Creationists harrass Museums over Evolution exhibits

[CptStern]

from the "get a life you freakin wackos" file comes this story of creationists harrassing museums who have displays on evolution:


"Lenore Durkee, a retired biology professor, was volunteering as a docent at the Museum of the Earth here when she was confronted by a group of seven or eight people, creationists eager to challenge the museum exhibitions on evolution. "


"Similar efforts are under way or planned around the country as science museums and other institutions struggle to contend with challenges to the theory of evolution that they say are growing common and sometimes aggressive.

One company, called B.C. Tours "because we are biblically correct," even offers escorted visits to the Denver Museum of Science and Nature. Participants hear creationists' explanations for the exhibitions."

"It is no wonder that many biologists will simply refuse to debate creationists or I.D.ers," she said, using the abbreviation for intelligent design, a cousin of creationism. "It is as if they aren't listening."


source (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/20/science/20doce.html?ex=1284868800&en=5bb1960d35db9529&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss)

[Murray_H]

Christ on a bike, they'll take it as truth from a book that has been rigourously edited over 2000 years yet if someone presents them with evidence that they can touch/see, it's not true.

[diluted]

You've forced me to pull out this pic, Stern.

http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/9616/creationists4fy.jpg

[CptStern]

You've forced me to pull out this pic, Stern.

http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/9616/creationists4fy.jpg


lol! brilliant :laugh:

[Ikerous]

"It is no wonder that many biologists will simply refuse to debate creationists or I.D.ers," she said, using the abbreviation for intelligent design, a cousin of creationism. "It is as if they aren't listening."
I've seen a video where an ID guy debated with a college professor and won
AFAIK (Which isnt much) he hasn't lost a debate yet on the subject
I think he's a former bio professor

[CptStern]

"Participants hear creationists' explanations for the exhibitions"


and here we have a fossil ..isnt it pretty? god made this lovely rock to look like an animal that had died a long long long time ago (during the time of Noah) ...we thank ye oh lord for making this wonderous rock ...and here we have a display about Darwin ..the church excommunicated him when he admitted he was in league with satan ...moving right along here's what to untrained eye looks like a dinosaur ..it's actually the remains of a sea serpent that died during the great flood and somehow grew legs and walked up to the badlands of alberta and lay there for hundreds of years ...this concludes our tour, please come back next week when we tour the planetarium, where we'll discuss more of god's wonderous miracles like the sun ..which is the center of the universe ...please exit to the left and leave the blinders with my assistant ..thanks for coming"

[CptStern]

I've seen a video where an ID guy debated with a college professor and won
AFAIK (Which isnt much) he hasn't lost a debate yet on the subject
I think he's a former bio professor


link? I find that hard to believe since ID isnt really based on anything concrete like facts


"Adherents of ID claim it stands on equal footing with the current scientific theories regarding the origin of life and the origin of the universe [1]. This claim has not been accepted by the scientific community and intelligent design does not constitute a research program within the science of biology. Despite ID sometimes being refered to popularly and in the media as "Intelligent Design Theory", it is not recognized as a scientific theory and has been categorized by the mainstream scientific community as creationist pseudoscience. The National Academy of Sciences has said that Intelligent Design "and other claims of supernatural intervention in the origin of life" are not science because their claims cannot be tested by experiment and propose no new hypotheses of their own "

[Ikerous]

link? I find that hard to believe since ID isnt really based on anything concrete like facts
I watched a sixteen hour long video seminar jam packed with the science behind Creationism.. theres definitely a lot of science behind it (Albeit misguided science I'm sure)

The debate video i watched was on VHS so i can't link to that

It was all by Kent Hovind though (http://www.drdino.com/)
And yes, I realize the fact that its him alone may make my entire post mute XD
(If you google his name you'll find like a million sites bashing him)

You can watch the seminars for free on his site though if you're at all interested in the science behind the ideas

(Oh yea, and I dont believe in ID or creationism... i'm just saying)

Most of the science used is just manipulation of the facts to propagate their ideas though

[DeusExMachina]

"Participants hear creationists' explanations for the exhibitions"


and here we have a fossil ..isnt it pretty? god made this lovely rock to look like an animal that had died a long long long time ago (during the time of Noah) ...we thank ye oh lord for making this wonderous rock ...and here we have a display about Darwin ..the church excommunicated him when he admitted he was in league with satan ...moving right along here's what to untrained eye looks like a dinosaur ..it's actually the remains of a sea serpent that died during the great flood and somehow grew legs and walked up to the badlands of alberta and lay there for hundreds of years ...this concludes our tour, please come back next week when we tour the planetarium, where we'll discuss more of god's wonderous miracles like the sun ..which is the center of the universe ...please exit to the left and leave the blinders with my assistant ..thanks for coming"


I love when you ask a Creationist or IDer about fossils, their usual reply is "The Devil put them there to trick us" or "God put them there to test us."

[Glirk Dient]

Funny how the Bible was written by man...

[Axyon]

I watched a sixteen hour long video seminar jam packed with the science behind Creationism.. theres definitely a lot of science behind it (Albeit misguided science I'm sure)

The debate video i watched was on VHS so i can't link to that

It was all by Kent Hovind though (http://www.drdino.com/)
And yes, I realize the fact that its him alone may make my entire post mute XD
(If you google his name you'll find like a million sites bashing him)

You can watch the seminars for free on his site though if you're at all interested in the science behind the ideas

(Oh yea, and I dont believe in ID or creationism... i'm just saying)You pretty much nailed it with the 'mute post'-'Kent Hovind' thing. The man will argue black is ****ing white.

Oh, and link. (http://www.kent-hovind.com/)

[The Monkey]

Only in America.

/me runs.

[Ikerous]

I love when you ask a Creationist or IDer about fossils, their usual reply is "The Devil put them there to trick us" or "God put them there to test us."
I've never heard a creationist say that...
Most creationists i know believe the same things about fossils as evolutionists
They just believe they originate later in history

Funny how the Bible was written by man...
Actually it was written by God, He just used man
(Or so a creationist would say..)

You pretty much nailed it with the 'mute post'-'Kent Hovind' thing. The man will argue black is ****ing white.

Oh, and link. (http://www.kent-hovind.com/)
Haha, yea, i know this
But he still wins in debates with serious college bio professors
Which just amuses the hell of me

[CptStern]

I watched a sixteen hour long video seminar jam packed with the science behind Creationism.. theres definitely a lot of science behind it (Albeit misguided science I'm sure)

The debate video i watched was on VHS so i can't link to that

It was all by Kent Hovind though (http://www.drdino.com/)
And yes, I realize the fact that its him alone may make my entire post mute XD
(If you google his name you'll find like a million sites bashing him)

You can watch the seminars for free on his site though if you're at all interested in the science behind the ideas

(Oh yea, and I dont believe in ID or creationism... i'm just saying)

Most of the science used is just manipulation of the facts to propagate their ideas though



sorry but I just cant bring myself to read much further than this:



"Straight from the Institute for Creation Science Evangelism – would you like to learn the importance of Creation, the impossibility of the Big Bang, how to prove the Earth is not billions of years old, the truth about Cave Men and Dinosaurs, why Evolution is dangerous, lies in the Public School Textbooks, where Oil, Coal, and Natural Gas comes from, how we can see light from Stars billions of light years away, and much, much more?"

"You will also learn how to better be equipped to witness to an evolutionist. This course will better prepare you to “be ready always to give an answer”, and even earn a college credit in doing so."



utter hogwash

[DeusExMachina]

I've never heard a creationist say that...
Most creationists i know believe the same things about fossils as evolutionists
They just believe they originate later in history



But how does that work? The Bible never talks about dinosaurs and for a earth that's only been around for 6000 years, those fossils say at least 65 million years.

[CptStern]

""look" like they're 65 million years old ...how do you know god didnt intend for it to look that way?"


"for what purpose?"




"....................god works in mysterious ways"

[Ikerous]

But how does that work? The Bible never talks about dinosaurs and for a earth that's only been around for 6000 years, those fossils say at least 65 million years.
We think things are so old cuz of Carbon dating (Or other radioactive dating methods)

If the earth is actually 6 thousand years old, then most radioactive isotopes havent reached equilibrium yet, thus making radioactive dating useless
So the method only works if the earth is really old, and we only know its old cuz of that method (See the bad logic?)

Disclaimer: I realize why this is a bad arguement, i was just trying to explain how they think that way

And just personally, i have more respect for the ID guys going to a museum trying to learn than i do for some athiest who has never pondered religion in his life and sits at home watching south park content with not knowing anything, or someone who just assumes evolution is true w/o ever questioning it

[Llama]

Think of it this way...if their are so many morons on Earth, at least you get the satisfaction of being above the crowds of idiots :E

[Solaris]

And just personally, i have more respect for the ID guys going to a museum trying to learn than i do for some athiest who has never pondered religion in his life and sits at home watching south park content with not knowing anything, or someone who just assumes evolution is true w/o ever questioning it

I dont. Theres no evidence for religion, so for not even pondering something that has no evidence, earns my respect.

-Solaris out

[Murray_H]

"Genesis 7:2 states that Noah saved two of every representative "kind" of land animal on the ark. Noah would have taken young specimens, not huge, older creatures. Dinosaurs would have emerged from the ark to inhabit an entirely different world. Instead of a warm, mild climate worldwide, they would have found a harsh climate which soon settled into an ice age. If climatic hardships did not cause the dinosaur's extinction, man's tendency to destroy probably did."

So not only does the author of this article believe Noah actually did round up two of every animal, he got dinosaurs in there as well? Oh but wait, the author knows Noah's methods - he would have taken the young dinosaurs that don't need as much room (even though, at a guess, a baby Brachiosaurus would still be quite massive).

I suppose he used a dog he had handy to round up a couple of Allosaurus and coaxed some Iguanodons into the ark with a few beans.

And then the dinosaurs all died because of climatic hardship. Or man. So not only was man around at the time of the dinosaurs, he quite possibly killed them all.

[The Mullinator]

Think of it this way...if their are so many morons on Earth, at least you get the satisfaction of being above the crowds of idiots :E
You only get satisfaction though when you can prove someone wrong or convince them otherwise. Just knowing you are right doesn't give any satisfaction. Believe me, I know.

[DeusExMachina]

We think things are so old cuz of Carbon dating (Or other radioactive dating methods)

If the earth is actually 6 thousand years old, then most radioactive isotopes havent reached equilibrium yet, thus making radioactive dating useless
So the method only works if the earth is really old, and we only know its old cuz of that method (See the bad logic?)

Disclaimer: I realize why this is a bad arguement, i was just trying to explain how they think that way

Yeah I can see your point, the universe is an enigma.

And just personally, i have more respect for the ID guys going to a museum trying to learn than i do for some athiest who has never pondered religion in his life and sits at home watching south park content with not knowing anything, or someone who just assumes evolution is true w/o ever questioning it

I agree.

Though, if your an atheist/agnostic/freethinker who actually did ponder religion and did look into different theories, then you have my respect too <3.

[AzzMan]

Just saw a segment on the Daily Show, where creationists argue all animals were vegetarians before Adam ate the apple or w/e the hell god got pissed over. One guy was commenting on a Velocoraptor fossil, "what did they use those teeth and talons for? why to chase down and kill plants trying to run away of course" . in a sarcastic tone of course. Lewis Black ftw :D

[Ikerous]

stuff
It's not two of every animal, its two of every kind...
You also have to take into account that before the flood nothing was carniverous, so getting two baby dinosaurs on a boat wouldn't be all that challenging
Damn, azzman beat me to it :P
I dont. Theres no evidence for religion, so for not even pondering something that has no evidence, earns my respect.
Did you read any of my other posts....?
Though, if your an atheist/agnostic/freethinker who actually did ponder religion and did look into different theories, then you have my respect too <3.
I agrea whole heartedly.
I've always respected anyone that could defend their beliefs with good logic, even if i don't share their views

[CptStern]

We think things are so old cuz of Carbon dating (Or other radioactive dating methods)

If the earth is actually 6 thousand years old, then most radioactive isotopes havent reached equilibrium yet, thus making radioactive dating useless
So the method only works if the earth is really old, and we only know its old cuz of that method (See the bad logic?)

Disclaimer: I realize why this is a bad arguement, i was just trying to explain how they think that way


that's a horrible explanation :)

And just personally, i have more respect for the ID guys going to a museum trying to learn than i do for some athiest who has never pondered religion in his life and sits at home watching south park content with not knowing anything, or someone who just assumes evolution is true w/o ever questioning it

well this athiest grew up catholic but had an awakening when he was 11 ..I dont watch south park either

[Murray_H]

"There is a danger of becoming so indoctrinated by evolutionary thinking that we become closed to the creation alternative. As concerned parents, we need to be careful what our children are taught by making sure they are hearing all of the facts. By teaching them the evidence for creation and the fallacies of evolutionary explanations, they will be directed toward God instead of away from Him."

What a hypocritical nonce. He goes on about children not getting all the facts, which I was prepared to commend him for, as it seemed he wanted kids to get a balanced view to make up their own minds. That last sentence just shows how narrow-minded he is, even though he criticises turning away from a creation alternative.

[MrWhite]

Creationism, as much as I am a spiritual person, is utter crap. We all have the same "God", if you wish to call it that, just other's view it differen't ways, i mean hell, some don't even wish to view it at all. La la la, kitty meow.

Live and let live and rejoice because a winner is you!

[Ikerous]

that's a horrible explanation :)

well this athiest grew up catholic but had an awakening when he was 11 ..I dont watch south park either
Yea ^_^ I know, my explanations of stuff sucks, but you got the gist ;-)

And i know that you, if anyone, can defend their beliefs, thus earning my respect
(Not that its worth anything.. but still, i'm EXTREME, so you should be happy)

[Murray_H]

It's not two of every animal, its two of every kind...
You also have to take into account that before the flood nothing was carniverous, so getting two baby dinosaurs on a boat wouldn't be all that challenging

Please tell me you aren't being serious!

[riomhaire]

I'm getting a good laugh from this site. (http://www.drdino.com)

[Ikerous]

Please tell me you aren't being serious!
I was speaking from the point of view of a Christian...
They obviously believe in the Bible which says that
And theres no way to prove dinosaurs didn't eat meat...
I'm getting a good laugh from this site. (http://www.drdino.com)
Isn't it awesome XD

[AzzMan]

Please tell me you aren't being serious!

supposedly before adam and eve everything was an herbivore. so by the time of the ark, they would have been predators. I mean it makes sense, when youre a large pit viper, you need those large fangs and venom to take down those quick moving tomato plants. /sarcasm

[Murray_H]

And anyway, if he took just two of every "kind", does that mean he took two insects, two reptiles, two plants?

How did Noah the taxonomist divide everything up? And after he took two of every kind, how do you presume we have such a diverse range of creatures today? Surely if only two of each kind was taken (e.g. birds), we would only have a sparrow and a robin today?

Perhaps they evolved into different......oh wait, evolution is rubbish!

[Ikerous]

How did Noah the taxonomist divide everything up? And after he took two of every kind, how do you presume we have such a diverse range of creatures today? Surely if only two of each kind was taken (e.g. birds), we would only have a sparrow and a robin today?

Perhaps they evolved into different......oh wait, evolution is rubbish!
Creationists believe in micro evolution...
They're missguided not retarded

[Murray_H]

I was speaking from the point of view of a Christian...
They obviously believe in the Bible which says that
And theres no way to prove dinosaurs didn't eat meat...

Isn't it awesome XD

Ah right fair enough.

Well I think if you can take the leap of faith that there a man was crucified and walked the Earth again 3 days later, you can take the leap of faith that if a tiger has sharp teeth and claws and eats meat today, a dinosaur with sharp teeth and claws would probably ate meat too :p

Whoops, sorry mis-read what you wrote, I still mean what I said but I realise it doesn't apply the text I put in bold :p

[Solaris]

^Incorrect, Try again.


/Solaris

[Ikerous]

Either that or God (Being omnipotent and all) knew they (Sharp teeth and claws) would come in handy pretty soon (eg after the flood when they became carniverous) and decided to start them off with it

[DeusExMachina]

Creationism, as much as I am a spiritual person, is utter crap. We all have the same "God", if you wish to call it that, just other's view it differen't ways, i mean hell, some don't even wish to view it at all. La la la, kitty meow.

Live and let live and rejoice because a winner is you!

You a pantheist or a universalist?

[Murray_H]

^Incorrect, Try again.


/Solaris

That was useful, care to expand on what was incorrect so I may become enlightened?

So this is the story (realise the last time I was educated religiously was about 4 years ago, and I didn't care/pay attention then :p)

Noah is told there is going to be a massive flood
Noah is told to build and ark and select two of every "kind" of animal (although what specifies as a kind?)
Noah builds said ark, world experiences said flood
Noah releases animals
Through micro-evolution, the diversity we experience today stemmed from the two of every creature Noah took on the ark

What sort of time frames do we have between Noah getting told about the flood and the flood occuring and the time between Noah releasing the animals and our time today?

[CptStern]

Either that or God (Being omnipotent and all) knew they (Sharp teeth and claws) would come in handy pretty soon (eg after the flood when they became carniverous) and decided to start them off with it


yet for some strange reason they only ate other dinasaurs, quickly died off became fossilised over night and for some strange reason appear to be millions of years old ..predating things like the flood (yes geological records prove their was a massive flood in what was the civilized world back then ...but then again with a limited knowledge of the world around them citizens of new orleans could rightfully claim that katarine was the "great flood")

not too mention that dust settled from asteroid strikes pre-date the flood, are also found in the geological strata (http://www.scientific-religious.com/geological%20strata.gif)

oh and lastly ..2 of the same species can NOT propagate an entire species.. birth defects would surely render the second generation sterile

[AzzMan]

yet for some strange reason they only ate other dinasaurs, quickly died off became fossilised over night and for some strange reason appear to be millions of years old ..predating things like the flood (yes geological records prove their was a massive flood in what was the civilized world back then ...but then again with a limited knowledge of the world around them citizens of new orleans could rightfully claim that katarine was the "great flood")

not too mention that dust settled from asteroid strikes pre-date the flood, are also found in the geological strata (http://www.scientific-religious.com/geological%20strata.gif)

oh and lastly ..2 of the same species can NOT propagate an entire species.. birth defects would surely render the second generation sterile

pwnage

[Axyon]

yet for some strange reason they only ate other dinasaurs, quickly died off became fossilised over night and for some strange reason appear to be millions of years old ..predating things like the flood (yes geological records prove their was a massive flood in what was the civilized world back then ...but then again with a limited knowledge of the world around them citizens of new orleans could rightfully claim that katarine was the "great flood")

not too mention that dust settled from asteroid strikes pre-date the flood, are also found in the geological strata (http://www.scientific-religious.com/geological%20strata.gif)

oh and lastly ..2 of the same species can NOT propagate an entire species.. birth defects would surely render the second generation sterileI'm also interested as to why god made some species of Dinosaur carnivorous, and others herbivore, even though they too possessed these sharp teeth and claws before this mighty 'flood'.

[Pesmerga]

No one has free will time is linear we have no purpose stop trying to ****ing control the world with your ideas there's no point no one gives a shit and you suck.

[Murray_H]

http://www.drdino.com/articles.php?spec=77

1. Over 250 Flood legends from all parts of the world have been found. Most have similarities to the Genesis story.

2. Noah’s ark was built only to float, not to sail anywhere. Many ark scholars believe that the ark was a "barge" shape, not a pointed "boat" shape. This would greatly increase the cargo capacity. Scoffers have pointed out that the largest sailing ships were less than 300 feet because of the problem of twisting and flexing the boat. These ships had giant masts, and sails to catch the wind. Noah's ark need neither of those and therefore had far less torsional stress.

3. Even using the small 18-inch cubit (my height is 6-ft. 1-in. and I have a 21-in. cubit) the ark was large enough to hold all the required animals, people, and food with room to spare.

4. The length-to-width ratio of 6 to 1 is what shipbuilders today often use. This is the best ratio for stability in stormy weather. (God thinks of everything!)

5. The ark may have had a "moon-pool" in the center. The larger ships would have a hole in the center of the bottom of the boat with walls extending up into the ship. There are several reasons for this feature:
* It allowed water to go up into the hole as the ship crested waves. This would be needed to relieve strain on longer ships.
* The rising and lowering water acted as a piston to pump fresh air in and out of the ship. This would prevent the buildup of dangerous gasses from all the animals on board.
* The hole was a great place to dump garbage into the ocean without going outside.

6. The ark may have had large drogue (anchor) stones suspended over the sides to keep it more stable in rough weather. Many of these stones have been found in the region where the ark landed.

7. Noah lived 950 years! Many Bible scholars believe the pre-Flood people were much larger than modern man. Skeletons over 11 feet tall have been found! If Noah were taller, his cubit (elbow to fingertip) would have been much larger also. This would make the ark larger by the same ratio. See Seminar tape #2 for more info on this.

8. God told Noah to bring two of each kind (seven of some), not of each species or variety. Noah had only two of the dog kind, which would include the wolves, coyotes, foxes, mutts, etc. The "kind" grouping is probably closer to our modern family division in taxonomy, and would greatly reduce the number of animals on the ark. Animals have diversified into many varieties in the last 4400 years since the Flood. This diversification is not anything similar to great claims that the evolutionists teach. (They teach, "Kelp can turn into Kent," given enough time!)

9. Noah did not have to get the animals. God brought them to him (Gen. 6:20, "shall come to thee").

10. Only land-dwelling, air-breathing animals had to be included on the ark (Gen. 7:15, "in which is the breath of life," 7:22). Noah did not need to bring all the thousands of insects varieties.

11. Many animals sleep, hibernate, or become very inactive during bad weather.

12. All animals (and people) were vegetarians before and during the Flood according to Gen. 1:20-30 with Gen. 9:3.

13. The pre-Flood people were probably much smarter and more advanced than people today. The longer life spans, Adam’s direct contact with God, and the fact that they could glean the wisdom of many generations that were still alive would greatly expand their knowledge base.

14. The Bible says that the highest mountains were covered by 15 cubits of water. This is half the height of the ark. The ark was safe from scraping bottom at all times.

[B] 15. The large mountains, as we have them today, did not exist until after the Flood when "the mountains arose and the valleys sank down" (Ps. 104:5-9, Gen. 8:3-8).

16. There is enough water in the oceans right now to cover the earth 8,000 feet deep if the surface of the earth were smooth.

17. Many claim to have seen the ark in recent times in the area in which the Bible says it landed. There are two primary schools of thought about the actual site of the ark (see my Creation Seminar Part 3 video for more on this). Much energy and time has been expended to prove both views. Some believe the ark is on Mt. Ararat, covered by snow (CBS showed a one-hour special in 1993 about this site). The other group believes the ark is seventeen miles south of Mt. Ararat in a valley called "the valley of eight" (8 souls on the ark). The Bible says the ark landed in the "mountains" of Ararat, not necessarily on the mountain itself.

18. The continents were not separated until 100-300 years after the Flood (Gen. 10:25). The people and animals had time to migrate anywhere on earth by then. See Seminar Part 6 for more information.
19. The top 3,000 feet of Mt. Everest (from 26,000-29,000 feet) is made up of sedimentary rock packed with seashells and other ocean-dwelling animals.

20. Sedimentary rock is found all over the world. Sedimentary rock is formed in water.

21. Petrified clams in the closed position (found all over the world) testify to their rapid burial while they were still alive, even on top of Mount Everest.

22. Bent rock layers, fossil graveyards, and poly-strata fossils are best explained by a Flood.

23. People choose to not believe in the Flood because it speaks of the judgment of God on sin (2 Pet. 3:3-8).

I bolded the 'interesting' bits (although the whole thing is 'interesting' I just didn't bold it all :p). How come he doesn't mention the massive amounts of food needed not only to feed two of every kind for 40 days and 40 nights but the giants of humans that were around in those days.

Funny how Noah didn't have to get the insects on his barge, I assume they were all pond skaters and were quite happy on the surface of the water for a month.

[CptStern]

I'm also interested as to why god made some species of Dinosaur carnivorous, and others herbivore, even though they too possessed these sharp teeth and claws before this mighty 'flood'.


"........................... god works in mysterious ways"

[riomhaire]

"Yet this whole idea of dinosaurs turning into birds is based more on faith than scientific fact."
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

"Supposed contradiction # 3:

How many men did David kill, 700 (II Sam. 10:18) or 7,000 (I Chron 19:18)?

1. II Sam. 10:18 "And the Syrians fled before Israel; and David slew the men of seven hundred chariots of the Syrians,"
2. I Chron. 19:18 "But the Syrians fled before Israel; and David slew of the Syrians seven thousand men which fought in chariots,"

Explanation of supposed contradiction:

Since they had ten men per chariot both verses are fine."
SOME F*CKING CHARIOTS!

"Deuteronomy 23:1 A castrate may not enter the assembly of the Lord."
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

"Jeremiah 32:18 God shows love to thousands, but brings punishment for the sins of their fathers to many children."
God's a bit of an asshole

"Matthew 5:22 Anyone who calls another a fool is liable to Hell."
"Matthew 23:17-19 Jesus twice calls the Pharisees blind fools."

"Matthew 5:39, Matthew 5:44 Jesus says: "Do not resist evil..."
OK, I'll give you the full quote
"Do not resist evil. Love your enemies."

"God does not believe in atheists
His presence from creation is quite clear
God does not believe in atheists
It takes a fool to tell him he's not here

God believes atheists can get born again
And become a new creation,
But they'd best admit the world around them first
And ask for their salvation
But to only cry, "Recycle!" is the worst

God believes atheists do have certain rights
To seek and search the scriptures
It says, "Come now, let us reason" that's for them
But it doesn't give them reason to
Make up what God is saying
Until it's no true benefit to them

Blee dop, sklee dop, sklee dilly dilly
Bah donna bee on a Saturday night
If that sounded like nonsense to you too,
Those schools have got some books for you "
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

"The Bible teaches that mankind was created perfect, without flaws."
If anyone thinks that's true then they should have a look at George Bush. Actually. The Adam and Eve story shows why people are such idiots: Imagine the amount of inbreading humanity would have to go through to get from 2 people to 2 billion!

"The reason brothers and sisters cannot marry today is because they are likely to have similar DNA errors leading to children with birth defects."
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[Murray_H]

http://www.drdino.com/articles.php?spec=76

That page makes me so mad. It's up to the people who believe in the theory of evolution to explain every little detail, where as the creationists can just sit back and say 'God did it, yeah that too, God, God, God again, God's work, God'

[CptStern]

http://www.drdino.com/articles.php?spec=76

That page makes me so mad. It's up to the people who believe in the theory of evolution to explain every little detail, where as the creationists can just sit back and say 'God did it, yeah that too, God, God, God again, God's work, God'

sorry couldnt read past:


"it is just a pagan religion masquerading as science"

[The Mullinator]

Basically if I am having an argument with someone who is religious and they end up resorting to the "god works in mysterious ways" or "God did that to test us" I usually take that to mean that I have won the argument and that I have come as close as you possibly can to making a "creationist" accept that they may have been wrong.

Another thing I love about Christianity is how they refer to "Pagan" religions. So many of Christianity's current traditions originate from Pagan traditions. The only reason "Pagan" has come to mean something bad is because it was the churches way of declaring all other non-christian religions evil so as to ensure people only worshiped the Christian god.

[Murray_H]

I wonder what the world would be like if a science encyclopedia and the bible changed places.....I for one would have something to read if I ever stopped over in a hotel.

[The Mullinator]

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/20/science/20doce.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5088&en=5bb1960d35db9529&ex=1284868800&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
May have to go through a free registration to view.

Looks like museums are developing a strategy for this.

[Absinthe]

Creationists are acting like morons! Surprise!

[Kangy]

I've got a strategy, and it involves tazer guns :)

[CptStern]

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/20/science/20doce.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5088&en=5bb1960d35db9529&ex=1284868800&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
May have to go through a free registration to view.

Looks like museums are developing a strategy for this.

hehe that's the link on the first page of this thread

[The Mullinator]

hehe that's the link on the first page of this thread
derka derka... I thought this was a followup. :p

[CptStern]

derka derka... I thought this was a followup. :p


hehe my fault for not touching on the follow up

[Ikerous]

yet for some strange reason they only ate other dinasaurs, quickly died off became fossilised over night and for some strange reason appear to be millions of years old
...
No, They ate anything, including humans, but obviously something that big would be hunted and killed if not just for food and trinkets but for safety
(Also the word dinosaur was made up in the 20th century, before then there was no term for em. Perhaps dinosaurs inspired dragon myths)

not too mention that dust settled from asteroid strikes pre-date the flood, are also found in the geological strata (http://www.scientific-religious.com/geological%20strata.gif)
Again, scientists have no way of knowing how old those fossils or layers are.

oh and lastly ..2 of the same species can NOT propagate an entire species.. birth defects would surely render the second generation sterile
Originally there were no genetics defects, God obviously created everything in a perfect manner. Thats why adam and eve's family was able to populate the earth. The flood only happened some 1500 years after creation

[bliink]

The flood only happened some 1500 years after creation

ohh... dont get me started on that noah stuff..

you couldnt build an arc big enough to house the neccessary 100-200 million insects and keep ALL of them alive. forget the rest of the creatures!

and how the hell were people supposed to gather every animal? by the time you got the last ones, the first ones would have lived out their lives completely and died. What about insects that die in a number of days? the flood was for 40, and how did the water dissapear fast enough to provide the habitats that each specific animal needs??!

what about carnivores? they would starve to death while they waited for the only two gazelles on earth to breed enough to provide a family of gazelles that would feed a family of tigers

the whole thing is crazily stupid, and I dont want to offend anyone who believes in it, but if so, at least try and think about how damn impossible it would be, from the logistics level, to the environmental level.. it is 100% impossible... the mere idea that people today who know that more than one continent exists can believe in that is a mighty depressing thought!

[Absinthe]

Most rational theists see the bible stories as figurative, acting as lessons rather than historical fact.

Just hope we can make that distinction so we don't give bashing where it isn't due. ;)

[Ikerous]

ohh... dont get me started on that noah stuff..

you couldnt build an arc big enough to house the neccessary 100-200 million insects and keep ALL of them alive. forget the rest of the creatures!

and how the hell were people supposed to gather every animal? by the time you got the last ones, the first ones would have lived out their lives completely and died. What about insects that die in a number of days? the flood was for 40, and how did the water dissapear fast enough to provide the habitats that each specific animal needs??!

what about carnivores? they would starve to death while they waited for the only two gazelles on earth to breed enough to provide a family of gazelles that would feed a family of tigers

the whole thing is crazily stupid, and I dont want to offend anyone who believes in it, but if so, at least try and think about how damn impossible it would be, from the logistics level, to the environmental level.. it is 100% impossible... the mere idea that people today who know that more than one continent exists can believe in that is a mighty depressing thought!
Lol, the funny thing is that every single one of those points were addressed in this thread and it showed just how logical it really can be

[kirovman]

...Again, scientists have no way of knowing how old those fossils or layers are.


Because every year has a distinct geological layer perhaps? You can count the layers. An analogy is counting the number of rings within a tree, or seeing how many layers in an Antartic ice core. And you know what? In big global events such as a dusty atmosphere, the evidence all correlates together to give the same year of event(or even same month) through a multitude of techniques.
The fact that these techniques compliment each other is a big indicator that they work, unless God's playing tricks. But why would God do that? God values honesty, right? I'm no geologist, but I have seen enough evidence to suggest that there isn't a big geologist global conspiracy against creationists.

Originally there were no genetics defects, God obviously created everything in a perfect manner. Thats why adam and eve's family was able to populate the earth. The flood only happened some 1500 years after creation
So why introduce defects afterwards? Doesn't the bible also say that incest is wrong, regardless of consideration of defects?

[el Chi]

It was all by Kent Hovind though (http://www.drdino.com/)
Yes, I sort of lose some respect for this fellow for the following video. (http://www.dinosauradventureland.com/index.php?content=games.php&game=behemoth) Well, amongst other things.
Dinosaurs were a numerous, varied family of animals, yet here he's using a shakey, contrived description of one species of dinosaur from a singular passage?


Nevertheless, on topic: I find it sickening in the extreme that these people feel they have the right to travel around stamping on others' beliefs. If a group of fervent paleontologists or biologists turned up at a church (not to mention a nationwide tour of churches) shouting down the congregation for believing in ID, these people would be disgusted. They have no right to do the same to museums.

[Tr0n]

Creationism, as much as I am a spiritual person, is utter crap. We all have the same "God", if you wish to call it that, just other's view it differen't ways, i mean hell, some don't even wish to view it at all. La la la, kitty meow.

Live and let live and rejoice because a winner is you!My thoughts exactly.

[Mr-Fusion]

You also have to take into account that before the flood nothing was carniverous, so getting two baby dinosaurs on a boat wouldn't be all that challenging
What? ...

[bliink]

Lol, the funny thing is that every single one of those points were addressed in this thread and it showed just how logical it really can be

no it doesnt... it was completely irrational pseudoscience thats not based on anything but "you cant prove otherwise" or "the bible says this" or "my non-scientific, skewed test shows that..."

I mean seriously look at what I found on that site thats being thrown around here:
Noah did not have to get the animals. God brought them to him (Gen. 6:20, "shall come to thee"). "bible says this"

Only land-dwelling, air-breathing animals had to be included on the ark (Gen. 7:15, "in which is the breath of life," 7:22). Noah did not need to bring all the thousands of insects varieties. ok, so he didn't bring the millions of insect varieties... how exactly are they supposed to exist now then??

What about birds? you have any idea how long a pigeon will last if it cant land? not long.


All animals (and people) were vegetarians before and during the Flood according to Gen. 1:20-30 with Gen. 9:3.
absolutely 100% no way this is right. Looking at teeth, current eating habbits, fossils, and studies of animal instincts have taught us this scientifically, with proper scientific method... simply saying "it can't be proven otherwise" is not an argument. The onus is on the creationists to prove their point because its the point that goes absolutely against every developed bit of science and logic.

The large mountains, as we have them today, did not exist until after the Flood when "the mountains arose and the valleys sank down" (Ps. 104:5-9, Gen. 8:3-8). ok, the same site says the flood was 4400 years ago... geological formations such as what we have now CAN NOT be created in that time. we have TESTABLE, ACCURATE science to show us this... errosion can be predicted extremely well, there are hundreds of years worth of science to back this up

There is enough water in the oceans right now to cover the earth 8,000 feet deep if the surface of the earth were smooth.

the earth was never a smooth sphere, what about tectonic plates and the observable evidence of their movement? thats why we have ocean trenches and mountain ranges...

# The continents were not separated until 100-300 years after the Flood (Gen. 10:25). The people and animals had time to migrate anywhere on earth by then. See Seminar Part 6 for more information.

our continents became what they are from a single landmass on a flat sphere in 4100-4300 years????!


Sedimentary rock is found all over the world. Sedimentary rock is formed in water.

I assume this proves somehow there was a flood? how about all the other ways sedimentary rock is formed? compaction of land particles, buildup through time, crystilisation of mineral rock

Bent rock layers, fossil graveyards, and poly-strata fossils are best explained by a Flood.

hmmm... no..

# People choose to not believe in the Flood because it speaks of the judgment of God on sin (2 Pet. 3:3-8).

or because they did year 5 science.

[OCybrManO]

*GASP*

A moderator made a double post?!? I bet it's going to disappear...

[bliink]

*GASP*

A moderator made a double post?!? I bet it's going to disappear...

you bet what's going to disappear??

heh.. damn lagging internet

[Lemonking]

cant we agree that all relgions suck bigtime?

[CptStern]

...
No, They ate anything, including humans, but obviously something that big would be hunted and killed if not just for food and trinkets but for safety
(Also the word dinosaur was made up in the 20th century, before then there was no term for em. Perhaps dinosaurs inspired dragon myths)

no evidence to support that whatsoever ..if humans, dinosaurs and other animals co-existed there would be abundant fossilized evidence. They would have left teeth/trauma marks consistant with that of a dinosaur attacks ...or were dinosaurs somehow embued with god given ethics that prevented them from attacking anything but their own kind? (much like the animals on the ark)

oh and dinosaurs were discovered as early as 1676 (http://www.oum.ox.ac.uk/geocolls/plot/plotfoss.htm) ...chinese wrote about it 2000 years before that ..thought they be dragons


Again, scientists have no way of knowing how old those fossils or layers are.

ummm yes they do:


Dendrochronology

Varve Analysis

Obsidian Hydration Dating

Thermoluminescence (TL) Dating

Radiometric Dating

Luminescence Dating


now could you present evidence that the world is 6000 years old? what methods of dating is used to come up with the 6000 figure. please try not to use the bible as it isnt "evidence"


Originally there were no genetics defects, God obviously created everything in a perfect manner. Thats why adam and eve's family was able to populate the earth. The flood only happened some 1500 years after creation


so there were no genetic defects before the flood? but after the flood there was? evidence? by that logic alone it is simply impossible for a handful of people (noah + family) to multiply to 6 billion in 4400 years. They would have completely thinned out the population in a few generations ..rendering many sterile. Seems like the bible is a lot like the technology in the tv series Star trek: sounds plausible but doesnt hold up to even the most superificial of scrutiny

[Ikerous]

Id counter ever one of the points Bliink just made, but most of them were already said in the thread and im lazy. Plus, like i said, i agrea that its bs and cant stand up to scrutiny; i was just showing that the ideas are based on logic not just random acceptance and stupidity.
::Still doubts that Bliink has even read the thread::

"now could you present evidence that the world is 6000 years old?"
Actually, i could show about 50 different logical ways that lead to that conclusion
However, since both of us have google, ill leave it up to you ^_^ lol

Theres actually a logical retort for almost every point made in this thread
(I know, i've head all those arguements and countered them before)
The only problem is, anyone with even a few years of science under their belt can counter my examples

But go ask some Creationist how much sceince they've had
Most havent had nearly enough to counter the examples given in creationism arguements
Its not that they're stupid, they just havent had enough science to counter the bs ppl are feeding them
(Which is all based on what seems to be simple, impenetrable logic)

[Axyon]

Lol, the funny thing is that every single one of those points were addressed in this thread and it showed just how logical it really can beI'm sorry? You're saying that a higher power commanding millions of species of animal to board an absolutely gargantuan-sized boat is logical? You're actually saying this?

[Ikerous]

I'm sorry? You're saying that a higher power commanding millions of species of animal to board an absolutely gargantuan-sized boat is logical? You're actually saying this?
Read the thread and ill tell you.
Its five pages ffs XD

[CptStern]

"now could you present evidence that the world is 6000 years old?"
Actually, i could show about 50 different logical ways that lead to that conclusion
However, since both of us have google, ill leave it up to you ^_^ lol

sorry but that's not good enough ..it's not my job to prove your point

Theres actually a logical retort for almost every point made in this thread
(I know, i've head all those arguements and countered them before)
The only problem is, anyone with even a few years of science under their belt can counter my examples

but doesnt that mean that your points dont stand scrutiny if they can be countered with basic science? and are therefore invalid?

But go ask some Creationist how much sceince they've had
Most havent had nearly enough to counter the examples given in creationism arguements
Its not that they're stupid, they just havent had enough science to counter the bs ppl are feeding them
(Which is all based on what seems to be simple, impenetrable logic)

yes but even if they had a phd in anthropology, biology and genetics and they still couldnt defend creationism because there's no facts to substantiate any of their claims ..it's pseudoscience

[Ikerous]

sorry but that's not good enough ..it's not my job to prove your point
My point was that they're wrong >< I've never said they're right
My point in posting in this thread is simpley to try and soften the attitude everyone has towards creationists. Most ppl just assume they're complete morons who never question anything or even attempt to use logic cuz its the work of the devil.
When in fact, its just the opposite. Most serious creationists could counter every example in this thread. They definitely base their assertions on logic.
The only problem is that the logic was fed to them by someone realllly good at manipulating facts to make them look nice, and then supported by counter arguments for most arguements. So it makes the theories seem really nice, logical, and obvious.
And like i said, most ppl that have taken several years of science could counter the entire idea, but most adults have NEVER taken science, and if they have it was how many years ago? Who the hell remembers that stuff for so long?
You dont count though stern, you're one of the old ppl that actually know shit ;-)

[Lt. Drebin]

sorry but I just cant bring myself to read much further than this:



"Straight from the Institute for Creation Science Evangelism – would you like to learn the importance of Creation, the impossibility of the Big Bang, how to prove the Earth is not billions of years old, the truth about Cave Men and Dinosaurs, why Evolution is dangerous, lies in the Public School Textbooks, where Oil, Coal, and Natural Gas comes from, how we can see light from Stars billions of light years away, and much, much more?"

"You will also learn how to better be equipped to witness to an evolutionist. This course will better prepare you to “be ready always to give an answer”, and even earn a college credit in doing so."



utter hogwash

Insanely extreme.

I adore the religion debate.....ADORE IT. Why can't creationism and evolution coexist?? Why?? The extreme simply have the most LUDICROUS answers. Why couldn't God have created the natural laws that govern the universe and everything else evolved from that??

I mean....for Christs sake this is one organization....yes ORGANIZATION....telling people how their here, why they're here, who put them here, when they were put here.....etc. I hate to break it to a good lot of religious people that look down on others....Belief in a higher power and devotion to a religious cause are MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. Belief in God does not require you to buck science and not believe the world is in fact BILLIONS of years old or that there are distinct changes that have occured in human skeletal structure over millions of years proven by the existance of various fossil discoveries. Sure evolution hasn't been proven in a lab, BUT evolution isn't about control....it occurs because of CHAOS....how could the concept of evolution be proven in a controled enviroment. I have no place to rip these people, but being so incredibly closed-minded is such a waste and, IMO, the result of organized religion not wanting to lose followers/money.

[Adabiviak]

wow - the Creationists are apparently upset that one of their dogmatic mantras is being threatened. This'll be like the Copernican revolution. It didn't happen overnight and it involved a lot of heated debate (and, in fact, Inquisition-like "interviews" to prove it was wrong). Eventually, in the face of lots of pesky facts, it was conceded that the Earth was not the center of the solar system. Shortly, in the face of lots of pesky facts, it will be conceded that man is a part of this process. I think the reason they are being so reactionary is because this particular battle strikes at the core of their religion. Religion provides subscribers with definition and purpose. It tells subscribers where they came from, who they are, and how they should behave. Christianity tells us that their subscribers are descendants of Adam & Eve, that subscribers' flaws are inherited from these two, how to cope with this and carry on, etc. Evolution (indeed, any rational scientific argument) does not allow this and is therefore taken as a direct attack on who subscribers are - the very core of their being. A Christian not descended from Adam and Eve is, what? Not a child of god? Not able to 'blame' Adam and Eve for their hereditary flaws?

The big question I have is how they will incorporate evolution into their dogma when it occurs to enough of them that they cannot sell creationism anymore.

[Absinthe]

Creationism is logical?

Ikerous, wtf are you smoking? Almost everything that has been brought up in its defense in this topic has been either a lie, a Bible quote, skewed pseudo-science, ignorance, and fact cherry-picking. Quite simply, if this is what you relied on to support any other idea, you'd get laughed off the face of the Earth.

Why Creationists are spared similar treatment is something I don't understand.

[Solaris]

^totally

[Ikerous]

Ikerous, wtf are you smoking? Almost everything that has been brought up in its defense in this topic has been either a lie, a Bible quote, skewed pseudo-science, ignorance, and fact cherry-picking. Quite simply, if this is what you relied on to support any other idea, you'd get laughed off the face of the Earth.
A great deal of marijuana.

Lemme use an example to explain what i've been trying to say...
you couldnt build an arc big enough to house the neccessary 100-200 million insects and keep ALL of them alive. forget the rest of the creatures!
How many people posted that exact same question? Most ppl think creationists are so god awful stupid that none of them ever thought the same exact thing, that they're basically incapable of using logic.

I just wanna show they actually have reasons behind what they believe
(Note that im talking mostly about the average joe creationist, not the phd ones that came up with or support the science behind it. If you've had that much education and still buy it, then you're just plain sad)

::enjoys my flamin hot cheeto sandwich::

[bliink]

I just wanna show they actually have reasons behind what they believe
(Note that im talking mostly about the average joe creationist, not the phd ones that came up with or support the science behind it. If you've had that much education and still buy it, then you're just plain sad)

::enjoys my flamin hot cheeto sandwich::

oh of course, I agree completely about that, and that many people can probably find believable logic in it.

What annoys me though, is when people mutilate science to try and "prove" it, when it is completely faith based.

[Absinthe]

I don't understand that kind of hypocrisy either.

First they'll say that science doesn't pertain to God, but then they'll try to prove his existence through (skewed) science any way. And when that doesn't work, they're back to square one.

[riomhaire]

"Animals have diversified into many varieties in the last 4400 years since the Flood."
Do you smell that? It smells like EVOLUTION!

[Ikerous]

"Animals have diversified into many varieties in the last 4400 years since the Flood."
Do you smell that? It smells like EVOLUTION!
Well yea.. thats cuz creationists believe in evolution..

[Absinthe]

No, not all creationists.

[Ikerous]

No, not all creationists.
I've never heard a single creationist argue against mirco-evolution.. no one

::Googles it for a while to see::

[CptStern]

Well yea.. thats cuz creationists believe in evolution..

no they try to hammer pieces to fit their puzzle ..there's no science behind what they believe ..oh and I truely believe that as a layman I can give a phd in creationism a smackdown ..there's nothing in their bag of tricks that couldnt easily be dismissed

[Ikerous]

no they try to hammer pieces to fit their puzzle ..there's no science behind what they believe
They believe the same exact thing scientists do about macro evolution.. thats science right there
They just don't believe in macro evolution
oh and I truely believe that I as a layman can give a phd in creationism a smackdown
I'm sure you could, but you know a whole hell of a lot more about science than the average person

[OCybrManO]

They believe the same exact thing scientists do about macro [I'm assuming you mean "micro" here) evolution.. thats science right there
They just don't believe in macro evolutionSo, they believe that gene mutations (well, profitable ones) actually occur but only on certain predefined genes that wouldn't take them out of the arbitrary classification (invented by humans) of the various "types" of animals? Define the fundamental difference between "micro evolution" and "macro evolution" because, as far as I know, they're the same process... just viewed on different scales. Explain how it can't change an animal from, let's say, a chimp to a human... and yet it can manage to change enough from the small selection of animals that could fit on the ark to the entire variety of animals on Earth. Genetic mutations are practically random... producing major differences like extra digits/limbs, fur-like hair covering the entire body, 3 feet tall people, babies born with a brain lacking everything but a the stem, and all kinds of weird shit. Yet, they don't think evolution could give ape-like creatures more advanced brains, less hair, and a slightly different bone structure? What limitations are there in "micro evolution" that prevent this?

[riomhaire]

no they try to hammer pieces to fit their puzzle ..there's no science behind what they believe
They believe the same exact thing scientists do about macro evolution.. thats science right there
More like scientists look at the pieces already there and use them to work out the remaining ones while creationists have pre-set beliefs that they cut to fit around the pieces already there.