DamN this is GooD!

[eatbugs]

LAtely I have taken up my pencil with which I had forsaken in my great discouragment and have produced fine works. I developed my own style which by the way is important to do if you ever want to escape mediocrity like I did:farmer: . I use heavy grade pencils 6B, and employ thick outlines to express the drawing better.

[G-Dub]

They look cool eatbugs; you teh man!

[Sparta]

I can't believe you forsoke (is that a word?) pencil. What on earth were you thinking? Its pencil man! Freakin pencil!

Anywho, those look good. But you have way you go about drawing men's faces. They all look the same, and their noses are all crooked. It bugs me thats all. Anyway, keep up the work :E

[Cyanide]

Not bad, though you still need to work on facial anatomy.

[iyfyoufhl]

tree is nice

[CptStern]

need to work on proportions ...also try to vary your lines ..you seem to have 2 types: thick and thin ...remember that thick lines conveys weight while thin conveys the opposite ...also if you're serious and can afford it pick up Gray's Anatomy (http://www.cdaccess.com/gifs/shared/front/large/histmedb.gif)


the ultimate resource for illustrators

[Mechagodzilla]

Thick outlines don't make anyone draw better, although they probably make the pictures scan more clearly. I think the improvement may have more to do with you drawing over sketchier penciling and refining it in the process.
Thick lines do serve a purpose in cases, to show things like shadow, weight and perspective but they shouldn't be used everywheres.

Personally, I find that the best sketch works use no outlines at all and focus entirely on shading.
(Random example, I didn't draw it.)
http://www.acclaimimages.com/_gallery/_SM/0028-0406-3014-5313_SM.jpg

[chu]

Personally, I find that the best sketch works use no outlines at all and focus entirely on shading.

I agree. That is kind of like what I did here.

http://img270.echo.cx/img270/8519/deniro6ai.jpg

[eatbugs]

Not bad, though you still need to work on facial anatomy.
I have decided that the best way to do this will be to draw skulls to figure out how a face works, so to speak. I think proportions for the body are coming along well though.

[Garfield_]

Thick outlines don't make anyone draw better, although they probably make the pictures scan more clearly. I think the improvement may have more to do with you drawing over sketchier penciling and refining it in the process.
Thick lines do serve a purpose in cases, to show things like shadow, weight and perspective but they shouldn't be used everywheres.

Personally, I find that the best sketch works use no outlines at all and focus entirely on shading.
(Random example, I didn't draw it.)
http://www.acclaimimages.com/_gallery/_SM/0028-0406-3014-5313_SM.jpg

Yeah, this makes it much more realistic looking :)

[Pesmerga]

Depends on what you're trying to portray. Big, thick lines are great for embolding statements.

[eatbugs]

I think it depends on which direction in art you want to follow. Van Gogh used heavy lines when drawing to express his subject better while Da vinci used lighter tones to portray realism.

[TheSomeone]

Yay, nice lines :D.

Keep drawing.

[TheSomeone]

I think it depends on which direction in art you want to follow. Van Gogh used heavy lines when drawing to express his subject better while Da vinci used lighter tones to portray realism.

But both probably knew how to do both, and you should too.

EDIT: Okay enough being lazy, here are my crits for each one. (these are for your own good, not to discourage you)

half a tree: What you really need to start doing is properly drawing grass. The tree looks pretty good, but the grass looks rushed. If you want to quickly portray grass, you should try drawing it's outline rather than scribbling it.

Axe: In this drawing, the light source on the brick and on the tree interfere with each other. Also, try more than just the overal-shape. try "normal-mapping" it :).

Greatness: In this drawing you let tone interfere with shape. Make sure the shading follows the shape. Also, the two arms aren't the same size, one is a bit too big and one is a bit too small.

Monk: The lines are a bit too thick around the nose and especially around the mouth. The shading also slightly interferes with the shape. Remember, take your time, and make sure you follow the shapes.

All-in-all, you've obviously improved. Keep drawing, i can't wait to see what you're capable of in a few years.

[eatbugs]

Not to crush your spirit but Thesomeone, you seem to have this idea that shading and tone are what make a good drawing. In my opinion it is the quality of the line that makes it artistic and I believe shading is secondary. I'm not saying tone isn't important because it is but I think I should be used when really needed. just look at some of Ingres and Van Gogh's drawings to see how they limit their shading. Anyway I think drawing comes secondary to my oil painting at the moment.

[Immortal]

Not to crush your spirit but Thesomeone, you seem to have this idea that shading and tone are what make a good drawing. In my opinion it is the quality of the line that makes it artistic and I believe shading is secondary. I'm not saying tone isn't important because it is but I think I should be used when really needed. just look at some of Ingres and Van Gogh's drawings to see how they limit their shading. Anyway I think drawing comes secondary to my oil painting at the moment.

Well, what your opinion of a 'good' drawing is may be something completely different from what thesomeone thinks is a 'good' drawing If your going for realism then tone is obviosly very important but if your going for a more expressionistic drawing then tone is less important.

why not show us an example of drawing an object that has lots of tone and depth to show you have the tallent to recreate realistic lighting?

[TheSomeone]

Not to crush your spirit but Thesomeone, you seem to have this idea that shading and tone are what make a good drawing. In my opinion it is the quality of the line that makes it artistic and I believe shading is secondary. I'm not saying tone isn't important because it is but I think I should be used when really needed. just look at some of Ingres and Van Gogh's drawings to see how they limit their shading. Anyway I think drawing comes secondary to my oil painting at the moment.

Not to crush your spirit, but you can't compare yourself to Ingres. I'm sure he knew everything about shading and tone, as they are two of the most important aspects of illustration.

And wether it's important or not, if you do use it (and you did) you have to use it right. Don't let shading interfere with shape like it does on his arm. If you really think it's not important, just draw line drawings (like comic book illustrations).

By the way, if you could post crits in my new thread, I'd really appreciate it ;).

[eatbugs]

I think the point I'm trying to make is that for me at he moment I want to advance as fast as possible and I think to learn the most about line you just have to draw it like I have. Tone comes in later for me since I am only learning and not creating pencil paintings

[chu]

You can't generalize art.

[TheSomeone]

Eatbugs... Why do we have to go through this everytime...

Your number one rule when it comes to posting your artwork on the forums is to STAY HUMBLE! Please! Almost everytime you get ahead of yourself until someone here makes you realize you're being silly.

You can't improve if you don't accept criticism!

You can be stubborn to your friends, but what's the use of being stubborn towards your helpers? That's all we're trying to do! If you want to study lines only, then don't bother doing shading. If you do it, do it right, that's all I'm saying.

Please take 5 - 10 minutes to digest this before replying.

<3

[eatbugs]

For the record, I haven't made any reservations to be a comic book illustrator..+shudder+:x

I want to strive for colour and form when I become a painter, tone coming only if necessary (like the impressionists)

And believe me I can generalise anything:naughty: :naughty:

-digested.

[TheSomeone]

Good :).

Also, check out this page from an Andrew Loomis book: http://www.saveloomis.org/FigureDrawing/68.htm

I understand what you are trying to achieve a little better now, but wether you draw outlines or not you should have a knowledge of bulk and form. So try practicing your tones anyways, it's a lot of fun too.

[Sparta]

In my opinion it is the quality of the line that makes it artistic and I believe shading is secondary. .
Not if you're trying to accomplish realism.
Line should barely, if at all, be involved.

[eatbugs]

Update day. I have worked on what you guys told me to work on, in terms of faces that is. These are simply pictures I took out of the newspaper and gave immortality to....

[TheSomeone]

Great improvements!

Try to lessen the lines one the noses, and try to make the lips seem more like cuts in the skin, like eyelids. And give the ladies a bit less jaw and cheekbone.

[eatbugs]

Its getting there, my next big mission in art is to darw "50 heads" I'll do 2 a day or something cos I need to get up to speed as fast as possible

[TheSomeone]

Yeah I should give myself a sort of "mission" like that too.

Have you seen the 1000 self-portraits on www.conceptart.org? I think he drew one everyday.

[eatbugs]

concept art makes me shudder, but I have seen that site before, I hope to do 50 before the end of this month anyway..

[TheSomeone]

concept art makes me shudder

Shudder... As in?

[nofx]

concept art makes me shudder, but I have seen that site before, I hope to do 50 before the end of this month anyway..


Thats a huge insult have you ever seen the works of Doug Chiang? Feng Zhu? Have you ever looked at the art of the matrix book?

I think your faces are going in the right direction HOWEVER I suggest that you study the bone anatomy like the cranium, mandible that should help. I see you have talent if your art history knowledge was on par with your drawings youd be really good :D. Not meant to insult in anyway.

[eatbugs]

conflicting interest, if you like concept art then by all means go that way but don't look for my support

[TheSomeone]

You can't just bunch concept art in the same trash bin, concept art is the ultimate show of human imagination, it destroys all boundaries created by reality. It really is magic when you come to appreciate it.

[eatbugs]

I can see that you and I have very different opinions in art, there is nothing to conform to in concept art you can just do your own random thing however bad that might be and people will be fooled by it because there is no standard for drawing things that don't exist

[TheSomeone]

I can see that you and I have very different opinions in art, there is nothing to conform to in concept art you can just do your own random thing however bad that might be and people will be fooled by it because there is no standard for drawing things that don't exist

Really?

Click the attachment.

I think our different opinion extend much farther than art. I think we have different opinions on what the human mind is for and apply it to our thoughts on art.

I strongly beleive in Einstein's quote "Imagination is more important than knowledge," while you seem to strongly oppose it.

I beleive in the forces of change, you beleive in the forces of continuity.

I don't beleive we exist to conform. I beleive we exist to progress, to cross boundaries and to form new ones for the next generations to cross. I can safely say that the large majority of the things we do and use today are the results of dissent and not comformity.

I treat art in the same matter: know the rules to break them, because abiding endlessly by age old rules is like running in a circle. And everyone knows that leads to nowhere.

Taking risks is more important than gingerly relearning the past.

[TheSomeone]

Plus, most great concept art reflects an immense amount of knowledge on anatomy, bulk, tone and overall art.

This one for example:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/mentler/hang063005b.jpg

This artist obviously knows every muscle in the body by heart, and it's obvious from this piece of concept art.

[chu]

I agree with Thesomeone. If there was only conformity and no imagination we would still be awed by stick figures on a cave wall.

Knowledge can be taught, imagination can't. It's ok to follow guidelines while you start out but you eventually have to come into your own and break from conformity of the standard. Art is creation, not interpretation.

eatbugs, may I ask how old you are?

[TheSomeone]

eatbugs, may I ask how old you are?

He's 16.

[eatbugs]

Really?

Click the attachment.

I think our different opinion extend much farther than art. I think we have different opinions on what the human mind is for and apply it to our thoughts on art.

I strongly beleive in Einstein's quote "Imagination is more important than knowledge," while you seem to strongly oppose it.

I beleive in the forces of change, you beleive in the forces of continuity.

I don't beleive we exist to conform. I beleive we exist to progress, to cross boundaries and to form new ones for the next generations to cross. I can safely say that the large majority of the things we do and use today are the results of dissent and not comformity.

I treat art in the same matter: know the rules to break them, because abiding endlessly by age old rules is like running in a circle. And everyone knows that leads to nowhere.

Taking risks is more important than gingerly relearning the past.
no no NO! I know why you admire concept art so much. You want to "cross boundaries" this is in art called the "avante guard" The impressionists revolutionised painting and ever since them it has been a downward spiral from cubism to pop art, but the question is how much more change can happen before art goes completely degenerate? this is why you like concept art, because it is different. These days there is a call for 'realist classical' art unlike Andrew Wyeth who doesn't know the rules. That is why I am opposed to concept art or any kind of spin off of classical art, it is no good.

[TheSomeone]

You should try opening your mind once in a while.

[eatbugs]

I agree with Thesomeone. If there was only conformity and no imagination we would still be awed by stick figures on a cave wall.

Knowledge can be taught, imagination can't. It's ok to follow guidelines while you start out but you eventually have to come into your own and break from conformity of the standard. Art is creation, not interpretation.

eatbugs, may I ask how old you are?
every piece of art requires imagination, and usually the general public these days are awed by stupid swirling colours on a canvas and the artist says, what can you see in this picture? WoW!!!! the same is for concept art it doesn't exist and shows a lack of maturity of art in my opinion.

Chu how old are you? 7?

and what the hell are you talking about? you don't HAVE to break away from anything, sophist.

[chu]

the same is for concept art it doesn't exist and shows a lack of maturity of art in my opinion.



Ok, that's all I needed to hear. :rolleyes:

I wasn't asking your age to insult you, I just wanted to know how old you were.

[eatbugs]

Look I don't really want to go on arguing about it because if you guys do your own thing thats good, for you. But my point is exemplfied in how people want shippi and Nofx in a showcase thread. That's alright I don't particularly mind and I'm not insulting them either I'm just making a point that I'm right.
So spare me the details if you don't mind, cos I really don't want to know.

Unless you want to argue the point then start up an art argument thread, I'll join then.

[Mechagodzilla]

I believe you misunderstand the difference between conceptual art and concept art.

Conceptual art:
http://www.amyleland.net/blog/images/gates-1.jpg
http://collections.ic.gc.ca/mforget/images/30mom7.jpg

Concept art:
http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2004/reviews/920087_20041118_screen013.jpg
http://kaedrin.com/fun/images/cockpit.jpg

[eatbugs]

Get this SPAM out of my thread damn you!@!!! I disown this thread

[chu]

Look I don't really want to go on arguing about it because if you guys do your own thing thats good, for you. But my point is exemplfied in how people want shippi and Nofx in a showcase thread. That's alright I don't particularly mind and I'm not insulting them either I'm just making a point that I'm right.

:angel:

Incase you havn't noticed this is an online internet forum for a computer game. It's not the Louvre. :rolling:

Just because you read -Art in the encyclopedia, it does not make you an exemplified connoisseur in the world of art. You lack the experience and time to be able to exlplain art, as do I. So just stick to bettering your drawing skills and let the pro's explain what art is.

You don't have to like concept art but someone in your state should atleast have respect for some of the artist that do that type of work. They are years ahead of you.

I am not just trying to insult you or start a war with you. You just come of really pompous like you know all there is to know. Quit the act and just draw more. I like to see people develop. :cheers:

[eatbugs]

so in how many years should we have this debate then? J/K this may not be the Louvre but if you continue with concept art you won't be joining me there. Well I may not know everything, yet. But I know alot more than the average Layman of this site, not that you or TheSomeone are laymen though

[Mechagodzilla]

'Kay now you're just on the fringes of hubris, man.

Your stuff isn't terrible, but you're not anywhere as advanced as you may think you are. Your lines are messy and your shading is flat, causing your sketches to look rushed, escpecially given the patchy and random crosshatching. Most of the forms look at least slightly off, and the combined effect is that of sketches that are decidedly not better in quality than either concept or conceptual art in general, regardless of fantastical subjects.

Conceptual or not, even Picasso could draw like this:
http://images.allposters.com/images/owp/c9347l.jpg
if he wanted to.

All art is based on the same fundamental concepts, and all pro artists get realism down solid before they start taking those ideas apart and rearranging them for conceptual works. No-one just scribbles on a canvas and gets away with it unless they're an elephant. (http://www.thai-fine-art.com/shop/prad028.htm)

Same goes with concept art, if that's your beef. It is simply impossible to get a halfways decent imaginary creature drawn without at least a mild knowledge of anatomy, shading and the like.
If it is so easy to draw imaginary things, then why not give it a shot and show us the result?
If it were at all equal or better than your current stuff, purely by virtue of being fantastic, that would certainly prove me wrong.
Of course, you wouldn't even need to look at references or even try, since it's so easy. So the whole process should be a snap, right?

But until such a proof crops up, please do us all a favor and act a bit less like god's gift to art in the same thread as 'thick lines make look good!!'

[TheSomeone]

every piece of art requires imagination, and usually the general public these days are awed by stupid swirling colours on a canvas and the artist says, what can you see in this picture? WoW!!!! the same is for concept art it doesn't exist and shows a lack of maturity of art in my opinion.

How is that like concept art? Most of the time concept art portrays humanoid figures and all of the time it portrays reckognizable form.

You are telling me there is no way of you judging the following piece of art to be good because you have no point of reference, even though it displays an amazing amount of knowledge in anatomy, lighting and shaping, color and brushworK:

http://www.kekaikotaki.com/pics/prostateVSovenglove_TD.jpg

Eatbugs, maybe one day you will realize you are fallible. Maybe when you fall in love, maybe when you get rejected from an art school. Whenenver it is, I guarantee you will come back here and realize how stupid you are being right now.

I really admire your passion for art, it's really quite impressive, but you can't discredit an entire lot of artists who are right now, much much better than you are.

Take a pause right now, and think about why you are drawing, why you are striving to improve.

Is your goal to impress people?
Is your goal to be famous?
Is your goal to make it to a museum?
Is your goal to make a living with art?

Or maybe, is your goal to be able to achieve whatever your imagination permits you to perceive? To be able to communicate your mind to the rest of the world?

As you may have guessed, concept art is dedicated to the latter. Concept art is a window to the mind.

Drawing realistic portraits is an important skill in the art world, but who wants a time-consuming, near-realistic portrait when we have cameras? Concept art is what art only can acheive.

I'm not sure if you are aware, but it's fairly obvious that you are somewhat arrogant. It isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it can be if you overdo it.

Arrogance is like having bones on the outside, like insects. You take blows without feeling them, you are near-invincible, you feel like you are on top of the world. But as soon as that bone is peirced, you entire life source will flow out of your shell and there will be no way to stop it.

What I strive for, on the other hand, is the human body. Everytime I take a blow, it hurts, but I acknowledge it and build upon it. I am aware that I am weak, that I am frail, and that I will only improve my person and my art by seeing that.

When at the beggining of your thread you said that you had picked up your pencil after great discouragement, I wasn't surprised at all, and i won't be surprised if it happens again. You seem to think you are a whole lot better than you really are. Just because you've discovered you can make nice thick lines with a 6B pencil does not mean your drawings "show a mastery of line" as you have previously said. You are very far from mastering anything at this point. So am I, but I acknowledge.

Everytime you receive constructive critism it bounces off your shell. You protect and defend yourself from it as if it was bad.

I think Mechagodzilla pretty much got it nailed in his last sentence.
Please do us all a favor and act a bit less like god's gift to art in the same thread as 'thick lines make look good!!'

In addition to being hilarious, you should really take it as serious advice. You really aren't anymore gifted or special than anyone on this planet because you know how to draw better than your peers, and you really aren't more talented than the average artist. We're all on the same boat in this forum, you aren't hovering over us in a magical flying ship.

[eatbugs]

Talk is cheap for and your cronies it doesn't seem to work. I will prove that I am that damn good by showing how much I can improve in one day by posting some stuff tommorow. But remember I never specifically said I was better than anyone here, though maybe i acted like it,but I am taking a better choice of art than anyone else that is my argument.

Ingres said to Degas in 1854, "draw lines young man, from memory or from nature, in this way you will become a great artist". - thats what I am taking to heart. He also shouted to Delacroix "Sir, drawing is a term of decency, a matter of honour!" This concept art is nothing honourable and I'm sure some part of you must agree.

You just said that concept art requires "an amazing amount of knowledge in anatomy" again how do you determine the anatomy of that behemoth you posted, it can't be done because you can't determine from something that doesn't exist.

[Shippi]

Dear Eatbugs

You suck

Lots of Love, TDE


:)

[Shippi]

Alright... I was writing a post to try to explain to you just how wrong you are, but I decided you wouldn’t listen anyway so I didn’t waste my time. TDE put what I was thinking pretty much perfectly tbh. But, I’m curious… before I abandon this thread entirely, tell me, what do you mean by:
But my point is exemplfied in how people want shippi and Nofx in a showcase thread. That's alright I don't particularly mind and I'm not insulting them either I'm just making a point that I'm right.

What’s wrong with mine and Nofx’s art? Nofx is a far, far better artist than you (and far better than you’ll ever be, with that attitude), and how, exactly, does it prove that you’re right? Go on, tell me, what’s wrong with it? :)

[Mechagodzilla]

Looking at Shippi's portraiture, she's got a win condition there as well. much better lines, accurate anatomy and she's got consistent quality shading in her paintball action shots.

And duh, the 'behemoth he posted' has entirely human anatomy below the jaw, while the skull above appears to be an accurate cattle skull.
The fact that you apparently can't recognize a human torso when you see one says more than enough in my books.

You shouldn't need to namedrop dead people in order to convince us that your drawing doesn't suck. Blahblahblah Da Vinci blahblahblah etc.

[TheSomeone]

What’s wrong with mine and Nofx’s art? Nofx is a far, far better artist than you (and far better than you’ll ever be, with that attitude), and how, exactly, does it prove that you’re right? Go on, tell me, what’s wrong with it? :)

Shippi: always arguing with a smile. :thumbs:

[CptStern]

look, you're all crap ..you suck!!





the sooner you hear that the more you'll be prepared for the real world ...I've been a professional designer/artist for over almost 15 years and this is by far one of the most depressing, ego crushing businesses out there ...the sooner you learn to take criticism the more likely your are in having a long lasting career ...be prepared to be rejected hundreds if not thousands of times


actual true scenario:


worked for weeks on a layout and illustration where I had the client sign off on changes ...right before completion the client's boss sees it, calls me up and says .."it looks good but can you not use yellow ...yellow is for cowards ..we dont want to look like cowards "

all work up to that point: out the door, restart from scratch and have to swallow the loss or lose the client

[TheSomeone]

worked for weeks on a layout and illustration where I had the client sign off on changes ...right before completion the client's boss sees it, calls me up and says .."it looks good but can you not use yellow ...yellow is for cowards ..we dont want to look like cowards "

If Van Gogh was still alive he would have beaten that man to death with a paintbrush. ;)

[CptStern]

and hacked off his ear and sent it to his girlfriend as a love token

[chu]

....harsh....


Sometimes you need tough love though.

[TheSomeone]

This concept art is nothing honourable and I'm sure some part of you must agree.

Honour is a macho concept we really need to get over.

[CptStern]

ontopic:


it's far easier to create this

http://www.kekaikotaki.com/pics/prostateVSovenglove_TD.jpg


than it is to create this:

http://www.globalgallery.com/images/ny-7047.jpg




art is more than just technique

[nofx]

I think this thread has derailed quite a bit, but you should still post your art. Isn't this the reason why you've started this thread haven't you? To become a better artist, or to ignore helpful critiques? I strive to be a good artist and hopefully one day to become an animator and share my movies/cartoons or whatever I mayendup doing with the world and to touch peoples live to become a better people or just a better person. If I touch just one person my goal in life will be complete, I have this talent with my hands and arms why not use it to tesselate the imaginations of children or the goodwill of adults?

I feel you just are really too subjective to grow as an artist. Art is kind of like music in the subject of taste, you have your ghetto rap ART then your rock n roll ART. Theres noooo way you can get everyone in the world to like the same thing, your own art class maybe to all agree on a certain kind of art, unless its nameless something like classical ART. Something that dabs upon your imagination / creativity with the chiaroscuro renaisance/baroque effects.

I compare these two because it seems like you're ignorant in the simple act of just accepting its another type of art. Just because you dont agree or feel that concept art doesnt have anything that makes it worthy doesnt mean you can just put down on conceptual art. This brings me to my final point im not sayin that you should bow down and praise 5 times a day to conceptual art im just saying you couldve atleast have some type of respect for the artist, instead of nasty things about there work. You might not read this I dont really care. If anyone does read this my job is done. :)

anyways keep posting your art i seriously want to see how long this takes before you say to your self, "Oh I see what theyre saying I get it now..." youre just wasting your time if you want to be the best by neglecting their words.

oh and btw I think well all be able to see when this happens.

[TheSomeone]

it's far easier to create this

(concept art)

than it is to create this:

(cubism)

art is more than just technique

Agreed.

But apparently eatbugs refuses to beleive either of the above takes any skill.

[eatbugs]

Alright... I was writing a post to try to explain to you just how wrong you are, but I decided you wouldn’t listen anyway so I didn’t waste my time. TDE put what I was thinking pretty much perfectly tbh. But, I’m curious… before I abandon this thread entirely, tell me, what do you mean by:


What’s wrong with mine and Nofx’s art? Nofx is a far, far better artist than you (and far better than you’ll ever be, with that attitude), and how, exactly, does it prove that you’re right? Go on, tell me, what’s wrong with it? :)
alright Shippi lets say hypothetically that I am worse than you and I suck, ok thats out of the way. I was trying to make a point about concept art, and Mechagodzilla I know you don't really know your art history but this thread is about how classical art is the Ayatollah of it all and I used the greatest master to back me up, what use is having an argument if you can't back it up? and Nofx, I'm not backing down on my point of view until there is a worthwhile rebuttal instead of , your art sucks or why can't you open your eyes?

Concept art requires little skill that is why Shippi enjoys it so much, at least one of you could agree with me that concept art is on a lower platform than classical?

[Greatgat]

alright Shippi lets say hypothetically that I am worse than you and I suck, ok thats out of the way. I was trying to make a point about concept art, and Mechagodzilla I know you don't really know your art history but this thread is about how classical art is the Ayatollah of it all and I used the greatest master to back me up, what use is having an argument if you can't back it up? and Nofx, I'm not backing down on my point of view until there is a worthwhile rebuttal instead of , your art sucks or why can't you open your eyes?

Concept art requires little skill that is why Shippi enjoys it so much, at least one of you could agree with me that concept art is on a lower platform than classical?

I don't. One of my favorite artists Mark Ryden (http://www.markryden.com/) is very much a concept artist. He does some very interesting things that I really do love. On the other hand on of my all time faves, La Jeune Martye (http://brandy.weblogs.us/poster/la-jeune-martye-309128.html) is in a very classical style and I love that as well. I cannot compare between them as I love them both equally.

[eatbugs]

I don't. One of my favorite artists Mark Ryden (http://www.markryden.com/) is very much a concept artist. He does some very interesting things that I really do love. On the other hand on of my all time faves, La Jeune Martye (http://brandy.weblogs.us/poster/la-jeune-martye-309128.html) is in a very classical style and I love that as well. I cannot compare between them as I love them both equally.
Your FAVOURITES, exactly my point, they may be your favourites but they sure as hell are as skilled as say oh, I don't know Ingres a rigid classical master. They may be your favourites but that doesn't accredit to their skill level

[Greatgat]

Your FAVOURITES, exactly my point, they may be your favourites but they sure as hell are as skilled as say oh, I don't know Ingres a rigid classical master. They may be your favourites but that doesn't accredit to their skill level

I will admit that yes, Ingres is very good, but some modern and conceptual artists have also reached the same heights through a different style and medium. I recognize the past masters artistry. No argument there whatsoever. But sometimes things do not have to be in the same style to equal or surpass them.

[chu]

Concept art requires little skill..

Do you consider this "little skill"?
http://www.dylancolestudio.com/Matte/personal/images/ManhattanMPv01.jpg

[TheSomeone]

Hold on eatbugs, you used a classical artist to back up classical art?

First of all, that's like using Micheal Moore to prove Bush is a shitty president, do you realize how faulty that is?

Second of all, you didn't back up anything. You quoted something about lines, when concept art uses as much line as classical art.

Third of all, you have yet to prove to use you can draw better concept art. It takes less skill right? So why can't you do it?

Fourth of all, this is the only online debate I've seen where it's one against the rest. Doesn't that say something?

Fifth of all, name a concept of classical art not used in concept art.

Sixth of all here is your rebuttal:

Your point: Concept art takes little skill.
My point: It takes a LOT of skill.
My Inductive proof:

Hypothetically assume that concept art little skill.

This is concept art of a Viking:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/mentler/ElGreco/hang080705g.jpg

Since concept art takes little skill, then anyone with a tiny bit of art knowledge can reproduce this drawing, because no one needs skill.

Try to reproduce a conceptual portrait of a viking of equal skill to the above (accoording to you: little skill) using the same material that he used: a pen (of any color) and sketch paper (of any color.). The entire forum will be the judge if they are both of equal skill (of little skill).

If you fail to reproduce work of that quality, I will have proved you do not have enough skill to do such thing, and you will be proved wrong.

If you disagree that is appropriate concept art, you can choose from some of the following from the same artist, which undisputably resemble nothing human:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/mentler/hang070205.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/mentler/hang061005e.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/mentler/tre24.jpg

If you still fail to agree this artist is a concept artist, you may choose another piece of concept art from here: ww.conceptart.org

You have one week to prove yourself right.

Go.

[Greatgat]

Do you consider this "little skill"?

Exactly. I think the only difference between "classical" and "concept" art is that classical deals with the issues and images of their time whereas concept just happens to deal with the images and issues of ours. It just hasn't had time yet to become classical.

Life imitates art, and art imitates life and etc., but art is the things that resonate with us.

[TheSomeone]

Regarding Greatgat's post:

It's funny that if eatbugs was born 200 years later he'd be defending concept art with his blood and sweat.

[chu]

It's past eatbugs bedtime. I swear he is putting on an act, no one can be that ignorant.

[TheSomeone]

It's past eatbugs bedtime. I swear he is putting on an act, no one can be that ignorant.

He lives in Australia, I think it's early afternoon there.

[Sparta]

Its 2:29pm over here but he lives in New Zealand, so its about 4 or maybe 5:29pm

[eatbugs]

actually I have things to do other than stay online all day but anyway that doesn't matter. TheSomeone regarding the viking pen drawing. The artist wouldn't have used straight pen onto paper he would have carefully used pencil then gone over it and keeping that in mind it isn't as great as you might like to think it is. And chu I'm not being ignorant I'm standing up for what I think is right even if you're all against me I don't care. Do you really want to test me TheSomeone? if you do why don't you join in and draw something naturalistic because I'm not going to look like an idiot by drawing "your art" when I have been sworn against for such a long time it would be degrading.

[TheSomeone]

actually I have things to do other than stay online all day but anyway that doesn't matter. TheSomeone regarding the viking pen drawing. The artist wouldn't have used straight pen onto paper he would have carefully used pencil then gone over it and keeping that in mind it isn't as great as you might like to think it is.

The artist hasn't touched a regular pencil for years, he uses all pen. It's part of his style. But you can go ahead and use pencil if you want.

Do you really want to test me TheSomeone? if you do why don't you join in and draw something naturalistic because I'm not going to look like an idiot by drawing "your art" when I have been sworn against for such a long time it would be degrading.

Oh wow, this is getting completely out of hand. You refuse to draw concept art in order not to degrade yourself?

What a lame excuse eatbugs, as long as you refuse my challenge the proof will be on my side.

Seriously, I went from liking you to not being able to trust myself in the same room as you and a brass knuckle. I'm sure the same goes for a lot of people here. First I tried tough love, that completely failed, and now I've sunk down to being extremely angry at you. Not hating/disliking you (yet), just flaming inside.

PS: me joining and drawing naturalist art would completely defeat the purpose since I appreciate naturalist art as well.

[eatbugs]

What a lame excuse eatbugs, as long as you refuse my challenge the proof will be on my side.

WHAT proof??? you have nothing to back up your claim that concept art requires more skill than classical except for an attempt at drawing a viking done by a half witted oaf. The masters have done work twice that standard, and you know it too. Alright lets talk about painting then and forget about drawing. Which side has skill backing it up now? I think its obvious.

And if this means so much to you maybe you shouldn't take it so personally. I'm not trying to piss you off I'm trying to get a point through to all of you, a point that now we are talking about PAINTING is in my favour.

I wouldn't want to beat you if I was alone in a room with you that's because I wouldn't take losing an argument as hard as you have.

[TheSomeone]

WHAT proof??? you have nothing to back up your claim that concept art requires more skill than classical except for an attempt at drawing a viking done by a half witted oaf.

1. I have never said it require more skill.
2. The proof isn't within the drawing itself, it's within your unability to reproduce it.
3. Your proof is a quote from Ingres. Good job.

I agree with you that classical painters are superior to the non-existent concept-art painters :rolleyes:.

and I don't think you understand at all why I am extremely angry at you.




You have insulted and befouled an immense and contributing part of the art community, when they have never even said anything wrong about your art and your beleifs.

The half witted oaf you are talking about is an art and anatomy professor, something you will most likely never acheive. He has a deal to publish a book and a DVD on anatomy and figure drawings, two things you have yet to master, that will be coming out very soon. Within the two past days that I have decided to post my work on the concept art forums, he has already given me the best advice I have ever received.

The masters have not done work twice as good as his. His work and knowledge rivals Da Vinci.

http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=25653&page=1&pp=60

[TheSomeone]

plz delete. ( I can explain, it involves me pressing "back" instead of edit, then pressing reply again."

EDIT: I found what to fill this post with:

"
Artwork is artwork no matter what field, there are the good, the bad and the exceptional, the only difference is the end result and the context into which the artwork fits. For fine arts, the piece itself is the final object destination, to be viewed and appreciated.

For concept art, the art is never the ends in itself, it is always a part of a greater whole, a team effort that arrives at a commercial product.

He may even be a little astounded that concept artists as a whole have just as much if not more foundation that many classical and fine arts practitioners, based on the fact that we do not have the luxury of time and thus must relegate much of what we know to memory without the convenience of live models and what not. As concept artists we are also expected to know anatomy inside out, design principles, architectural principles, vehichle, aesthetic and functional values." -MagicMan

"Has he ever tried drawing a human being without reference? Many people here can do it reaaaaally well, and there is certainly a huge amount of knowledge and skill involved in that (as well as environment,creature, vehicle, etc. design. )

I used to be really closed off to other forms of art that weren't really after realism (esp. modern). But in reality we're all working with the same tools and ideas fundamentally, we're just playing different notes and composing different songs. There is something to learn from everything, and even if you may not like it as a whole, there is something there that may be of interest to you and inspire you. So why be shut out all these other forms of art.. you think they take no skill and these artists dont struggle? We're all after an ideal of our own and we're taking in influences all of the time and revising those ideals for our entire lives as artists. I'm sure its safe to assume that many people working in concept art have the same kind of drive, passion, and thoughtfulness that anyone in a fine art gallery may have for what they do.
" -SomeGuy

"concept art is illustration....what you have found is common. illustration is regularily looked down upon by fine artists and the fine arts community. however, just because a person can paint a nice figure, or paint a great bowl of fruit..or hell even a nice robed figure standing on some turkish rugs with some slave girls around him....the artist doing so may not be great with ideas or design. Mucha was a great concept artist/designer, so was lalique even though concept art was not their field. . However, most traditionally trained artists are not. take one look at www.gandygallery.com and see what i mean. zzzzz on content and subject matter there. On the contemporary fine art side, just because one can make a nice expressive painting and glue rice to it or wrap it in skotch tape does not mean that he or she can draw or paint a damn thing.

traditional fine art is perhaps one of the most difficult things to do (might as well equate it to brain surgery, truly mastering martial arts, composing music like beethoven etc....however i would put the masters of concept design in a totally different category...though very much as challenging as any of the above....because it is for production, corners are cut, business is kept in mind, and thus the soul of the product is not much more than well... product. You see the difference? All the great concept artists do try to infuse some soul into their work. It is impossible to not when things are clicking well for them. However, it is not like these artists have six years to make a painting on our own time or of our own motivation. Thus the difference between fine art and illustration. fine art from ones self and of ones self. Illustration is mostly for others and not often of the artists own will or motivation. Ask coro if he would rather be at home painting a seven foot tall oil painting or if he really wants to paint that grand alien landscape instead. I know the answer.

concepting for games and film are two different beasts. just like concepting for vehicle or technology design in the real world is different from that of games. Each field is a specialty that it takes years to get a handle on and can never be truly mastered. Progress can always be made. This is one of the beauties of our field. we can push and push and push and always improve. The latter being something we have in common with Fine Artists. The second point I might make is that our field is one of the FEW which hold any amount of respect for traditional art and traditional art training." -Jason

"One thing I want to add, and I think in a lot of circumstances it is true - but a lot of concept artists can actually turn towards fine arts if they wanted to, but it the drive of creating an alternate reality that drives many of us.

However, the majority of fine arts practitioners I have met could not handle an conceptual art position for very long at all - why? Time constraints and being required to create on command.

For any artist to do this is is difficult, I know when i first started out, it was also extremely difficult for me, the first week of my employment, I turned out not one piece that was any use.

The other thing is that our artwork mentality has to be extremely functional, in that it has to make sense engineering and function wise, even if we dont know the mechanics ourselves.

Fine arts practioners are purely of a different breed, and I hold bothvocations in high regard since they both take enormous amounts of skill - albeit different skills. To shut out influences and potential inspiration from another source unnessesarily limits your creativity, as an artist, a cull in your creativity means you're serving tables at restaurants." -More from Magicman

[eatbugs]

I don't want to be a professor of art or anatomy its not a title that counts you know. Besides his work is nowhere near da vinci simply because he is a professor or even because he can draw vikings. Lets look at the next level up, painting...he wouldn't even be in the same league as Van Gogh.

I suppose I have been a little harsh on some people and I suppose, as hard as it is, I apologise to TheSomeone who wants to kill me and Shippi who got the wrong impression. Not to say that I'm giving in and saying concept art requires more skill because when painting gets involved its a no show, and judging by the lack of posts right now I'm right. I'm not apologising for my view points though.

[TheSomeone]

I suppose I have been a little harsh on some people and I suppose, as hard as it is, I apologise to TheSomeone who wants to kill me and Shippi who got the wrong impression. Not to say that I'm giving in and saying concept art requires more skill because when painting gets involved its a no show, and judging by the lack of posts right now I'm right. I'm not apologising for my view points though.

That made me laugh. :D

Again, i've never said it requires more skill, but you might want to consider reading my 3 page long post that you might have skipped over, it explains a lot of things concept artist have to face that classical artists don't, and why it requires just as much skill.

I'm still looking forward to seeing you improve and thrive as an artist. Try painting more and posting it.

[eatbugs]

ALRIGHT thats great I will post some of my paintings tommorow to show you that NEW ZEALAND does it better!!
I'll post some drawings as well.
Well for all that arguing I hope there are no hard feelings even though a winning party wasn't determined, I thought it was quite fun throwing back view points and hopefully the next time we bicker like kids (which as long as I'm around I'm sure will happen) someone else will back me up:hmph:

hopefully next time there is a better argument, lets just get back to drawing shall we TheSomeone:D :naughty:

But I really don't think that our view points on art will ever really match, but thats all good

[TheSomeone]

I'm glad it's resolved. :)

About the lack of post though, it's 11 at the western-most side of the states, which means the majority of the world is asleep right now :P. I'm going to go to bed an read a book too, so I'll post more art later.

If you want, you can comment on my anamoty sketches that I just posted in my thread.

[eatbugs]

I will do just that. laters

[eatbugs]

I'll post this up, as I've just now finished. I don't expect raving reviews after all the people I wronged but what the hell, here it is. To show you that I'm not a half-wit that can't shade. Admittedly there are some errors but its better than the faces I have been producing

[Mechagodzilla]

No-one is trying to bring you down; you were just putting the cart before the horse, so to speak.

I'm extremely tired, but here's an MS Paintover of some stuff, just so long as you don't ask why I chose ms paint in the first place. :X

One half of her face is pretty decent, while the other was just plain warped (possibly because the person shifted position or something of that nature). The second picture is what i assume to be the correct proportions, since it's mostly a mirror of the good side (although I can't be entirely sure, since I have no clue what the subject looks like in reality. Assuming that that side is accurate, this should be correct though.)

The only major issue with the good side is that her eye looks a tad large.
Outside of that, the minor issues are with the shading, since there doesn't seem to be a consistent gradient. Again, I don't know what lighting was used in reality but, based on the general lighting shown, the nose shouldn't be shadowed to that darkness at the tip and the lower cheek and jaw should be darker instead.
The result is that it looks a bit scattershot, with the scratchy lines and patchy shading that appear in places, mostly on the hair and neck.

I tried to get the idea across as best I could with MS Paint, because I'm dumb and should have PS'd it.

The rest is good though, and you are right in judging that this shading is a step up over what you had before. Keep up the practice and stuff.

Yay MS Paint:

[CptStern]

I'll post this up, as I've just now finished. I don't expect raving reviews after all the people I wronged but what the hell, here it is. To show you that I'm not a half-wit that can't shade. Admittedly there are some errors but its better than the faces I have been producing


much better

although you should try to pick a single light source ...this is a good example

http://www.artacademy.com/Drawing%20of%20Leela.jpg


or this one

http://www.denysart.com/drawing/victorian.jpg



notice that they both use a single light source ..sure in real life there's sometimes more than one light source but a drawing is more than just slavishly reproducing what you see

[TheSomeone]

That's a huge improvement in shading.

Since Mecha has already posted the theoretical aspect, I'm going to comment on your pencil strokes. They seem to be really all over the place, especially in the hair. Try to make them follow the shape or even keep them all in the same direction.

[chu]

Maybe I misunderstood. eatbugs are you saying that there is more skill in classical art than today's conceptual art or that there is no skill in concept art whatsoever?

[eatbugs]

Chu that argument is over. Thanks all, I know its not going to be great the first time I really apply myself with a face. As mechagodzilla said one side of the face looks a bit warped and I have to agree. CpT stern what medium is the first lady drawn with? I'm interested. And yeh I suppose the lines are all over the show, that was a definate mistake. Thanks guys I'll post up one of my paintings later

As Mecha posts, the head does kind of look a bit wide for the neck

[nofx]

Chu that argument is over. Thanks all, I know its not going to be great the first time I really apply myself with a face. As mechagodzilla said one side of the face looks a bit warped and I have to agree. CpT stern what medium is the first lady drawn with? I'm interested. And yeh I suppose the lines are all over the show, that was a definate mistake. Thanks guys I'll post up one of my paintings later

As Mecha posts, the head does kind of look a bit wide for the neck


It kind of looks like char coal.

[TheSomeone]

That is some skillful handling of charcoal in that case.

[eatbugs]

my personal guess is that it is some kind of conteur crayon. Anyway I was going to post some of my paintings but I'm pretty unorganised and I left my digital camera at my parents so maybe tommorow..

You should try using charcoal to get the different tones TheSomeone

[Maxi]

Wow I can't belive how you critizise other peoples works that are miles ahead of your own. I mean you'res look like the kind of sketches that I can do, and I can't even draw!

You have NO shadowing, and the shadowing you have is non-existant. Free flowing lines seem to be as hard to you as it is for a whale to walk on the beach. You're drawings are about as deep as my shower floor, which isn't deep.

I think these words fit this thread well.

"If you really want to be an artist start listening to what people are saying instead of critiquing other works yourself because, you don't know what you're on about:D :laugh:

The truth can hurt but denial can be an ugly thing!

Cheers we all had a good laugh at your expense:cheers:

You're not the someone you're the noone!
Now who rules???:D That my former friend is ownage!!!!"

[Trask]

Go nuts then, try to out draw him

[CptStern]

CpT stern what medium is the first lady drawn with?

conte (http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/gallery/2001/10/24/coupland1.jpg) or a graphite stick (http://www.homecrafts.co.uk/images/products200/d505.jpg)