Another Soldier That Didn't Support War Dies [Archive]

No Limit

29-09-2005, 03:37 PM

Take a good look at his picture, he died because of you neocons that yell how heroic this war is but don't have the balls to go over there and fight. You killed this man, now explain to his children why he had to die.

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/mesa/articles/0929m-allen29Z11.html

Sgt. Howard Paul Allen of Mesa fought in Iraq in a situation that frustrated him and at times depressed him.

Allen wrote Aug. 25: "You feel that bomb go off in your dreams, but it's not your buddy this time but you."

The 31-year-old Arizona Army National Guardsman and graduate of Paradise Valley High School was killed Monday in Baghdad when a bomb exploded near his vehicle.

....

He referred to Iraq as "hell" and found some solace on the Internet where he shared much of his life, even intimate details, over a period of years. He had posted three messages since he was sent to Iraq in March.

Through his LiveJournal on-line blogging, he connected with old friends, called his fellow soldiers "family," people who would be there for each other "in a heartbeat" if something went wrong.

"The main thing I want people to know is that the men and women he served with were everything," his wife, Patience, 31, a Web designer, said as she stood in her front yard Wednesday. "He volunteered for missions so his friends' lives would not be put on the line."

She said her husband expressed anti-war feelings after he went to Iraq, but he wasn't driven by it.

"He took that job extremely seriously," she said. "He did what they wanted him to do."

He wrote a Web log last Saturday, "Long lost friends," in which he said the only reason for America's involvement in Iraq is that President Bush wanted to better his father.

But to most of you neocons he was a traitor anyway. You all make me puke.

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20050928/capt.wxs10209282102.guardsman_killed_wxs102.jpg

CptStern

29-09-2005, 04:11 PM

gick

29-09-2005, 04:15 PM

Jeez, thats depressing.

No Limit

29-09-2005, 04:23 PM

hehe I dont think there's any more neocons left at HL2.net (I think you scared them away ;) ) ..I'm sure some still lurk but they havent posted in a long time

dear god that man has young kids ...no one deserves to die for nothing ..I wish Barbara lee/Conyers would hurry up already and get this investigation into impeachment started

here's how you can help if you're american (http://www.democrats.com/peoplesemailnetwork/39)

hold bush criminaly accountable for the needless deaths in iraq
As much as I love Conyers and think he should be president one day they can't do anything until Dems get power back, hopefully in 06. Remember, Republicans have blocked all inquiries into the lead up to war and there is nothing that can stop them from blocking this. Our only hope is that the american people wake up.

Jeez, thats depressing.

I seriously had tears in my eyes when I saw that picture with his children this morning, what's even more depressing is the fact there are almost 2,000 more just like him that you don't hear about.

CptStern

29-09-2005, 04:29 PM

As much as I love Conyers and think he should be president one day they can't do anything until Dems get power back, hopefully in 06. Remember, Republicans have blocked all inquiries into the lead up to war and there is nothing that can stop them from blocking this. Our only hope is that the american people wake up.

I think more americans are waking up to reality. People like Cindy Sheehan make people who usually couldnt care less about politics take notice. It's just a matter of time ..but for many it will be too late

I seriously had tears in my eyes when I saw that picture with his children this morning, what's even more depressing is the fact there are almost 2,000 more just like him that you don't hear about.

yup (http://www.sendatee.net/mozaic-lost.gif)

Kmack

29-09-2005, 05:19 PM

I think more americans are waking up to reality. People like Cindy Sheehan make people who usually couldnt care less about politics take notice. It's just a matter of time ..but for many it will be too late

I agree, but it will probably be on a much smaller scale then many of us would like to see. Unfortunatly (and this says much for the US and its citizens) turning a blind eye is much easier than caring, people who support the war will do so no matter what, unless they are DIRECTLY affected.

No Limit

29-09-2005, 05:26 PM

I agree, but it will probably be on a much smaller scale then many of us would like to see. Unfortunatly (and this says much for the US and its citizens) turning a blind eye is much easier than caring, people who support the war will do so no matter what, unless they are DIRECTLY affected.
That's not true. Its all about making people realize they are being lied to. In 2003, before the invasion, I was mostly prowar. I didn't really support what Bush was doing but because of the media lying to me I was convinced Saddam was a huge threat and needed to be taken out. A few months after the war I knew I was wrong but it was too late. We need to show everyone Bush is lying to them, as soon as we do that this country will change for the better. In less than a year Bush's approval went from about 55% to the 30s, people are waking up, just a little too late.

Teta_Bonita

29-09-2005, 05:34 PM

And this guy is one of thousands. ;( All of them died for some dumb war and no-one really even knows what this war is for. He died honorably and heroicly, but for what cause? So bush could pleasure his daddy in yet another way? :angry:
Take a good look at his picture, he died because of you neocons that yell how heroic this war is but don't have the balls to go over there and fight. You killed this man, now explain to his children why he had to die.
But to most of you neocons he was a traitor anyway. You all make me puke.

And why are you blaming the neocons for his demise? It's the Bush administration that sent him there (wether the necons support him or not), and the Iraqi's that killed him (duh?).

CptStern

29-09-2005, 05:45 PM

bush admin = neocons ...just look at the people who signed this (http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm)

No Limit

29-09-2005, 06:01 PM

And why are you blaming the neocons for his demise? It's the Bush administration that sent him there (wether the necons support him or not), and the Iraqi's that killed him (duh?).
All neocons were cheerleaders for this war. If they didn't blindly spread the misinformation this war would never have gotten the support it needed to start. They are as much to blame as Bush is. And yes, the people that did actually pulled the trigger are to blame also but I am skeptical if you are going to tell me that you wouldn't fight for your country if a foreign force invaded you.

Korgoth

29-09-2005, 06:39 PM

10 to 1 someone numbskull comes in here screamin about "well he volunteered" or "he should have read the fine print" blah blah blah, that doesn't change the fact that (ahem to use a clever protest slogan) bush lied, thousands died... but whats more important is that they are STILL DYING!!!!

Lt. Drebin

29-09-2005, 06:40 PM

dear god that man has young kids ...no one deserves to die for nothing ..I wish Barbara lee/Conyers would hurry up already and get this investigation into impeachment started

Quick question Stern.

Won't an impeachment, which probobly will never happen, simply put Cheney into office? I don't know if that's an acceptable resolution to me or many other Americans who want nothing more than to see this administration go down in flames.

Far more satisfying would be to see criminal charges brought against him and members of his administration after his term or during. Being impeached doesn't mean he's going to prison, right?

CptStern

29-09-2005, 06:47 PM

Quick question Stern.

Won't an impeachment, which probobly will never happen, simply put Cheney into office? I don't know if that's an acceptable resolution to me or many other Americans who want nothing more than to see this administration go down in flames.

Far more satisfying would be to see criminal charges brought against him and members of his administration after his term or during. Being impeached doesn't mean he's going to prison, right?

not necessarily ..if he's found guilty of criminal conduct than maybe ..there's a slim chance here

also it wouldnt matter if cheney came to office..it's not like he isnt in charge as it is ...see bush is a figurehead ..the people around him are the ones pulling the strings. Impeaching bush will more than just get rid of him ..it'll pretty much guarentee the neo-cons will lose power for future elections

Lt. Drebin

29-09-2005, 06:57 PM

also it wouldnt matter if cheney came to office..it's not like he isnt in charge as it is ...see bush is a figurehead ..the people around him are the ones pulling the strings. Impeaching bush will more than just get rid of him ..it'll pretty much guarentee the neo-cons will lose power for future elections

Good point, didn't really think of the future rammifications. No matter the process, someone or some group needs to pay for this utter attrocity.

lister

29-09-2005, 06:59 PM

the question is, why did he sign up to be a soldier? He must of known what would happen if anything like this way to occure. THE END

Korgoth

29-09-2005, 07:20 PM

the question is, why did he sign up to be a soldier? He must of known what would happen if anything like this way to occure. THE END

Damn i'm good :E

CptStern

29-09-2005, 07:55 PM

the question is, why did he sign up to be a soldier? He must of known what would happen if anything like this way to occure. THE END

to defend his homeland to serve his country

how is invading a country that posed no threat "serving" your country?

Razor

29-09-2005, 11:18 PM

The problem is, if American's were smarter and actually stood up and voted against him in 2004, there would be no need to impeach him.

The American's should of saw this coming, everyone else did, and 51% of the voters still put him back in the White House.

Icarusintel

29-09-2005, 11:26 PM

All neocons were cheerleaders for this war. If they didn't blindly spread the misinformation this war would never have gotten the support it needed to start. They are as much to blame as Bush is. And yes, the people that did actually pulled the trigger are to blame also but I am skeptical if you are going to tell me that you wouldn't fight for your country if a foreign force invaded you.
This is a gross generalization, and you know that, but of course all you want is a reaction, not a real discussion.. which is why I'm posting in the Politics forums less and less

Now, on topic, I'm sorry for his family, and sorry he had to die. I know he was in the National Guard and was not supposed to get called up for duty overseas, but at the same time I admire that he went with his fellow soldiers when he could have run away. Maybe I just get this from being at a military school, but there is something honorable about having a sense of duty and comraderie, and I respect him for that. He obviously didn't agree with the war, and I won't call his death a sacrifice. Hopefully his family can find some peace.

Glirk Dient

30-09-2005, 04:56 AM

Such a sad event.

However, to blame anyone other than the people that killed him for his death is pretty stupid. Heck you could even blame the government, Bush, congress all of them. However you can't possibly say conservatives are the reason he died. That is simply a moronic flame and nothing else, try to create something to debate about, not flame. Then again I wouldn't expect anything else from No Limit.

GhostBoi

30-09-2005, 09:17 PM

Top Secret

03-10-2005, 12:36 AM

The American's should of saw this coming, everyone else did, and 51% of the voters still put him back in the White House.

Thank you for not knowing how our voting system works. You may sit down now. Kerry would have won if Mr. Green wasn't in the race.

Steve

03-10-2005, 02:53 AM

He knew what he was getting into when he joined the army. If he didn't want to get killed in war, he shouldn't have.

Lemonking

03-10-2005, 03:31 AM

He knew what he was getting into when he joined the army. If he didn't want to get killed in war, he shouldn't have.

^ what he said

T.H.C.138

03-10-2005, 05:39 AM

Thank you for not knowing how our voting system works. You may sit down now. Kerry would have won if Mr. Green wasn't in the race.

thank you!!

so many people in other countries don't understand the way voting "works" here...

but then again at least half of America doesn't get it either!

Top Secret

03-10-2005, 05:54 AM

thank you!!

so many people in other countries don't understand the way voting "works" here...

but then again at least half of America doesn't get it either!

Haha, so true.

dream431ca

03-10-2005, 07:06 AM

CptStern

03-10-2005, 01:56 PM

Well..doesn't the military see this going on?? What bothers me is that they are continuing a fight that I think they see that the war is a bullshit war...they can put down their weapons and walk away if they see fit..right??

many in the military still believe the justifications behind the war ...others know better but are willing to let the casualties mount rather than losing face. IMHO the military should be pushing for Bush's impeachment/criminal investigation as they have the most to lose

Flyingdebris

03-10-2005, 11:03 PM

um...right...why did No-limit say that the guy was called a traitor by us? I'm not quite sure i follow

Edgar

04-10-2005, 02:55 AM

He knew what he was getting into when he joined the army. If he didn't want to get killed in war, he shouldn't have.

QFT
What he said.

DiSTuRbEd

04-10-2005, 03:10 AM

He knew what he was getting into when he joined the army. If he didn't want to get killed in war, he shouldn't have.

Yep, exactly, you don't join the army and not expect to sometime go to war.

No Limit

05-10-2005, 04:32 PM

This is a gross generalization, and you know that, but of course all you want is a reaction, not a real discussion.. which is why I'm posting in the Politics forums less and less

Bullshit. I am getting so sick of these dumb excuses from conservatives and others like you. Yes, I am looking for a reaction because debating with facts has proven pointless. No matter how many lies you point out to these idiot 'conservatives' you always get 'oh, he didn't know he was lying; prove he did'. No matter how many facts you show that this war was unjust and wrong you always get 'oh, hindsight is 20/20' from these idiot 'conservatives'. The only way to get a point across is to get to your emotions but then you still get idiot conservatives to post something along the lines of:

the question is, why did he sign up to be a soldier? He must of known what would happen if anything like this way to occure. THE END

and

However, to blame anyone other than the people that killed him for his death is pretty stupid. Heck you could even blame the government, Bush, congress all of them. However you can't possibly say conservatives are the reason he died. That is simply a moronic flame and nothing else, try to create something to debate about, not flame. Then again I wouldn't expect anything else from No Limit.

Now, that is not to say I don't respect any conservatives out there, I do. If you want to debate me with facts and you don't ignore my points trust me, I will be as respectful to you as I possibly can. But don't post excuses around here as to why you don't post here any more. I am coming here less and less each day because of excuses like that, when you post facts and you shut someone up with these facts suddenly they disappear. I can not find a single mature right winger on this board anymore, I wonder why that is.

No Limit

05-10-2005, 04:33 PM

He knew what he was getting into when he joined the army. If he didn't want to get killed in war, he shouldn't have.
Did you read the article? He joined to help his brothers and sisters. He was a hero. But that doesn't change the fact he didn't have to die, he died because of Bush's policies.

Do you not agree that is Bush didn't start this war he would still be alive?

redhollowpoint

05-10-2005, 06:33 PM

its his own fault for joining the national gaurd, you fight where your country sends you.

No Limit

05-10-2005, 07:10 PM

its his own fault for joining the national gaurd, you fight where your country sends you.
This is the most idiotic thing I have ever heard, how far has this neocon ideology clouded your judgement?

What you are saying is if you are brave enough to serve your country the president has a right to send you to an unjust war simply because he feels like it?

redhollowpoint

05-10-2005, 07:18 PM

This is the most idiotic thing I have ever heard, how far has this neocon ideology clouded your judgement?

What you are saying is if you are brave enough to serve your country the president has a right to send you to an unjust war simply because he feels like it?

no im saying he knew what he was getting into, he knew that a war could break out at any time, and he knew that enlisting in the national gaurd ment that he could possibly face war, and die. He did just that. I have enlisted into the marine corps, and i know taht i coudl go fight a war, one that i dont believe is just, but you take an oath to your country, and i will lay my life for it, and i would gladly lay my life for you, or any other liberal, i may not agree with point of view, but its freedom i would lay my life down for, and ill protect your freedom of speech, even if it means that i have to die doing it.

Solaris

05-10-2005, 07:27 PM

Sigh.

You do that quote injustice.

Your not dying for our rights your dying for oil, and imperialism.
Is that worth fighting for? Is it worth dying for?

redhollowpoint

05-10-2005, 07:30 PM

Sigh.

You do that quote injustice.

Your not dying for our rights your dying for oil, and imperialism.
Is that worth fighting for? Is it worth dying for?

.... imperialism? dying for oil? i havent seen any profit made off of iraq, let alone its oil. infact all i see getting rich is the opec nations because they are hording thier oil, and not selling it on the market.

Solaris

05-10-2005, 07:31 PM

Halliburton?

They give dick cheney one million a year.

CptStern

05-10-2005, 08:01 PM

no im saying he knew what he was getting into, he knew that a war could break out at any time, and he knew that enlisting in the national gaurd ment that he could possibly face war, and die. He did just that. I have enlisted into the marine corps, and i know taht i coudl go fight a war, one that i dont believe is just, but you take an oath to your country, and i will lay my life for it, and i would gladly lay my life for you, or any other liberal, i may not agree with point of view, but its freedom i would lay my life down for, and ill protect your freedom of speech, even if it means that i have to die doing it.

how is fighting in iraq defending "freedom" or "freedom of speech" ..are you that willing to throw your life away for something that doesnt even apply to Iraq?

No Limit

05-10-2005, 08:13 PM

no im saying he knew what he was getting into, he knew that a war could break out at any time, and he knew that enlisting in the national gaurd ment that he could possibly face war, and die. He did just that. I have enlisted into the marine corps, and i know taht i coudl go fight a war, one that i dont believe is just, but you take an oath to your country, and i will lay my life for it, and i would gladly lay my life for you, or any other liberal, i may not agree with point of view, but its freedom i would lay my life down for, and ill protect your freedom of speech, even if it means that i have to die doing it.
So:

What you are saying is if you are brave enough to serve your country the president has a right to send you to an unjust war simply because he feels like it?
----------

Flyingdebris

05-10-2005, 10:25 PM

regardless of whether the war is just or not, the man signed up out of his own free will and if he had half a brain, he knew the risks too.

He probably thought about it for a while considering his own reasons for signing up and the possible consequences that could entail joining a branch of the military. he didn't just amble into a recruitment office thinking that he'd be doing slumber parties and bake sales.

The fact of the matter is that if you join the military you understand that you will most likely fight and when people fight some people die, thats just how it works.

French Ninja

07-10-2005, 02:20 AM

Sigh.

You do that quote injustice.

Your not dying for our rights your dying for oil, and imperialism.
Is that worth fighting for? Is it worth dying for?
Where is this imperialism you keep talking about?
Invading two troubled countries with plans to reduce numbers in the coming years doesn't sound like an empire to me. :|

Kebean PFC

07-10-2005, 02:41 AM

the president has a right to send you
Yup. Sorry, but those are our laws.

Do you not agree that is Bush didn't start this war he would still be alive?
I happen to believe that when it is your time to die, it is your time. Nothing can change that and it does not apply to just the war, i actually believe it. According to a qoute like this is could argue that the Army saved his life becuase had he had not gone to basic, he would have gotten hit by a car.

so many people in other countries don't understand the way voting "works" here...

but then again at least half of America doesn't get it either!
QFT

Absinthe

07-10-2005, 02:54 AM

So many people are quick to jump in and defend legality while completely ignoring any sort of moral and ethical implications.

Yes, you fight where your country sends you. That doesn't make a war any more justified or acceptable and it certainly doesn't negate the waste of troop lives by default. If you can't make that distinction, then I truly pity you. I could understand your comments if this was a justified and worthwhile war. But to respond to unwilling troops in this context with "WELL DURR YOU KNOW YOU SIGNED THIS AND THAT" makes you a shallow human being. I don't think any soldier was banking on this sham of a conflict to take place.

Kebean PFC

07-10-2005, 02:55 AM

That doesn't make a war any more justified or acceptable and it certainly doesn't negate the waste of troop lives by default.
Now where did i say that?

Absinthe

07-10-2005, 02:59 AM

Now where did i say that?

Was I speaking to you directly?

All I'm saying is that pointing out the legality of something is pointless if you can't also back it up with practical, ethical, and moral substantiation. To dismiss these deaths as "Well, they signed the dotted line" is being nothing more than callous.

No Limit

07-10-2005, 03:10 AM

I happen to believe that when it is your time to die, it is your time. Nothing can change that and it does not apply to just the war, i actually believe it. According to a qoute like this is could argue that the Army saved his life becuase had he had not gone to basic, he would have gotten hit by a car.

I happen to believe that you smoke waaaaaay too much pot. ;)

Pesmerga

07-10-2005, 03:20 AM

Yes, he didn't support the war.

This must mean the entire war is corrupt, and only serves as a means to conduct ritualistic offerings to Satan himself.

Steve

07-10-2005, 04:22 AM

Did you read the article? He joined to help his brothers and sisters. He was a hero. But that doesn't change the fact he didn't have to die, he died because of Bush's policies.

Do you not agree that is Bush didn't start this war he would still be alive?
I agree completely. But whether or not it's because a president makes a bad decision, A SOLDIER HAS TO BE PREPARED TO GO TO WAR. Going to war means a possibility of dying. Doesn't matter WHY he joined.

TheSomeone

07-10-2005, 04:22 AM

He knew what he was getting into when he joined the army. If he didn't want to get killed in war, he shouldn't have.

You ever thought about him enlisting to defend his country, before the war was declared? He wanted to die for a just cause, not as Georgie's puppet.

Please, you insensitive retards, stop yelling "HE ENLISTED HE SHULD EXPECT TO DIE." The fact that he enlisted or not doesn't change the fact he died for no good reason.

Steve

07-10-2005, 04:32 AM

Wow. Calling me an insensitive retard gives you such an air of authority. Look, dude. I'm not saying he should expect to die. But soldiers die in war. The war is bullshit, but these soldiers joined the armed forces understanding that they would have to follow the orders of any commander-in-chief they were under, whether they agreed with it or not. Whether it was bullshit or not.

No Limit

07-10-2005, 04:39 AM

I agree completely. But whether or not it's because a president makes a bad decision, A SOLDIER HAS TO BE PREPARED TO GO TO WAR. Going to war means a possibility of dying. Doesn't matter WHY he joined.
I understand that completely. He knew of the risks which make him a hero. The point here is not that he didn't want to die, the point is him and about 2,000 other soliders and tens of thousands more of civillians didn't need to die. All of those deaths could have been avoided. What bugs the shit out of me is when people say oh well, he signed up so screw it. They are pretty much admitting the war is corrupt but it doesn't really matter, the guy signed up. I know what you are saying and I agree, but I think it is missing the point.

Tr0n

07-10-2005, 04:39 AM

Why would anyone basically go to war for any country I do not understand.

It's an endless cycle I guess. Yet only few people like me see it.

Steve

07-10-2005, 04:40 AM

I understand that completely. He knew of the risks which make him a hero. The point here is not that he didn't want to die, the point is him and about 2,000 other soliders and tens of thousands more of civillians didn't need to die. All of those deaths could have been avoided. What bugs the shit out of me is when people say oh well, he signed up so screw it. They are pretty much admitting the war is corrupt but it doesn't really matter, the guy signed up. I know what you are saying and I agree, but I think it is missing the point.
I suppose, yeah.