for you who want Adrian or 7-hour war. (Spoilers)

[ríomhaire]

First Adrian:
it would be a stupid storyline contradiction to bring him back. The g-man stated he was only there because the g-man liked him, the employers wanted him to be left in the explotion. How can you justify the employers leaving him out? If you say the g-man goes freelancing it would be almost imposible and a waste of time to implement that in the game, how could you actually include that without the g-man telling you outright? It just wouldn't fit. Adrian is going to be left in stasis until the g-man's employers get desperate, and if they can aford to unload Gordon it would make something that would crush Adrian on a whim to to make them that desperate. Adrian in the 7-hour war would make no sense remember what the g-man said "all the efort in the world would have gone to waste. The only way to justify it is if the employers felt like unloading him. (Note, I am not anti-Adrian, I just see no place for him)

7-hour war:
This would possibly be the most unfun thing ever. Wave after wave of synth pounding you. It lasted 7 f**king hours, the humans were anihilated, there have been about 3 wars that lasted shorter amounts of time than that. Plus there would be no deversity, only synths and some xen aliens that got caught in the portal storms. Plus, you know how it ends, imagine pounding synth after synth for 7 hours then suddenly Breen shows up on the radio, "we surrender", rather f**king antclimatic.

Adrian would require to much story twisting and the 7-hour war would be so little fun.

[Jandor]

Portal Storms in the run up to the seven hour war would be cool, trips to Xen, fighting Combine as they come through Xen then to Earth, finished up by the actual 7-Hour war.

As for the anti-climactic ending, the only Half Life game, that ended "happy" was Blue Shift.

[Samon]

Adrian - No.

7-hour war - I'm sure Valve could think of something

[Polaris]

I want Adrian in 7-hour war, G-man can him send to some secret mission during 7 hour war. And why no deversity in figh with enemies? In 7 hour war could fight Cremators, Combine Elite Synth soldiers and many other unknown enemies!
And about "anti-climactic ending", I like bad endings...

Sorry, but Valve (or Gearbox) can explain this story better than you!

[Samon]

I doubt an anticlimatic ending would be in order, i guess it would be just you holding back hundreds of enemies when suddenly Breen surrender us.

[Sufferin-rebel]

yea, and some of the rebels will go "Like the f*ck we are!" and contiune battling them until they are dead..

[ReDeemer_]

Maybe G-Man send Adrian to do some secret mission (as Polaris said), and if wouldnt been Adrian the world would be much worse place or something like that.

[r2000]

Maybe G-Man send Adrian to do some secret mission (as Polaris said), and if wouldnt been Adrian the world would be much worse place or something like that.
Maybe. I was thinking Shepard is sent through to assasinate one of the Combine, or to help shut down their teleportation systems. Sadly, I doubt he gets a part. Hell, he wasn't supposed to escape alive.
As for the 7 hour war, the problem was the Combine materialized in the cities. By the time the military fully mobilized, synths had already smashed them.

[ríomhaire]

yea, and some of the rebels will go "Like the f*ck we are!" and contiune battling them until they are dead..
How could they be rebels? The Combine are not in charge yet so there would be noone to rebel againts

Half Life 2:7-Hours War, Rebel without a cause

[el Chi]

7-hour war:
This would possibly be the most unfun thing ever. Wave after wave of synth pounding you. It lasted 7 f**king hours, the humans were anihilated, there have been about 3 wars that lasted shorter amounts of time than that. Plus there would be no deversity, only synths and some xen aliens that got caught in the portal storms. Plus, you know how it ends, imagine pounding synth after synth for 7 hours then suddenly Breen shows up on the radio, "we surrender", rather f**king antclimatic.I agree that Adrian has no sensible place in C17, but the 7-hour war would be awesome.
Violence in FPSs is usually the extravagant against-all-odds fun we always have, but the 7-hour war could have such an air of doom (no pun intended) and futility to it, it'd be incredible. The point is you DO know how it ends - it's how you get there that's the exciting part.
Plus, it could be done in real time over about 8 hours, say. That way we see the war in its bloody entirity plus the portal storms and influx of aliens before, and the proper arrival of the Combine after the surrender at the end.

[Angry Lawyer]

Portal Storms in the run up to the seven hour war would be cool, trips to Xen, fighting Combine as they come through Xen then to Earth, finished up by the actual 7-Hour war.

As for the anti-climactic ending, the only Half Life game, that ended "happy" was Blue Shift.

Come THROUGH Xen? I thought they were using tunelling teleportation to get straight here without having to stop by any worlds.

And for the first time ever, I actually agree with Riomhaire.

-Angry Lawyer

[Cons Himself]

i think their tunneling required them to have a dark energy reactor here already - Alyx says at some point it powers their tunneling entaglement device...

since you destroyed it at end of HL2 who knows...? perhaps there are others on earth, in other cities.

the portal storms enabled them to establish a beachhead, then they built the citadels so they could control the population and tunnel through more easily and reliably.

[Unimita]

How could they be rebels? The Combine are not in charge yet so there would be noone to rebel againts

Half Life 2:7-Hours War, Rebel without a cause

They'd be civilians taking up arms or attacking back against the invasion forces. I know I would if we were in the middle of an invasion, so the 7-hour war could be an interesting and dramatic, especially with an opening if it starts with you in a peaceful town when suddenly it all starts and everyone reacting differently. If Shepard was in military uniform the civilians would also look to him for help as well.

[ríomhaire]

Come THROUGH Xen? I thought they were using tunelling teleportation to get straight here without having to stop by any worlds.

And for the first time ever, I actually agree with Riomhaire.

-Angry Lawyer
You agreed with me on something to do with headcrabs ;), the fabric of the universe is falling apart! Everyone, get you dementional sowing kits!

[Angry Lawyer]

Yeah, things are going a little strange these days... If you suddenly agree with me on the Combine-Xen lack of connection thing, then I know the world's gonna end.

-Angry Lawyer

[Cons Himself]

why do u think there is no combine-xen connection?

[Fliko]

It is clear this is after Half-Life 2, so that takes away the 7-hour war
You are traveling with Alyx.... well, Adrian doesn't know who the hell Alyx is
defeated both objects, Adrian doesn't seem right for expansions, wouldn't feel right,
he was never part of the official story, just something else
Barney is reasonible though
EDIT: Xen is a border-world, to travel to other worlds. Nihilithan could have been combine, thus allowing the combine to take travel secretly into earth, and build teleporters from 2 different universes (As Breen said "Infact... I will be in another universe)

[Samon]

I'm not sure what your talking about Fliko....but this thread isnt about Aftermath :)

And yeah, the combine are from another universe but this doesn't involve Nihalinth.

And you play as Gordon in aftermath

[UndeadScottsman]

First Adrian:
it would be a stupid storyline contradiction to bring him back. The g-man stated he was only there because the g-man liked him, the employers wanted him to be left in the explotion. How can you justify the employers leaving him out? If you say the g-man goes freelancing it would be almost imposible and a waste of time to implement that in the game, how could you actually include that without the g-man telling you outright? It just wouldn't fit. Adrian is going to be left in stasis until the g-man's employers get desperate, and if they can aford to unload Gordon it would make something that would crush Adrian on a whim to to make them that desperate. Adrian in the 7-hour war would make no sense remember what the g-man said "all the efort in the world would have gone to waste. The only way to justify it is if the employers felt like unloading him. (Note, I am not anti-Adrian, I just see no place for him)
Really, you don't have much of an imagination if you can't think if a single reason why the Gman would pop Adrian out of stasis. All it would take is for something unexpected to happen when Gordon is indisposed and the need for someone like Shephard would be readily apparent.

[Adabiviak]

A 7-hour war expansion is certainly feasable. Adrian would be a fave for many of us, but anyone (Barney, Alyx, any rebel). The first part of the game would include the 7-hour war and the remaining part of the game would be a HL2 expansion (as OF and BS were other points of view for the incident in Black Mesa). I personally think it would be fairly cool to have an expansion where you are a Vortigaunt suddenly freed when the Nihilanth dies (maybe a shot of Gordon somewhere). The portal storms start and suddenly you are on earth - wtf? The storms run their course, you hook up with the rebels, and have glimpses of Gordon on his journey to the Citadel in various places. Is timing an issue? Just have the 'gaunt "help" with a teleportation experiment (after the 7-hour war) and when he comes out, it's much later (with Gordon running around). Easy way around the time discrepancies. What drives me nuts (in a good way) about the HL world is that it's such fertile ground for some fantastic stories that I want Valve to somehow do them all, from everyone's point of view.

[Steel.Inferno]

Another possible setting for an expansion is the week Gordon and Alyx are stuck in the "very slow teleporter." (As well as before and after) Barney was real busy that week, getting the resistance really going.

[Angry Lawyer]

why do u think there is no combine-xen connection?

Don't start me off...

-Angry Lawyer

[Cons Himself]

no i just interested to hear why

[ríomhaire]

Just search the rumours and speculation forum, there was a massive debate between me and Pai-Mei/Angry

[Samon]

no i just interested to hear why

Rumour and speculation forum. Enjoy reading 20 odd pages of theories, half cooked idea's and bickering.

[Angry Lawyer]

And me coming out on top.

Basically, the jist of it is that traditionalists, like Riomhaire, the guy who created the "official HL saga webpage", and most new people believe that the Combine control Xen, and always have (the main idea being that the Nihilanth has a metal life support thing that looks combine-ish). On the other hand, rationalists, like me, Pai-Mei, Samon, Jandor, and a few other super-cool people who are on the list for being the first chosen for getting to play my mod, believe that there's not enough evidence to support any link between the Combine and Xen before the 7 hour war (based upon the fact that Mossman tells you about the differences between the human way of teleportation (going to and from Xen as a stepping stool), and the Combine way (tunneling straight to the target universe).

-Angry Lawyer

[ríomhaire]

I don't think it because of the ass-jet, it's because of what the vorts say, plus the fact they were building up an army, I doubt the controlers neaded grunts to keep a headcrab problem down.

[Element88]

I don't know why and how, but Shepard must be back.
As for the seven hours war:
You know the end and thats the big idea!
You know it's all over but you feel you must do as much damage to the Combine as possible.
A suicide trip.
EVERYONE WHO LIKES THE IDEA OF THE SEVEN HOUR WAR EXPANSION, REPORT!
No, Shepard won't be in it, but it sill can be fun!
We can do the same thing Gearbox did!
And maybe if we ask Valve they would confirm it!

[UndeadScottsman]

And me coming out on top.

Basically, the jist of it is that traditionalists, like Riomhaire, the guy who created the "official HL saga webpage", and most new people believe that the Combine control Xen, and always have (the main idea being that the Nihilanth has a metal life support thing that looks combine-ish). On the other hand, rationalists, like me, Pai-Mei, Samon, Jandor, and a few other super-cool people who are on the list for being the first chosen for getting to play my mod, believe that there's not enough evidence to support any link between the Combine and Xen before the 7 hour war (based upon the fact that Mossman tells you about the differences between the human way of teleportation (going to and from Xen as a stepping stool), and the Combine way (tunneling straight to the target universe).

-Angry Lawyer

What, the whole "Slaves.. We are slaves... We are slaves.. We are.." quote from the Nihilanth and the "That sharp spur of hope has not dulled to this day. For once the lesser master lay defeated, we knew the greater must also fall in time." connection didn't tip you off? :D

Oh, and it might be prudent to can that elitest additude. You're arguing over plot points in a videogame, after all. No reason to get snobby about it.

[ríomhaire]

"Slaves.. We are slaves... We are slaves.. We are.."
Slaves to the controlers

"That sharp spur of hope has not dulled to this day. For once the lesser master lay defeated, we knew the greater must also fall in time."
The g-man


Oh, and it might be prudent to can that elitest additude. You're arguing over plot points in a videogame, after all. No reason to get snobby about it.
Seconded, realy winning this arguement would put down your social standing

[UndeadScottsman]

Slaves to the controlers


The g-man

So, dispite the fact the Nihilanth has had surgical work done on him, not to mention machinery added to him (Which no other Xen critter had.. Even pre-release material mentioned the Xen Grunts as growing their armour), those previous quotes can't possibly be related to each other? Right...

And it's not wise to assume ANYTHING about the Gman. Especially when there's already a much more present "enslaving" force in the storyline and even more so when said enslaving race would have had to have noticed Xen long before they started exploiting worlds beyond it.

[Kitfox]

7 hour war expantion - You are a civilian fighting for the good side you lose you get captured and converted to a combine the next part of the game play out as a combine soldier. Greatest Idea ever.

[Edcrab]

I really could see the 7 hour war working, personally. And if Gordon can be dropped back into the action in Aftermath- despite the apparent closure of HL2's ending- I see no reason why Adrian can't "randomly" return from his (supposed) isolation following Op4.

7 Hour War- starts off as an ordinary day, in an ordinary city- a city with a name, for one thing. Takes the pre-disaster portions of the original games (and its SP mods) to a whole new meaning- everyday life going ahead, people driving to work, shopping, hailing taxis...

And then when you're in a cinema, or a supermarket, or even a street, the portals start. People flee in terror, perhaps doors seal themselves as a confused security system kicks in, you're left to fend for yourself amongst the chaos, and just as you emerge from the theatre/mall/office block all hell breaks lose as actual combat units begin to appear...

Well, I think it'd be great.

[Cons Himself]

Slaves to the controlers


The g-man


Seconded, realy winning this arguement would put down your social standing

Nihilanth says we are slaves - he was saying he was a slave of the controllers?

So the gman helped you defeat one of his underlings - the lesser master? Why?

I have to say, i dont think the teleportation thing prooves anything. The Xen teleportation was a local teleportation - a slingshot to get to other places on earth right? But the combine teleportation is more like wormholes - getting from one planet directly to another yeah?

How does that proove the combine didnt control xen?

[Laivasse]

How does that proove the combine didnt control xen?

Because the Combine can't locally teleport on Earth, but would love to be able to do so. If they even knew about the existence of Xen, let alone controlled it, they would be able to make use of local teleportation.

Back on topic - 7 hour war wouldn't work, and Adrian Shepard's flabby corpse is lying at the bottom of a chasm of G-man's choosing.

[UndeadScottsman]

Because the Combine can't locally teleport on Earth, but would love to be able to do so. If they even knew about the existence of Xen, let alone controlled it, they would be able to make use of local teleportation.

Uh, no, that's not what was said at all. The Black Mesa scientists utlized Xen as a rebound point for local teleportation (Dr. Mossman even says this when you first meet her). In effect, it's not "local" transportation at all, it just allows for teleportation from one Earth based destination to the next, by way of Xen.

Back on topic - 7 hour war wouldn't work, and Adrian Shepard's flabby corpse is lying at the bottom of a chasm of G-man's choosing.
7 hour war could EASILY work, but would I want to see it? Nah, we know what happened, lets see something new. And if the Gman wanted to kill Adrian, he would have done so at the end of Op4.

[Edcrab]

Meh, this (http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?t=73210&page=4&pp=15) is the definitive thread on the Combine/Xen subject as far as I'm concerned (insofar as my involvement goes, as it was the only one I repeatedly contributed to).

Regardless of what the "evidence" might indicate, you have to remember that Valve are ultimately responsible for their own decisions and what might seem incredibly obvious might be subtley (or not-so-subtley) altered for the sake of back story/dramatic effect. You never know what might turn out to be the truth...

I think the 7 Hour War would be best served as a real-time (high quality) user-made modification, rather than a dedicated Valve project. And I resent the implication that Adrian is dead :P

[pomegranate]

Because the Combine can't locally teleport on Earth, but would love to be able to do so. If they even knew about the existence of Xen, let alone controlled it, they would be able to make use of local teleportation.


Um... You killed Nihilanth to stop a certain invasion, didn't you?
So it makes sense to me that the Combine had Nihilanth enslaved to harness his powers of transportation, and once Gordon killed him, they lost that ability. Fits together like a goddamn jigsaw puzzle for me...

[Samon]

Um... You killed Nihilanth to stop a certain invasion, didn't you?
So it makes sense to me that the Combine had Nihilanth enslaved to harness his powers of transportation, and once Gordon killed him, they lost that ability. Fits together like a goddamn jigsaw puzzle for me...

No because if they did have control of Nihalinth they wouldn't have simply left it up to him - they would have gotten the technology and learnt to manipulate it themselves, not just leave some pompass asshole in a border world sitting about.

You actually killed the Nihilanth to seal the rift between Earth and the border world when actually it just ticked off the portal storms.

[UndeadScottsman]

No because if they did have control of Nihalinth they wouldn't have simply left it up to him - they would have gotten the technology and learnt to manipulate it themselves, not just leave some pompass asshole in a border world sitting about.
Powers of the mind != technology, just a FYI.

[Jandor]

http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?t=72731

Sticky this thread.

It's ironic, Pai-Mai starts getting annoyed that no one recognizes his theory, Dissapears from HL2.net (I havn't seen him) and then people start changing there mind.

[Samon]

Sticky this thread.

It's ironic, Pai-Mai starts getting annoyed that no one recognizes his theory, Dissapears from HL2.net (I havn't seen him) and then people start changing there mind.

If that is why he left, then he should stop bieng stupid. Its his theory, and thats nice but if people don't think its any good then thats no call to leave :|

[mcfadz]

The only real way I can see the 7 hours war working, is if you changed the gameplay experience completely.
Make the player a soldier, and give him a squad to command.
Put some tactics into the gameplay.
Otherwise, it would probably just be... *yawn*
more running around on your own destroying everything single handed.

[Angry Lawyer]

So, dispite the fact the Nihilanth has had surgical work done on him, not to mention machinery added to him

So, only the Combine know how to stitch things together? You don't think that any other race can use a needle and scalpel? Look at our own culture - even WE surgically alter our people, and add metal parts to things (albeit in not as obvious a way, because, as a species, we are really vain).

-Angry Lawyer

[Noobulon]

And then when you're in a cinema, or a supermarket, or even a street, the portals start. People flee in terror, perhaps doors seal themselves as a confused security system kicks in, you're left to fend for yourself amongst the chaos, and just as you emerge from the theatre/mall/office block all hell breaks lose as actual combat units begin to appear...

Well, I think it'd be great.


THIS IDEA F**KING PWNS

Why can't you guys see the awesomeness? :bounce:

[Angry Lawyer]

That's actually kinda cool. Although a little cliche'd - seems reminiscent of HL1's beginning.

-Angry Lawyer

[Jandor]

If that is why he left, then he should stop bieng stupid. Its his theory, and thats nice but if people don't think its any good then thats no call to leave


I dont know why he left ;) . I just thought it was really coincedental.

[Samon]

Hehe, I think so too.

[FRESCO_SUPREME]

THIS IDEA F**KING PWNS

Why can't you guys see the awesomeness? :bounce:

i second that

[ríomhaire]

The 7-hour war could only be you as a BM scientist or a soldier in action. Ordinary people don't have a HEV / PCV lying around the cinema so that idea is gone. I never realy liked the idea of BS giving you only body-armour and a magic HUD.

[pomegranate]

I think it's pretty obvious that Nihlanth's teleportation was a natural ability, not technology. As in, the-teleportation-spheres-come-out-of-his-head-duh-duh.

But I do see the contradiction of the portal storms after him dieing. Maybe all of the portal storms happened before Gordon killed him? Half-Life took place over two-three days, maybe time runs slower on Xen?
Ultimately, we don't actually know enough to be able to write off any theories, especialy not with the kind of nastiness demonstrated in this thread.
I think there is more evidence for the Combine-conquering-Xen theory than there is against it. Just 'cos you don't like it is a poor reason to diss it (that's not addressed to anyone in particular). I think it's just a pretty neat idea myself and haven't seen any better suggestions yet.

[UndeadScottsman]

So, only the Combine know how to stitch things together? You don't think that any other race can use a needle and scalpel? Look at our own culture - even WE surgically alter our people, and add metal parts to things (albeit in not as obvious a way, because, as a species, we are really vain).

-Angry Lawyer

It fits the Combine's MO. It fits it extremly well, I might add. Like I said, why go around assuming that it's some other power we have yet to see when we already have a VERY obvious suspect who specificly go from world to world and enslave the population, and who would probably have discovered Xen quite early on in their their exploration of the various dimensions. If we later get evidence that disagree's with that assumption, then we'll have to rework the theory of course, but such evidence has yet to present itself.

Right now, all signs point to the Combine.

[UndeadScottsman]

I think it's pretty obvious that Nihlanth's teleportation was a natural ability, not technology. As in, the-teleportation-spheres-come-out-of-his-head-duh-duh.

But I do see the contradiction of the portal storms after him dieing. Maybe all of the portal storms happened before Gordon killed him? Half-Life took place over two-three days, maybe time runs slower on Xen?

Well, lets look at what causes the portal storms in the first place. A crystal sample was pushed into the anti-mass spectometer. This caused the resonance cascade that created a rift between our world and Xen, and started the first of the portal storms. Later, Doctors Keller, Green and Cross managed to used an array of similar crystals to seal the rift, but by that time the accidental teleportation of Xen wildlife had turned into (what appeared to me at least) the puposeful teleportation of a Xen invasion. It was later said that there was a portal in Xen that was being created by the intense concentration of a single powerful being.

Now, as an aside, you might be wondering why the hell would the Nihilanth give two bags of Vortigaunt droppings about Earth, especially enough of a damn to persue an invasion? My guess is the Nihilanth wasn't too happy at Earth when they started showing up an stealing live specimines, and especially stealing that crystal.

Anywho, the crystal brings me to my last point. A long time ago, shortly after HL was released, Mark Laidlaw did an interview where he was asked about what elements of the story he didn't feel were protrayed as well as he liked. This is what he said.

there were a few story threads we didn’t introduce early enough, and others we didn’t follow through on. That crystal sample in the opening, for instance, should have been clearly echoed in the Nihilanth’s chamber—and even down inside its gaping cranium. That was the plan. But we ran out of time to make the clear visual association.
Source: http://www.loonygames.com/content/1.34/feat/index2.php

I submit that the extremly pure sample, which caused the resonance cascade, is also one of the reason for the Nihilanth to attack earth once he realized where the theives of the crystal were (and possibly to retrieve the crystal)

Anywho, back to the topic at hand. We know what created the initial portal storm (the crystal sample), what stopped it (an array of similar crystals), and what continued the invasion (the Nihilanth, who has a huge crystal in his noggin). To stop the invasion, Gordon killed the Nihilanth by pounding on it's head as hard as possible, resulting in the Nihilanth's death and him to spazz out and start randomly generating energy beams and whatnot. I propose that this caused a similar effect of the resonance cascade, only to a greater degree do to the Nihilanths massive power. Boom; widespread portal storms that no little array of crystals can stop. Cue the moving into cities and abandoning of rural areas, and then the 7 hour war.

[pomegranate]

^ Great ideas. Extra points for 'spazz out'.

[Jandor]

There where no Combine on Xen at the time of Half Life 1. They hadn't been thought up then and Valve gave no clear indication that the Combine were in control of Xen at the time of Half Life 1, in Half Life 2.

Just look at Earth, Look at the Stalkers, look at the heavy mechanical augmentation of the Humans. Then look at the Vortigaunts, they have a collar on.
Humans have there limbs hacked off, there brain functions severed and lasers fitted to them. Vortigaunts have a collar placed on them.

Why go so far on Humans yet do basically bugger all to the Vortigaunts?

not to mention the fact of the heavily natural look to Xen and the incredibly mechanised feel to everything Combine on Earth.
The fact that the Controllers have no shackles on them.
The fact that everyone assumes the Combine on Xen theory to be true because of a fancy site by a Half Life fan.

I think it's just a pretty neat idea myself and haven't seen any better suggestions yet.

Have you tried looking? :P

[pomegranate]

I haven't tried looking 'cos I'm not that bothered, what I mean is that haven't seen anything better on here, tho I check out these forums extensively most days... Care to point me, or give your ideas?

That 'fancy site' has had some approval from Marc Laidlaw...

Jandor, there's no Combine on Earth in HL2.
Agreed, there is no clear indication that the Combine were on Xen. If there were we wouldn't have this debate. But if the Combine weren't somehow in control of Xen, why else did the Vortigaunts have the collar and shackle things on in HL1, but not HL2? Why were they hostile to humans in HL1, but not in HL2? Why did they join the humans to fight the Combine occupation?
The visible differences between Vort enslavement and human enslavement don't really mean anything, we don't know what the collars actually did or how they worked, and we don't know anything about Vortigaunt physiology - so we can't compare how you might control them. Besides, not all humans were altered as drastically as the stalkers - the metrocops and soldiers were apparently still mostly human, if a bit pale ( ;) ). They still spoke and could understand speech (e.g. the Overwatch announcement system/Breen's speech to the Overwatch).

Something else has occured to me - doesn't the Vortigaunt sweeping up the railway station at the start wear a collar, or at least the shackles? Wouldn't that prove it to any of you doubters?
My computer's too slow, and it's too late, for me to be bothered to check.

[UndeadScottsman]

There where no Combine on Xen at the time of Half Life 1. They hadn't been thought up then and Valve gave no clear indication that the Combine were in control of Xen at the time of Half Life 1, in Half Life 2.
Now you'rer just making an assumption you can't possibly back up without talking to Valve. While they may not have fleshed out the Combine in any depth, it's obvious they wanted to present the Nihilanth as being subjugated by some force. Even if they started out entirely as a single-lined "Some cybernetic race of enslavers" quote on a piece of Laidlaw's notebook paper, that would still make them have existed since HL1. We can't know either way, so the point is moot.

Plus, there was a LOT in Half-Life 2 that wasn't addressed (Right down to important bits of backstory)

Just look at Earth, Look at the Stalkers, look at the heavy mechanical augmentation of the Humans. Then look at the Vortigaunts, they have a collar on.
Humans have there limbs hacked off, there brain functions severed and lasers fitted to them. Vortigaunts have a collar placed on them.

Why go so far on Humans yet do basically bugger all to the Vortigaunts?

Because the Vortigaunts are a hive-minded race and all the Combine really had to do is hack up the Nihilanth (Who was most certainly just as messed up as the Stalkers) and boom, they've got access to the Vortigaunts as well; Slap shock collars on the 'gaunts just in case they every fall out of range of the Nihilanth.

not to mention the fact of the heavily natural look to Xen and the incredibly mechanised feel to everything Combine on Earth.
How is this relevent? Unlike humans; the Vortigaunts don't need tons of augmentation to ensure their loyalty. After taking control of the Nihilanth, the Combine probably would have moved on long ago. Xen isn't exactly hospitible after all, and it didn't look like there was very many places that would support a citidel very well. They had total control of the Nihilanth; let the slaves do the hard work of maintaining the borderworld. It's not like some guy is going to run in and kill the Nihilanth single handedly, right? :D

The fact that the Controllers have no shackles on them.
I always thought the thing in their head looked very mechanical, as well as implanted. But beyond that, why assume that the Controllers were controlling the Nihilanth? It always appeared to me that they were spreading the Nihilanth telepathic influence to Vortigaunts and Grunts.

The fact that everyone assumes the Combine on Xen theory to be true because of a fancy site by a Half Life fan.
And now you're just trying to piss people off by calling them followers. Fail. How would you like it if I said that everyone who tries to discredit the theory is just looking for attention and being different for different's sake?

The possibility of the connection became obvious to me when the Vortigaunt started talking about the lesser and greater masters and it meshed with the Slaves comment from the original Nihilanth. Not to mention it explains why the Nihilanth looks he was seriously altered, surgically, and has cybernetic implants (Seriously, look at him, his lower torso is a giant machine) and even meshes with how the Nihilanth bears a similar appearance in skin tone to the Combine Advisor. It also explains why the Vortigaunts on Earth who are under the combine's control were wearing their old slave collars.

[Laivasse]

Something else has occured to me - doesn't the Vortigaunt sweeping up the railway station at the start wear a collar, or at least the shackles? Wouldn't that prove it to any of you doubters?

I'm just wondering what on earth that's supposed to prove... If I use a collar on my dog, am I part of the Combine?

Now you'rer just making an assumption you can't possibly back up without talking to Valve. While they may not have fleshed out the Combine in any depth, it's obvious they wanted to present the Nihilanth as being subjugated by some force. Even if they started out entirely as a single-lined "Some cybernetic race of enslavers" quote on a piece of Laidlaw's notebook paper, that would still make them have existed since HL1. We can't know either way, so the point is moot.

Not moot - if Valve had wanted to imply a retroactive link between the Combine and Xen, they would have left devices to doing so in HL2. The vortigaunt quotes are far too obscure and open to interpretation to base your view upon, in light of all the things that suggest the Combine don't even know about Xen's existence. Just the fact that there's are 2 bad guys doesn't mean that they are necessarily linked to eachother.

not to mention the fact of the heavily natural look to Xen and the incredibly mechanised feel to everything Combine on Earth.

How is this relevent? Unlike humans; the Vortigaunts don't need tons of augmentation to ensure their loyalty. After taking control of the Nihilanth, the Combine probably would have moved on long ago. Xen isn't exactly hospitible after all, and it didn't look like there was very many places that would support a citidel very well. They had total control of the Nihilanth; let the slaves do the hard work of maintaining the borderworld.

It's entirely relevant and it suggests very strongly that Valve wanted to draw a distinct line between the enemies you face in each game. In one you face lifeforms where everything has some sort of biological connection...even the bits of the planet that gate over to earth seem to be almost like living tissue. In the next, everything about them is somewhat mechanical. Metal walls, that are somehow still alive and swallow stuff. There is a clear difference in concept.

Furthermore, from what we see of the Combine in HL2, they don't "move on", and just let a planet carry on ticking by. The human race is due for extinction under the Combine, and we're being assimilated into their front lines in a number of ways - yet they are supposed to have turned up on Xen and then shot on by without ANY gain whatsoever, apart from pride, or something? No Xen technology used in Earth's conquest, no Xen aliens in Combine forces, they can't use Xen to teleport, and they left nothing lasting on Xen...so what was the point?

The fact that everyone assumes the Combine on Xen theory to be true because of a fancy site by a Half Life fan.

And now you're just trying to piss people off by calling them followers. Fail.

Still when people turn up here looking for the backstory, among the first few replies they'll get is a link to that site, saying "here's the story" - "RTFM" if you will. "Fail" yourself. Get over your pride and accept the fact that most people are willing to accept the first thing they read as Gospel. The awkward ones are those unwilling to weigh up the evidence objectively.

The possibility of the connection became obvious to me when the Vortigaunt started talking about the lesser and greater masters and it meshed with the Slaves comment from the original Nihilanth. Not to mention it explains why the Nihilanth looks he was seriously altered, surgically, and has cybernetic implants (Seriously, look at him, his lower torso is a giant machine) and even meshes with how the Nihilanth bears a similar appearance in skin tone to the Combine Advisor. It also explains why the Vortigaunts on Earth who are under the combine's control were wearing their old slave collars.

Well, that pretty much sums up the entire Combine on Xen argument. 2 hazily worded quotes and some modifications to the Nihilanth which could have been performed by anyone - could even just be there to look cool. The skin tone thing is really scraping the barrel...you'll discount the aesthetic difference between Xen and the Combine on Earth, yet you'll try and draw a link between Nihilanth and the advisor based on some kind of off-beige skin? Are you suggesting they are the same race...?

Also, the shackles on the vorts in HL2 are NOT the same, someone checked it out. They're a different colour, there's more of them, and in HL2 the collars have a little hoop at the top (for a chain, poss...?)

[r2000]

My opinion

Combine->Combine Advisor->Nihilanth->Voritguant Mutations (grunts, controllers, garg?)->Vortiguants

Simply because the railway and Nova Prospekt vorts are shackled up the same way. And they look like the HL1 vorts. Remember, computers looked crappy at the time. Finer details may have been hard to tell.

[UndeadScottsman]

I'm just wondering what on earth that's supposed to prove... If I use a collar on my dog, am I part of the Combine?Depends; did the dog's race collectively remove their collars after being freed, and only the ones that are still subjugated wear them? One’s that look remarkable like the old ones?

Not moot - if Valve had wanted to imply a retroactive link between the Combine and Xen, they would have left devices to doing so in HL2. The vortigaunt quotes are far too obscure and open to interpretation to base your view upon, in light of all the things that suggest the Combine don't even know about Xen's existence. Just the fact that there's are 2 bad guys doesn't mean that they are necessarily linked to eachother.Actually, it IS moot, because as I've said before, there's a ton of stuff that HL2 only slightly implies and never gets across (One of the games few flaws, IMO.) You wouldn't have any proof that the Stalkers were at one point normal humans (or even human at all) if you didn't read the strategy guide or Raising the Bar. Looking at what we know: We KNOW the Vortiguants were enslaved. We KNOW the Combine go from dimension to dimension enslaving the races they find useful. We KNOW the Combine like to use cybernetics and we KNOW the Nihilanth was surgically altered with cybernetics. We can either make the easy assumption and link the two races, or we ignore the easy link and come up with even more elaborate and convoluted explanations.

It's entirely relevant and it suggests very strongly that Valve wanted to draw a distinct line between the enemies you face in each game. In one you face lifeforms where everything has some sort of biological connection...even the bits of the planet that gate over to earth seem to be almost like living tissue. In the next, everything about them is somewhat mechanical. Metal walls, that are somehow still alive and swallow stuff. There is a clear difference in concept.But how is that relevent? Combine controlling Xen does not mean that Xen is going to be exactly like the Combine. I don't see why you think it would have to be otherwise. Combine show up, fight a battle(maybe not even that, the Vorts might have been tricked into subjugation for all we know, or just plainly didn’t know about it until it was too late), engineer/modify the Nihilanth to take control of the hivemind, incorporate any technology worth incorporating (Since the Xen race's technology is mostly organic, it was most likely used to augment the Combine's synth technology, if anything.) and move on to the next world. Xen is incredibly inhospitable which makes it pretty useless for colonization (Unlike Earth, which is a large stable landmass instead of a bunch of tiny floating islands. :D)

Furthermore, from what we see of the Combine in HL2, they don't "move on", and just let a planet carry on ticking by. The human race is due for extinction under the Combine, and we're being assimilated into their front lines in a number of ways –yet they are supposed to have turned up on Xen and then shot on by without ANY gain whatsoever, apart from pride, or something? No Xen technology used in Earth's conquest, no Xen aliens in Combine forces, they can't use Xen to teleport, and they left nothing lasting on Xen...so what was the point?You misunderstood me, I meant that the Combine would move their forces to a new dimension to colonize once there was no longer a need for them to remain on the last world. (Humans on Earth would keep fighting to the last man, so to speak, which means the Combine need to keep an eye on them until they're full absorbed. Whereas the Vort’s permanently fall in line as long as the Nihilanth is around; no reason to have a ton of soldiers and equipment around, so it's on to the next world.)

Also, they didn't "shoot on by," they took control of Xen by way of the Nihilanth and used him and his people to maintain control of the realm; while the Nihilanth is around, the Vortigaunts ARE the Combine (Just because they don't have shiny suits or neato weapons doesn't mean they can't be under the Combine's sway). When the Nihilanth got destroyed the Combine's major power over the Vortigaunts would be lost (Even so, they still had a few enslaved by way of the collars; see the street sweeper.) We haven’t seen the 7 hour war so its unknown how many Vortiguants would have still been under the Combine’s sway when they invaded. Possibly enough to aid the invasion, possibly not enough to even bother with using them in a war that lasted all of seven hours.

When you think about it they did a similar thing on Earth, actually. However, they had to convert humans one by one because they’re not hiveminded. Notice how there wasn't a single "Combine" combine anywhere; they were all mass-produced biomachinary and converted humans. Again, after the Nihilanth was destroyed, the Combine lost their kingpin for Xen and access to anything the big baby was controlling.

Still when people turn up here looking for the backstory, among the first few replies they'll get is a link to that site, saying "here's the story" - "RTFM" if you will. "Fail" yourself. Get over your pride and accept the fact that most people are willing to accept the first thing they read as Gospel. The awkward ones are those unwilling to weigh up the evidence objectively.
Hey, what did I just say? Please stop with the elitest additude. It’s not worth insulting the intelligence of those who disagree with you anymore than it’s worth it for me to insult you for the silly things I think you're doing. We're talking about stuff in a videogame, after all. Calling people followers only serves to try to incite them.

Now, I might be wrong, yes, but as far as I see, all the evidence either points to a Combine-Xen link or that Valve placed clues that look like they line up, but in reality don’t go anywhere and all the links are just coincidences. (The Nihilanth wasn’t modified with cybernetics and set to enslave the Vortigaunts by the Combine, who signitures and enslavement and cybernetics, it was modified with cybernetics and set to enslave the Vortigaunts by some OTHER group!)

Well, that pretty much sums up the entire Combine on Xen argument. 2 hazily worded quotes and some modifications to the Nihilanth which could have been performed by anyone - could even just be there to look cool. The skin tone thing is really scraping the barrel...you'll discount the aesthetic difference between Xen and the Combine on Earth, yet you'll try and draw a link between Nihilanth and the advisor based on some kind of off-beige skin? Are you suggesting they are the same race...?

No, I was suggesting they used some "Combine Advisor" DNA when they modified the Nihilanth. And again, once the Nihilanth was under their control, the Combine didn’t need to dump a ton of Combine crap all over Xen. They had the Vortigaunts to extend and maintain their influence in Xen, a realm which isn’t well suited to most species. Even so, I agree the skin color thing is a very, very tenuous link and I wasn’t using it for the basis of my beliefs at all. Take it or leave it, it doesn't matter to me. There’s still other links around. It’s the “cherry on top” so, to speak; not scraping the bottom of the barral as you put it. Again; the Combine like to enslave things in other dimensions; the Vortigaunts were enslaved. Either we make up a third party (Which, while a possibility theory, it has zero evidence to support it at this time (And of course, that could very well change)), or we draw the link.

Also, the shackles on the vorts in HL2 are NOT the same, someone checked it out. They're a different colour, there's more of them, and in HL2 the collars have a little hoop at the top (for a chain, poss...?)
HL2 Vortigaunts are missing the third finger on their middle hand and have much longer necks (Which is why two collars fit on them, unlike in Half-Life), does that make them a different race altogether? The collars and shackels are in the same locations and are green (They just don’t have the garish chrome color which was all the rage during HL1’s era.. which makes sense since a slave race typically isn’t going to have shiny shackles) And for the record, the HL1 collars have the loop too. :)

[Jandor]

Im in a rush and can't be bothered to quote all that.

The one major thing that convinces me is. The Combine, supposedly built Nihilanth, a huge being designed to teleport things around. Yet in HL2, Mossman states that the Combine don't know how to use Xen to teleport. Infact, Combine teleportation is completely different to Xen based teleportation.

After enslaving the race that knows how to do it, making a giant version of the race that knows how to do it, and using the technology to invade Earth via Xen forces. They suddenly got mass amnesia?

[Samon]

Im in a rush and can't be bothered to quote all that.

The one major thing that convinces me is. The Combine, supposedly built Nihilanth, a huge being designed to teleport things around. Yet in HL2, Mossman states that the Combine don't know how to use Xen to teleport. Infact, Combine teleportation is completely different to Xen based teleportation.

After enslaving the race that knows how to do it, making a giant version of the race that knows how to do it, and using the technology to invade Earth via Xen forces. They suddenly got mass amnesia?

Exactly.

[Angry Lawyer]

Im in a rush and can't be bothered to quote all that.

The one major thing that convinces me is. The Combine, supposedly built Nihilanth, a huge being designed to teleport things around. Yet in HL2, Mossman states that the Combine don't know how to use Xen to teleport. Infact, Combine teleportation is completely different to Xen based teleportation.

After enslaving the race that knows how to do it, making a giant version of the race that knows how to do it, and using the technology to invade Earth via Xen forces. They suddenly got mass amnesia?

Smackdown administered. If anyone can come back at that with something plausible, then I'll forever respect them.

-Angry Lawyer

[ríomhaire]

Why does everything me, Jandor and Angry post in turn into a Combine-onXen discustion?

[$kelet0r]

I guess otherwise you'd never talk to each other lol
besides i refuse to argue - i await enlightenment
although Angry LAwyer's theory is fairly weak - not impossible - as it is based only on things that haven't been said or fully fleshed out .... the argument of the impossible as opposed to the possible

[Samon]

His argument is actually quite strong.

[Jandor]

for you who want Adrian or 7-hour war. (Spoilers)
Why does everything me, Jandor and Angry post in turn into a Combine-onXen discustion?

Hehe, I think these two topics are blatantly related ;) .

although Angry LAwyer's theory is fairly weak - not impossible - as it is based only on things that haven't been said or fully fleshed out .... the argument of the impossible as opposed to the possible


How is it weak? I want to know, because it got me convinced, and it took a lot of doing.

That 'fancy site' has had some approval from Marc Laidlaw...

http://img38.echo.cx/img38/5839/ixt2xz.th.jpg (http://img38.echo.cx/my.php?image=ixt2xz.jpg)

I feel it get's my feelings across better than words ;) .

[pomegranate]

Im in a rush and can't be bothered to quote all that.

The one major thing that convinces me is. The Combine, supposedly built Nihilanth, a huge being designed to teleport things around. Yet in HL2, Mossman states that the Combine don't know how to use Xen to teleport. Infact, Combine teleportation is completely different to Xen based teleportation.

After enslaving the race that knows how to do it, making a giant version of the race that knows how to do it, and using the technology to invade Earth via Xen forces. They suddenly got mass amnesia?

I don't know where you get "built Nihilanth" from. I don't think anyone here has suggested that, and the source that some people seem so annoyed by (The Half Life Saga Story Guide) actually suggests something explicitly different to this.
I don't recall exactly what Mossman said, but I do agree that Nihilanth's teleportation was distinct from the Combine's. However, I think this actually supports the idea that the Combine enslaved Nihilanth:
'Adapting' Nihilanth into the Combine and forcing it to do their bidding gave them a distinct tactical advantage in whatever endeavours they're involved in - being able to transport beasties or whatever, to very particular locations, rather than just shifting massive hunks of metal across the universe.

As I said before, I don't think Nihilanth's teleportation ability was technology. I think it was a natural ability, not something that could be stolen or copied. Thus when Gordon killed Nihilanth, they lost this ability - not forgot.
So for me it follows that if it wasn't for Gordon, the Combine's invasion plan may have been more based on sending over Vortigaunts and Alien Grunts to Earth, instead of being required to create their own bases there.

So, not smacked down, really. Sorry.

[Jandor]

It's a natural ability is it, The Combine didn't make him that way then? Then what is there to say the Combine where on Xen?
How come so many Combine on Xen theorists use the stictches and the "ass-jet" as proof the Combine where there and that they altered the Nihilanth?
How come a large intergalactic and interdimensional Empire can't figure out how Nihilanth is doing it?

[pomegranate]

How come a large intergalactic and interdimensional Empire can't figure out how Nihilanth is doing it?

Maybe it just beyond their ability to figure it out (no matter how smart you are, there's always someone smarter than you out there). Maybe it was something Nihlanth had evolved to be able to do. Maybe they were in the process of figuring it out when Gordon killed him. There's lots of maybes. All it needs is a little imagination and open-mindedness.

Then what is there to say the Combine where on Xen?
How come so many Combine on Xen theorists use the stictches and the "ass-jet" as proof the Combine where there and that they altered the Nihilanth?

It's not just that, it's also that the Vortigaunts were slaves in HL1 and chose to fight against the Combine on Earth. It's also that, hmm, humans develop teleportation, get (partly) invaded by the Xen, then go over to the border world and cause a major disturbance, and then, hmm - just a few short years later get invaded by another alien power. A power that, according to theory-deniers, have absolutely no connection with Xen. Seems a bit coincidental to me, unless humans also went over to some other planet using their teleportation, which seems unlikely after the big-boom-smash that finished Black Mesa.

[Jandor]

Maybe it just beyond their ability to figure it out (no matter how smart you are, there's always someone smarter than you out there). Maybe it was something Nihlanth had evolved to be able to do. Maybe they were in the process of figuring it out when Gordon killed him. There's lots of maybes. All it needs is a little imagination and open-mindedness.


You can make anything fit with the storyline if you try hard enough.

It's not just that, it's also that the Vortigaunts were slaves in HL1 and chose to fight against the Combine on Earth. It's also that, hmm, humans develop teleportation, get (partly) invaded by the Xen, then go over to the border world and cause a major disturbance, and then, hmm - just a few short years later get invaded by another alien power. A power that, according to theory-deniers, have absolutely no connection with Xen. Seems a bit coincidental to me, unless humans also went over to some other planet using their teleportation, which seems unlikely after the big-boom-smash that finished Black Mesa.


The Vortigaunts choose to fight with you in HL2 because they are no longer slaves to Nihilanth (You did kill him), then along comes the Combine, who wants to enslave them again.
why would they not fight, I fail to see how this shows anything.

I can't totally explain how the Combine know where here, maybe a huge interdimensional radar picked up on the Cascade, maybe the Portal storms attracted there attention, maybe the Portal Storms pulled them off course. etc. etc.
A lot more plausible than the thicky stupid Combine can't figure out what Nihilanth is doing because it's natural.

You remind me of me, I used to use the "it's natural" argument as well ;) .

Also, I'm not a "theory-denier". It's a different theory.

[OvA]

With Breen's mention of another Universe, maybe the Combine are from an alternate universe and the Xen they took over was different from the one we speak of, or maybe they inhabit an alternate Earth? Kinda far-fetched but eh.

[D.Bag]

How could they be rebels? The Combine are not in charge yet so there would be noone to rebel againts

Half Life 2:7-Hours War, Rebel without a cause

HL2 nerds rival Star Wars/Trek nerds.

[Laivasse]

The idea that the Combine used Nihilanth to teleport, then lost the ability when he died is flawed. Humans in HL2 have developed teleportation based solely on the fact that they know Xen exists and use it as a slingshot. The Combine seek this tech - it's part of the whole resistance betrayal plot. Mossman has helped the Combine build a portal which utilises Xen, by ripping off Eli's research. Why would the Combine not be able to do this on their own, if they had controlled Xen? It points to the fact that they don't even know Xen exists.

The Vortigaunts choose to fight with you in HL2 because they are no longer slaves to Nihilanth (You did kill him), then along comes the Combine, who wants to enslave them again.
why would they not fight, I fail to see how this shows anything.

Seconded 1000-fold. I don't see how this could be made into an argument. It would be in the nature of any creature with a self-preservation instinct to fight the Combine.

It's also that, hmm, humans develop teleportation, get (partly) invaded by the Xen, then go over to the border world and cause a major disturbance, and then, hmm - just a few short years later get invaded by another alien power. A power that, according to theory-deniers, have absolutely no connection with Xen. Seems a bit coincidental to me.

All it needs is a little imagination and open-mindedness.

Too right.

[UndeadScottsman]

Im in a rush and can't be bothered to quote all that.

The one major thing that convinces me is. The Combine, supposedly built Nihilanth, a huge being designed to teleport things around. Yet in HL2, Mossman states that the Combine don't know how to use Xen to teleport. Infact, Combine teleportation is completely different to Xen based teleportation.

After enslaving the race that knows how to do it, making a giant version of the race that knows how to do it, and using the technology to invade Earth via Xen forces. They suddenly got mass amnesia?

Firstly, who said they built the Nihilanth? Modified extensively, yes, but built? Also, the Nihilanth, IMO, would have been primarily made to place Xen under Combine control.

Secondly, Mossman's exact quote was
"We're closing in on a reliable local teleport technology, something the Combine still hasn't mastered. Eli thinks their portals are string based, similar to our Colavial(sp)-model, but they fail to factor in the Dark Energy equations. They can tunnel through from their universe, but once their here they're dependant on local transportation. If they knew what we were doing with entanglement...

Dr. Kliener compressed the Xen relay FAR beyond anything he imagined at Black Mesa. We've figured out how to use Xen as an unexpressed(?) access, effectively a dimensional slingshot. So we can sling around the borderworld and come back in local space without having to pass through."

So when you ask why the Combine don't have "the technology," what technology are you talking about? The ability to teleport from point a to point b without stopping by the borderworld? The Nihilanth and the other Xen sentients never demonstrated that ability; they only teleported things from the Borderworld to Earth or from one spot in the Borderworld to another. There's nothing demonstrating that they knew about the slingshot method.

However, even if the Nihilanth had this ability and we were just never privvy to it, there's nothing stating the Combine weren't attempting to master it; indeed, from Mossman's speech it sounds like they were actively persuing it, they were just a few concepts and equations short, which even if the Nihilanth had the ability, it doesn't mean they would automatically figure out every scientific concept behind it.

[r2000]

Im in a rush and can't be bothered to quote all that.

The one major thing that convinces me is. The Combine, supposedly built Nihilanth, a huge being designed to teleport things around. Yet in HL2, Mossman states that the Combine don't know how to use Xen to teleport. Infact, Combine teleportation is completely different to Xen based teleportation.

After enslaving the race that knows how to do it, making a giant version of the race that knows how to do it, and using the technology to invade Earth via Xen forces. They suddenly got mass amnesia?
true. I think we caused a resonance cascade and got Xen pissed off. Nihilanth was just a dictator. He sent his guys to Earth.
You see Xen is a road between 2 houses.
One is Earth, one is the Combine.
Apparently, we got the combines attention, and most likely with the help of Breen, got the info to teleport into Earth. Earth-dwellers, drove into cities to escape Xenogens, (headcrabs mainly), were easy pray as Combine armies teleported in, and attacked.

Side note-Our resonance cascade may alone have triggered a Combine Invasion, functioning as a sort of becaon. They just waited to see who would win the Earth-Xen Conflict.

[Dalamari]

7-hour war:
This would possibly be the most unfun thing ever. Wave after wave of synth pounding you. It lasted 7 f**king hours, the humans were anihilated, there have been about 3 wars that lasted shorter amounts of time than that. Plus there would be no deversity, only synths and some xen aliens that got caught in the portal storms. Plus, you know how it ends, imagine pounding synth after synth for 7 hours then suddenly Breen shows up on the radio, "we surrender", rather f**king antclimatic.



This I don't agree with, if the 7-hour war was fought it couldn't be played out just like any other part of HL2, if you have to have a lot of scripted sequences like getting knocked down by a grenade and a guy picking you up and carrying you into a bunker where you hear Breen surrendering and maybe a combine knocks the door down and shoots everyone up, then you come back to City 17 out of a dream of whatever.

[pomegranate]

Actually, my idea for a 7-hour war involves escorting someone of importance - Vance (plus infant Alyx) or Kleiner, perhaps - to safety from somewhere under attack - I'm thinking of a ragtag convoy rolling out of a devestated city and being hassled by Combine gunships. Not for the whole game, just the ending section... perhaps you wind up at a bunker, a la Terminator 3...

[Cons Himself]

i think it would be good except for one thing: in the end, we lose.

[pomegranate]

Well, we won't know that until the series ends...
Depends what you mean by 'lose' - if the aim of the expansion was to survive the war and get yourself and others to safety in order for the eventual resistance to succeed, then ultimately we don't lose... that is if the Combine are defeated in HL3 or whatever comes later...

[Bob_Marley]

I think that both a shepard expansion and one focusing on the 7 hour war would be good, but they need to be seperate. for one if the Gman or his empolyers thought that the intervention of one of their subjects could have changed the course of events during the war why didnit they send Freeman, who is clearly the more favored one, and therefore in their eyes the most powerful, to assist the humans in their inital war with the combine?

the 7 hour war expansion would need to be from the point of view of a new charater with the objective being something like protecting a VIP on their way to a secure facility.

A new Shepard expansion would need to have a reason for the G man to have used him instead to Freeman. Thus it would either have to take place after Freeman's death or while Freeman was doing something else, eg leading the resistance in city 17. this could involve Shepard takling an objective that needed to be accomplished to increase Freeman's chance of sucsess. Eg disrupting Combine comunications and troop movements, this would work well with Shepard's backgrond of being in the USMC special forces.

just my thoughts on the matter, so if ya dont like 'em blame it on the ganja

[Marx! II]

Suppose Shephard is dropped off a little while prior to the war, and told to prove himself.
He wakes up in an outdoor environment, somewhere, and fights towards a major city, battling aliens along the way in various creative levels and sequences that Valve knows how to do.
He finally reaches the city, not during the war, but just after. Fight off some combine, take in all the post-war eye candy and tanks burning on the streets, hear Breen say uncle and G-man say better luck next time, here's your trans-dimensional osprey.

[Deathwish-uk-]

A 7 hour war expansion could be possible, highly scripted moments, big battles, having to hold strongholds and go harass the enemy. I think it would have to be more realistic however, but you could be a grunt in a platoon. It would have to have the correct weaponry however, e.g M16s, MP5s, M249s, etc, and I mean you wouldn't have to lose every battle, not much is explained about the 7 hour war in HL2, meaning a lot can be filled in by the imagination. For example, maybe the humans were winning the first 6 hours, until the combine really begun arriving en masse with armoured support. And after all it may have been a 7 hour war, but that doesent mean it was over fully, just the 'supposed' surrender, I'm sure there would have been a lot of troops who thought "F*ck Breen" and kept fighting.

[ríomhaire]

Why would the g-man drop him of to fight in the 7-hour war?
"all the efort in the world would have gone to waste"

[$kelet0r]

The gman cant tell the future he throws his agents into situations that they may have a profound effect on
anyway who's to say that adrian wouldn't win a major battle in a war that was lost elsewhere - capturing a combine advisor, wiping out the first hq (maybe it was in the US first etc), the possibilities are endless

[Faulk_Wulf]

7 Hour War - This could be fun. I could see you being Barney for it. Barney is sitting down, having a beer, and then BOOM-- Combine. I guess I could also see Adrian Shepard dropped in it. Here's the logic: G-Man wouldn't want to waste Gordon in a war that Earth is going to loose, but Adrian might be able to keep a small human resistance/group alive and away from the combine long enough to plant the seeds of uprival. (Barney makes more sense though...)

Adrian, In General: For the most part- my oppinion is in my sig. Good guy. My favorite expansion. But... G-Man really did not like Adrian. (Which is why I want to know why G-Man didn't just kill, unless he's above that stuff.) So I would doubt G-Man would pull him out of stasis.

My ONLY thought is that he could do it durring the slow teleport. Because G-Man couldn't get to Gordon. (right... somehow I doubt that, I think Valve just needed a way to pass the time it would take to set up the resistance...) But let's say that for some reason G-Man couldn't get to Gordon. He knows Adrian, he knows that Adrian can prove himself. Maybe a promise of releasing Adrian for motivation. Once again-- Barney just fits the role better.

That's my 2c. Slash and trash as you will.

[Marx! II]

I think G-man did like Adrian, and that's why he wasn't nuked with the rest of the base.
I say he'd be better for some after-Aftermath part, and I still think baiting Race-X into a combine area would be wicked awesome, especially if you could work in some Xen creatures into a giant free-for-all.

[T.H.C.138]

You can make anything fit with the storyline if you try hard enough.

why yes we can,can't we? it works both(all?) ways though..sooo

the debate rages on until VALVe confirm things..if they ever do

:cheers:

[Northwood83]

I'm just wondering what on earth that's supposed to prove... If I use a collar on my dog, am I part of the Combine?
Im sorry but you are reaching way to far here. You are using stupid alalogies against his quite good logic. I dont know why you persist in acting as if none of this stuff makes sense because as this guy has said many times it makes perfect sense given the information we have been given in HL2 and 1. To go against that is to act like the events (vorts speech in HL2 etc) never happened. Though thats probably what you want to do. Cant you just go live in your own fantasy land where Op For and anything related to Gearbox wasnt made instead of trying to bring down theories because you dislike a company?

Whats with all this anti sheapard stuff anyway? I thought OPFor rocked, and hell who doesnt like playing as a kickass military solider? Who wouldnt want to see a character make a return from a game in the series? I just dont get the logic behind it..Although its starting to become apparent that the same people that dont want to see him return also ignore the clear signs Valve is giving us in reguards to the story.

[Laivasse]

Im sorry but you are reaching way to far here. You are using stupid alalogies against his quite good logic. I dont know why you persist in acting as if none of this stuff makes sense because as this guy has said many times it makes perfect sense given the information we have been given in HL2 and 1. To go against that is to act like the events (vorts speech in HL2 etc) never happened. Though thats probably what you want to do. Cant you just go live in your own fantasy land where Op For and anything related to Gearbox wasnt made instead of trying to bring down theories because you dislike a company?

Whats with all this anti sheapard stuff anyway? I thought OPFor rocked, and hell who doesnt like playing as a kickass military solider? Who wouldnt want to see a character make a return from a game in the series? I just dont get the logic behind it..Although its starting to become apparent that the same people that dont want to see him return also ignore the clear signs Valve is giving us in reguards to the story.

Bizarre post. Seems like you're the one with the grudge. Collars on vorts in HL2 DO NOT PROVE ANYTHING. They don't even suggest anything. I seriously don't understand what you think they imply. Same with when the vorts say "let this end in victory or our extinction etc etc"...in what way does that back up anything? If you're going to debate, do it with more material than just saying "Come on...get real".

As has been demonstrated by about 50 pages of debate in this forum, the Combine-not-on-Xen argument is actually backed up by pretty strong evidence.

[eber]

Adrian Shepard Forever !!!!!!!

[UndeadScottsman]

Bizarre post. Seems like you're the one with the grudge. Collars on vorts in HL2 DO NOT PROVE ANYTHING. They don't even suggest anything. I seriously don't understand what you think they imply. Same with when the vorts say "let this end in victory or our extinction etc etc"...in what way does that back up anything? If you're going to debate, do it with more material than just saying "Come on...get real".

As has been demonstrated by about 50 pages of debate in this forum, the Combine-not-on-Xen argument is actually backed up by pretty strong evidence.

Then how come you didn't mention any of this strong evidence in the argument we had in this thread?

[Laivasse]

If you think it's my life mission to deal with your obtuseness, you're mistaken. Read the threads that already exist, or don't; pretend you haven't seen the evidence, or don't. What is the point of having me endlessly repeat the same thing? The theory is supported, your attitude towards it is your own business.

[pomegranate]

I have also not seen any evidence that actively refutes the Combine being in control of Xen. Can you just give a summary?

[Laivasse]

I have also not seen any evidence that actively refutes the Combine being in control of Xen. Can you just give a summary?

I don't mean to brush this off, but if I try to do this it will end up taking me an hour, then the whole argument will start all over again as people start to nitpick over individual points they don't like.

But allthe points can be found here (http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?t=72731) (among other threads) - not necessarily on the first page, but spread throughout the entire thing. There's a lot to get through, but if you really want to give your mind a workout in terms of HL2 speculation then practically every theory on the game is covered from all possible angles in that thread.

[UndeadScottsman]

If you think it's my life mission to deal with your obtuseness, you're mistaken. Read the threads that already exist, or don't; pretend you haven't seen the evidence, or don't. What is the point of having me endlessly repeat the same thing? The theory is supported, your attitude towards it is your own business.

How am I being obtuse? I was asking why you didn't bring up any "strong evidence" during your argument. Everything you mentioned I presented arguments against and you never brought them up again, so I figured you gave up on argueing those points, ergo the evidence your brought up can't have been the "strong" stuff you mentioned.

[Laivasse]

How am I being obtuse? I was asking why you didn't bring up any "strong evidence" during your argument. Everything you mentioned I presented arguments against and you never brought them up again, so I figured you gave up on argueing those points, ergo the evidence your brought up can't have been the "strong" stuff you mentioned.

Is it beyond the bounds of possibility that a man can get tired of retyping the same things over and over again? This has been debated for a very long time on here - tbh I can't remember what arguments you or I used, but if I discarded anything it's because it didn't bring anything particularly new or useful to the debate. I'm more likely to try and address strong, fresh counter-arguments, not less. I've arrived at the conclusions I have because the evidence (or lack thereof) has pointed me this way, not by putting my hands over my ears and shouting loudly as some people seem to think.

So tell yourself that everyone has given up in the face of all your great points if you want, but consider for a moment the possibility that everyone's just bored of the issue because everything that can be said has been said. Of course it breaks my heart that you don't think my arguments are very strong, but what a coincidence. Go to the above mentioned link, and see if what you said hasn't been covered there, many times.

[UndeadScottsman]

Is it beyond the bounds of possibility that a man can get tired of retyping the same things over and over again? This has been debated for a very long time on here - tbh I can't remember what arguments you or I used, but if I discarded anything it's because it didn't bring anything particularly new or useful to the debate. I'm more likely to try and address strong, fresh counter-arguments, not less. I've arrived at the conclusions I have because the evidence (or lack thereof) has pointed me this way, not by putting my hands over my ears and shouting loudly as some people seem to think.
So, even when I corrected a few of your statements, that wasn't "fresh counter-argument?"

So tell yourself that everyone has given up in the face of all your great points if you want, but consider for a moment the possibility that everyone's just bored of the issue because everything that can be said has been said. Of course it breaks my heart that you don't think my arguments are very strong, but what a coincidence. Go to the above mentioned link, and see if what you said hasn't been covered there, many times.
See you there, I guess.

[Laivasse]

So, even when I corrected a few of your statements, that wasn't "fresh counter-argument?"

Help yourself to all the accolades you want, but you corrected nothing but my statement about loops on collars (which I am yet to check out) - and I've belaboured the point that the collar thing means nothing. Be sure you're not confusing me for anybody else.

[eber]

go to the speculation forum and go the the thread called "combine / xen realationships" or whatever its name is. it is all explained there with strong evidence out of the games.

[UndeadScottsman]

Help yourself to all the accolades you want, but you corrected nothing but my statement about loops on collars (which I am yet to check out) - and I've belaboured the point that the collar thing means nothing. Be sure you're not confusing me for anybody else.

The collar thing (Which, upon reading the Xen/Combine thread, you even go as far to use the reasoning of "Nihilanth doesn't seem to be the type to chain people up, so the HL2 collars can't be his." as strong evidence), and the fact that the Xen-relay conundrum you continually mention DOESN'T EXIST. The Xen race never once demonstrated the ability to use point-to-point teleportation on Earth, so there's no reason the Combine should use it or even KNOW of it, even if they had control of Xen.

[Laivasse]

The collar thing (Which, upon reading the Xen/Combine thread, you even go as far to use the reasoning of "Nihilanth doesn't seem to be the type to chain people up, so the HL2 collars can't be his." as strong evidence), and the fact that the Xen-relay conundrum you continually mention DOESN'T EXIST. The Xen race never once demonstrated the ability to use point-to-point teleportation on Earth, so there's no reason the Combine should use it or even KNOW of it, even if they had control of Xen.

Pretty selective aren't you? From that same post of mine you bowdlerised:

This signifies no significant link for or against the Combine/Xen argument, since the Combine could have simply discovered a few vorts on Earth and cooked up something to keep them docile. It certainly doesn't mean that the Combine have been their masters all along. Even if it is the same type of collar, it means very little.

I've based nothing on it, so don't pretend otherwise.

Also, regarding the Xen teleportation thing, you seem to have missed the point: regardless of whether Xen aliens can teleport locally on Earth or not (and there's nothing to say they can't), Humans can use Xen to do precisely that. Whether it's by a natural property of the Xen universe, or something to do with the crystals from Xen, we don't know. For the Combine not to be able to do it despite controlling Xen for as long as they must have would make them thick in the head somehow - they even have Breen, head of the facility that pioneered the teleportation, on their payroll now. Why can they still not accomplish point to point teleporting, even with his help? It indicates complete ignorance of the whole Xen factor. Nothing we see in HL2 leads us to think that the Combine are thick; on the contrary they're portrayed as being way more advanced than us. For us to have randomly surpassed them in one field of research in which technically they should be more experienced, is highly unlikely.

For all the microscopic fragments of the Independent-Xen theory you focus on and try to chip away at, never has a cohesive argument been put forward for Combine-on-Xen, other than "get real", "stop being awkward", or "of COURSE it's the same bad guy, it's the sequel!" If that's the way you WANT to view the story then fine, but it doesn't change the fact that it's supported by almost nothing. To date: 2 vague quotes, 1 metal arse.

[Faulk_Wulf]

Maybe I missed something, but Vort with the colar, doing the sweeping at the begging-- he IS a slave. (I don't remember seeing any other Vort with a colar.) Granted we're dealing with a new graphics engine, but that colar does not resemble the Vorts original colars. Besides-- Gordan freed Xen. Isn't it concievable that, after that, the Combine came to the free Xen and enslaved the Vort?

That's just me, and I haven't read hardly any of the speculation posts or anything. If I'm way off just say "You're completely wrong." and leave it at that. Just stating an observation.

--

It dawned on me after my first post on this thread: In regards to Shepard, it's kind of futile to argue that the plot says Shepard should or should not be in a HL2-Expansion. If Valve wants him in, or Barney, or Otis, or any of the Xen life from the original Half-Life/Op4 then they'll be there.

I just wish Half-Life 2 would have had a more complete story, like Half-Life 1. I get that Half-Life 3 is a garentee but HL2 really lacked a substantial depth. We should have at least got a few answer to series long questions (G-Man) or hints or at the very least- an actual explanation on the Combine. But that's me, and everyone can and will think what they want in regards to that.

[UndeadScottsman]

Pretty selective aren't you? From that same post of mine you bowdlerised:Who's selective? I was demonstrating how your were in error, which you were.

I've based nothing on it, so don't pretend otherwise. Actually you did base something on it (Using the the loops on the HL2 model as reason it can't be the same from HL1). Regardless of your next statement, you WERE in error on the first, hence why I corrected you. Apparently you didn't find that to be "fresh" when I corrected you in this thread though. Lord knows why you repeated it if you had already been shown how it was in error.

Also, regarding the Xen teleportation thing, you seem to have missed the point: regardless of whether Xen aliens can teleport locally on Earth or not (and there's nothing to say they can't), Humans can use Xen to do precisely that. Whether it's by a natural property of the Xen universe, or something to do with the crystals from Xen, we don't know. For the Combine not to be able to do it despite controlling Xen for as long as they must have would make them thick in the head somehow Actually, yes, I would assume the Combine would be thick in the head, as you put it. They seem to get all their advancements from taking them from other races; not by pioneering them on their own. On top of that, I can easily see the quirky humans having the ability to jury-rig a form of teleportation that the Combine just plainly doesn't have the imagination to think of... Especially if they, for whatever reason, choose to use a different kind of teleportation (string based) that may not be compatible with the relay idea. That kind of thing happens all the time in Scifi; humans ingeniuity trumps the super-advanced aliens. Besides, controlling Xen doesn't even begin to mean you instantly understand everything about it, nor does it mean you'll ever understand everything about it.

- they even have Breen, head of the facility that pioneered the teleportation, on their payroll now. Why can they still not accomplish point to point teleporting, even with his help?
Same reason they couldn't devise a Xen-relay after Breen joined them had there'd been no Xen-Combine connection. Either Breen was keeping it for himself for whatever reason (Leverage, perhaps), or more than likley, as mentioned in previous episodes of the Half-Life saga; he was far more a buerocrat than a scientist. He simply never bothered to learn much about the science behind it and therefore couldn't aid the Combine in that endeaver beyond saying it involved Xen. (And, obviously, the Combine would have had to know about Xen after they invaded Earth; between Breen, the various new critters on Earth, and even the Portal storms, they would have had to have discovered Xen by that point. Obviously Breen wasn't able to help them develope the relay tech after that point.)

It indicates complete ignorance of the whole Xen factor. Nothing we see in HL2 leads us to think that the Combine are thick; on the contrary they're portrayed as being way more advanced than us. For us to have randomly surpassed them in one field of research in which technically they should be more experienced, is highly unlikely.
No, it indicates ignorance of the ability to use Xen as a relay, of which there is NO reason simply controlling Xen would automatically give them that idea. Just because you have something, doesn't mean you mean you somehow find out all the uses for it right away; Look at the laser. For awhile it was called the invention without a purpose. It took awhile before humans started finding out what they could do with it. Likewise, controlling Xen doesn't mean you'd automatically figure out how to use it as a relay, or even think of using it as a relay. It just means you control Xen.

For all the microscopic fragments of the Independent-Xen theory you focus on and try to chip away at
Actually, pretty much all of the arguments are easily explainable, as I and others have constantly done. There has yet to be a single thing that strikes a blow to the Xen-Combine theory and there are still things that support it.

, never has a cohesive argument been put forward for Combine-on-Xen, other than "get real", "stop being awkward", or "of COURSE it's the same bad guy, it's the sequel!" If that's the way you WANT to view the story then fine, but it doesn't change the fact that it's supported by almost nothing. To date: 2 vague quotes, 1 metal arse.

There exists on the dimensional Borderworld a race of enslaved beings who are linked to a creature that has had extensive cybernetic and surgical alteration. Meanwhile, there exists an empire that travels to other dimensions, enslaving what they find useful, and who's hobbies include cybernetics and surgery.

There are TWO possible scenerio's here. A. Combine and Xen are related or B. It's just bunch of coincidences. I'd like to give Valve a bit more credit than to repeat similar scenerio's like this for absolutly no reason.

Ultimatly, the Xen-Combine argument has the 2 vague quotes, 1 metal ass (Which is far more important than you give it credit) and a logical assumption. That's the reason why I think it's teh correct one, as it has more going for it than the other argument has, as far as I've seen.

Oh, and can you quit using the "of COURSE it's the same bad guy, it's the sequel!" quote. It's utterly irrelevent here.

[Laivasse]

Who's selective? I was demonstrating how your were in error, which you were.

No, you said I was using it as strong evidence, which I clearly wasn't, and you omitted the rest of my message to obscure that fact. Enough pedantry.

There exists on the dimensional Borderworld a race of enslaved beings who are linked to a creature that has had extensive cybernetic and surgical alteration. Meanwhile, there exists an empire that travels to other dimensions, enslaving what they find useful, and who's hobbies include cybernetics and surgery.

Extensive formatting and semantic slight of hand doesn't make the link any stronger. For a start, the creatures on Xen are not simply "a race of enslaved beings", and neither are the humans on Earth. If you figure in what Breen says in Nova Prospekt, humans are in fact due for either total annihilation or total assimilation into the Combine. We may be currently being treated as slaves, but that is not the Combine's long term plan for us - so the M.O, as we see it in HL2 is NOT enslavement, it is assimilation/extermination. The Combine don't seem to conquer only for territory, although you have to speculate that that is what they do if you're trying to fit in a Combine-on-Xen argument.

Similarly, regarding slavery on Xen - noone's sure quite how Xen worked yet. Exactly who controlled who or whether the slavery stopped with the vorts or not is still unresolved, so the idea that Xen constitutes a clear template which you can point to and say "Oh, look! That's what the Combine did in HL2!" is false. Not only false, but wilfully ignorant of the obvious difference in enemy and environment aesthetic, and the complete lack of any *solid* supporting signs, eg. a garg fighting for the Combine in HL2.

Then there's the modification to the Nihilanth - there are similarities to what the Combine do, but then modification is modification, and there are also obvious differences. For a start, the Nihilanth still has all it's faculties and self-awareness. "We are slaves" - is anything modified by the Combine in HL2 capable of saying that, do you think? The Nihilanth isn't de-limbed like the stalkers, hasn't had guns grafted on or hasn't been mechanised like the synth, hasn't got a logo (present on everything Combine) and isn't wearing a gas-mask. Also, why modify Nihilanth then leave him to his own devices, fully self-aware as he is, when everything they have modified in HL2, they take to be used in other worlds? Where have they used anything from Xen?

Severing the link between Xen and the Combine does not turn everything into fishy coincidences, because the similarities between the Combine MO and Xen are no way near as similar as you make out. Again, I'll say what's been said many times - the fact that they appear in the same game franchise is not enough to link them story-wise, without clear evidence linking them in HL2. Saying otherwise involves extra speculation, which people are free to make, but let's not act as if Combine-not-on-Xen is a weak, awkward theory, thanks.

(btw, I didn't address your other points because they are unsupported speculation, but feel free to take it as having "corrected" me)

[UndeadScottsman]

No, you said I was using it as strong evidence, which I clearly wasn't, and you omitted the rest of my message to obscure that fact. Enough pedantry.It seemed to me that you were being contradictory by laying an argument down and then saying "But I don't think this is an arguable subject," which basically means if someone DID find it an arguable subject, you'd have an argument ready to debunk them. I apologize if I mistook that.

Extensive formatting and semantic slight of hand doesn't make the link any stronger. For a start, the creatures on Xen are not simply "a race of enslaved beings", and neither are the humans on Earth. If you figure in what Breen says in Nova Prospekt, humans are in fact due for either total annihilation or total assimilation into the Combine. We may be currently being treated as slaves, but that is not the Combine's long term plan for us - so the M.O, as we see it in HL2 is NOT enslavement, it is assimilation/extermination. The Combine don't seem to conquer only for territory, although you have to speculate that that is what they do if you're trying to fit in a Combine-on-Xen argument.First of all Xen is a Borderworld, and it's territory was worth enough that the Gman made it a point to mention that it was in "our" control. From Laidlaw's description, Xen is quite a hot, if inhospitible, piece of territory. You can't even get to another spot on Earth through teleportation without stopping by the Borderworld. Now, using the Vorts to control Xen is not only efficient; but tactically advantagous since they ARE already suited to survival in the unsual conditions of Xen. (Another quote from Laidlaw)

Secondly, the only real difference (As far as can be seen) between the enslavement of the vortigaunts and the enslavement of the humans is that humankind had to be put under the knife one-by-one, not being of a hivemind. Whereas the vortigaunts all share a hivemind and therefore all that is needed is to do is to control that, which would logically be done through controlling the Nihilanth. Again, it's a hell of a lot easier, quicker and cheaper to do that than to set up a whole program of herding Vorts into modifcation facilities. Anywho, in both cases they are forced to serve the Combine's will, which is not their own, and they have no choice in the matter. I'd call that slavery.

Similarly, regarding slavery on Xen - noone's sure quite how Xen worked yet. Exactly who controlled who or whether the slavery stopped with the vorts or not is still unresolved, so the idea that Xen constitutes a clear template which you can point to and say "Oh, look! That's what the Combine did in HL2!" is false.Your putting words into my mouth, I specificly said that it's either a big co-incidence that Xen was enslaved (Which they were; the Nihilanth said he was enslaved and the Vortigaunts are referred to as slaves,) and that there's an empire of slavers out there, or it was intentional. Earth and Xen are not the same, and therefore different tactics to enslave the different populations can and probably should be used. See the prior paragraph.

Not only false, but wilfully ignorant of the obvious difference in enemy and environment aesthetic, and the complete lack of any *solid* supporting signs, eg. a garg fighting for the Combine in HL2.That's assuming that just because the combine had control of Xen, that it would be covered in Combine tech, or even have any influence of Combine tech beyond what they use to control the Hivemind.

In order to come to that conclusion, you have to assume that
A. The Combine needed that stuff there to take over Xen in the first place,
B. That the Combine would just leave it laying around Xen after it was taken over, when it could be put to use elsewhere,
C. That the Combine tech would be better suited to be on Xen than the Vort's own methods and
D. That there was enough stuff on Xen in the first place to leave a detectable imprint when Freeman, Shephard and Calhoun visited.
Plus, it's not like the Combine have shown any evidence of going mad-crazy and converting everything they come across, right down to every single plant and critter; Eath is reletivly untouched in that regard; only the human population really got the Combine's attention as far as we can tell.

The only piece technology the Combine would need on Xen is the cybernetics implanted in the Nihilanth. If they control him, they control the Xen race, and thusly have the best possible army for keeping Xen under their control, which means they're free to move on to other words.

As for the Garg situation, barring the fact that the Combine probably lost direct control of anything from Xen once the Nihilanth died, that situation requires the assumption that a Gargantua is a superior tool to, say, a Strider or a Motar Synth.

Then there's the modification to the Nihilanth - there are similarities to what the Combine do, but then modification is modification, and there are also obvious differences. For a start, the Nihilanth still has all it's faculties and self-awareness. "We are slaves" - is anything modified by the Combine in HL2 capable of saying that, do you think?Probably, so long as it isn't lombotomized like the Stalkers (Which the Overwatch most likely would not have been, as lobotomized warriors seldom make good warriors). Destroying it's higher brain functions would probably be a rather stupid thing to do, in fact, if you're using the creature to control a hivemind. Additionally, can you really say that any of the Overwatch can't say "We are slaves?"

The Nihilanth isn't de-limbed like the stalkers, hasn't had guns grafted on or hasn't been mechanised like the synth, hasn't got a logo (present on everything Combine) and isn't wearing a gas-mask.
What need is there to delimb him, graft guns or a gasmask on him or even stick a logo on him (The logo's is probably for human intimidation anyway, rather than anything the Combine give a rip about. Notice how the Stalkers don't have logo's)? He's not going to be used as a fighter or a worker in a Combine factory; he's keeping the Vortigaunt population under Combine control.

Also, why modify Nihilanth then leave him to his own devices, fully self-aware as he is, when everything they have modified in HL2, they take to be used in other worlds? Where have they used anything from Xen?As I said before, Xen is important. Using the Nihilanth to keep the Xen under Combine juridiction is useful. It frees the Combine up to invade other worlds and keeps Xen under their control.

Severing the link between Xen and the Combine does not turn everything into fishy coincidences, because the similarities between the Combine MO and Xen are no way near as similar as you make out. Again, I'll say what's been said many times - the fact that they appear in the same game franchise is not enough to link them story-wise, without clear evidence linking them in HL2. Saying otherwise involves extra speculation, which people are free to make, but let's not act as if Combine-not-on-Xen is a weak, awkward theory, thanks.Xen is a BORDERWORLD that Mark Laidlaw specificly said that you have to go through to get to other places. The population is ENSLAVED (Again, direct quote from the Nihilanth and the names of the Alien "Slaves"), and the big powerful entity in the Hivemind that is enslaved has cybernetic implants. While at the same time there's the Combine, who travel to other dimensions, assimilating and enslaving what they find useful, utilizing cybernetics. Really, look at the facts (FACTS) on this one. Are you telling me that it's a coincidence? Let also not act like Valve would be stupid enough to set up similar scenerio's twice.

(btw, I didn't address your other points because they are unsupported speculation, but feel free to take it as having "corrected" me)
Everything we're doing is either barely supported or completely unsupported. :P Anywho, I felt I made some of the best points there, including a quite blatent reason why your Breen comment is a non-issue and how just because Xen is under someone's control, it doesn't mean the relay tech is going to be immediatly, if ever, available to them. That isn't unsupported speculation; that's common sense. Like I said, just because they have control of something doesn't mean they're going to automatically know everything about it.

[jimmyjam]

For a start, the Nihilanth still has all it's faculties and self-awareness. "We are slaves" - is anything modified by the Combine in HL2 capable of saying that, do you think? The Nihilanth isn't de-limbed like the stalkers, hasn't had guns grafted on or hasn't been mechanised like the synth, hasn't got a logo (present on everything Combine) and isn't wearing a gas-mask. Also, why modify Nihilanth then leave him to his own devices, fully self-aware as he is, when everything they have modified in HL2, they take to be used in other worlds? Where have they used anything from Xen?

xen is to earth as nihilanth is to breen
Dr. Breen isn't delimbed, doesn't have guns, hasn't been mechanised, has no logo, isn't wearing a gas mask, and has his faculties and self-awareness.

[Ravioli]

Great post Undeadscottman, i couldnt have said it better myself. I think that the Garguanta are one of the orginal creature from the combine homeworld. They invade planets with their own armys, then slave the population, then combine themself, and leaver it to the new combination. I think that Striders are the same, also for the Synth. See it like they are being reported to serve in the army on Earth for 5 years, then head back to the combine homeworld (not going to happen but just explaining the situation)

Sence Breen isnt enslaved, i think he has a plan. As he says, he wants to promote the HUMAN combine to the Union, to let the human combines do the invasion and lead. If he get his wish done, he will turn the switch AGAINST the orginal Combines, and boom, hes the boss of the Union, he will free earth. THAT is his purpose, i think that is what hes doing "you need me" he says at the end of half-life2, and Gordon Freeman blew his plan, basecly Gordon just ****ed up the human rase and planet earth, if my theory is correct. I mean, why would breen want to kill all the humans? And be the last human in the...in the everything?

[Laivasse]

xen is to earth as nihilanth is to breen
Dr. Breen isn't delimbed, doesn't have guns, hasn't been mechanised, has no logo, isn't wearing a gas mask, and has his faculties and self-awareness.

Breen isn't comparable to the Nihilanth. The Combine could control humanity without Breen, he's more of a PR exercise. He doesn't have any of those things because he hasn't been modified by the Combine at all - some people are trying to argue that the Nihilanth has been, despite the fact that there are some big differences between whatever happened to the Nihilanth and what the Combine do in HL2.

That's assuming that just because the combine had control of Xen, that it would be covered in Combine tech, or even have any influence of Combine tech beyond what they use to control the Hivemind.

In order to come to that conclusion, you have to assume that
A. The Combine needed that stuff there to take over Xen in the first place, B. That the Combine would just leave it laying around Xen after it was taken over, when it could be put to use elsewhere,
C. That the Combine tech would be better suited to be on Xen than the Vort's own methods and
D. That there was enough stuff on Xen in the first place to leave a detectable imprint when Freeman, Shephard and Calhoun visited.

Plus, it's not like the Combine have shown any evidence of going mad-crazy and converting everything they come across, right down to every single plant and critter; Eath is reletivly untouched in that regard; only the human population really got the Combine's attention as far as we can tell. The only piece technology the Combine would need on Xen is the cybernetics implanted in the Nihilanth. If they control him, they control the Xen race, and thusly have the best possible army for keeping Xen under their control, which means they're free to move on to other words.

As for the Garg situation, barring the fact that the Combine probably lost direct control of anything from Xen once the Nihilanth died, that situation requires the assumption that a Gargantua is a superior tool to, say, a Strider or a Motar Synth.

That whole section is basically saying "why assume that the Combine would operate this way...?" when we have no reason to assume that they would operate any other way due to what we're shown in HL2. That's what is meant by the extra speculation required on the Combine-on-Xen side of the argument. Also, what's the more natural assumption to make when you see that the Combine don't control any Xen forces in HL2 - they don't have any, or they have some, but aren't using them? Why would the Combine create a system on Xen so frail that they lost all control with the death of one lifeform? Even if they lost control of Earth in future they would still be able to use the transhumans they had assimilated. all things you have to speculate overtime for on that theory.


You also keep saying that the Combine want Xen because it's "important" and that it's the dimensional borderworld, but you don't say why it would be important or why the Combine would be bothered controlling this world when their own teleportation doesn't make use of it at all. Again, speculate at will. At least with Earth there are 2 very obvious potential goals, with other goals possible if you speculate - 1) incorporation of mankind into their interplanetary invasion force, 2) nabbing that point to point technology. And no, they wouldn't have needed to be in control of Xen to know that that tech existed. Again, saying that Xenians were "enslaved" and that the Combine are a "race of slavers" is to oversimplify. "Slaves" under the Combine fight on their front line, toil in their citadel, or die.

They also have their biogenetics screwed around and physically cease to be what they once were. And if Valve had wanted the Overwatch to seem as if they were acting against their will, I'm sure they would have made it appear that way. Lobotomised people make great troops if you've just cut away the instinct to rebel and destroyed their fear.

Anywho, I felt I made some of the best points there, including a quite blatent reason why your Breen comment is a non-issue and how just because Xen is under someone's control, it doesn't mean the relay tech is going to be immediatly, if ever, available to them.

Breen on their side is not a non-issue with the teleportation tech. What scenario is more or less likely:

1) Combine never controlled Xen
2) They learn of local teleportation tech (before arrival on Earth or afterwards through Breen), without fine details
3) Combine still can't accomplish it because they don't know where Xen is/what it is/don't have any Xen materials

OR

1) Combine controlled Xen however long without ever noticing the potential for Xen teleportation (remember you're the one saying they were there because they knew it was an important borderworld)
2) They learn of local teleport tech, maybe as early as HL1, without fine details
3) Even with Breen on their side, filling in a few gaps, thicky Combine still don't get it because they're just thick "ourh tleerprotershun is dur BUUUUUUHST!!"


Let's go to the main points because frankly I'm getting doubly bored with the issue. To deal with your points I'm being forced to retype points I've made many times in the past, and I'm thinking that it isn't the greatest use of my time. The main points remain unchanged - the heart of the evidence for the non-Combine-on-Xen side is in fact a wealth of *missing* evidence for the Combine-on-Xen side. To make up for that missing evidence you need to practically write a novel:
eg, no space on Xen for Combine buildings/ground too soft
Combine too stupid to figure out Xen teleportation
Combine don't have Xen forces in their armies because they don't feel like it
All Combine trademarks in HL2 are Earth specific and ONLY occur on Earth
...and so on. It doesn't end there by a long shot.

On the Combine-on-Xen side there are 2 quotes, one metal arse, and what you call a logical assumption, but what I call an oversimplification.

[pomegranate]

I like to think that the alien factory on Xen was made by the Combine. Or at least made by the Xenians at the Combine's behest. We really didn't see that much of Xen anyway.

If the Combine had control of Nihilanth, they wouldn't neccessarily have been in that much of a hurry to develop it for themselves, especially if they needed N to keep control of the Vorts. Like I said before, perhaps they were getting there before Gordon killed Nihilanth.

We can't know for certain what are and what aren't Combine trademarks - what about headcrabs and zombies? The Combine use headcrabs as weapons on Earth, how do we know they didn't introduce them to Xen as well (acknowledging Gonarch)?

If you're bored of the argument, please, stop arguing. Don't keep moaning.

[Laivasse]

I like to think that the alien factory on Xen was made by the Combine. Or at least made by the Xenians at the Combine's behest. We really didn't see that much of Xen anyway.

If the Combine had control of Nihilanth, they wouldn't neccessarily have been in that much of a hurry to develop it for themselves, especially if they needed N to keep control of the Vorts. Like I said before, perhaps they were getting there before Gordon killed Nihilanth.

We can't know for certain what are and what aren't Combine trademarks - what about headcrabs and zombies? The Combine use headcrabs as weapons on Earth, how do we know they didn't introduce them to Xen as well (acknowledging Gonarch)?

Valid ideas, but please realise the difference between reasons for believing something, and ways you can fit it in.

If you're bored of the argument, please, stop arguing.

Well, I did, but the response I got was "ah, you're not arguing! I must be right, then!" Barring people trying to claim that their theory is the One True God of HL2 theories, I'll gladly put this issue in the bin.

[Jandor]

If I was a mod I would have locked this thread and banned your sorry ass's. Because what the hell does the Combine on Xen/Independant Xen theory have to do with: "for you who want Adrian or 7-hour war. (Spoilers) " ?? Absolutely nothing. Theres a whole thread in Rumours and Speculation that you're neglecting to use.


Combine-on-Xen argument to date: 2 vague quotes, 1 metal arse.


Hahaha.

[pomegranate]

Valid ideas, but please realise the difference between reasons for believing something, and ways you can fit it in.

Absolutely. I read the first post (Pai Mei's) in the other thread you linked to, and I like that explanation almost as much as the Combine-on-Xen theory, so I am, as ever, just arguing for argument's sake... Well, I do prefer the C-o-X theory a bit more, just cos of the neatness, so I admit I'd prefer that the evidence would add up to support it... but I'm open minded...

[UndeadScottsman]

Breen isn't comparable to the Nihilanth. The Combine could control humanity without Breen, he's more of a PR exercise. He doesn't have any of those things because he hasn't been modified by the Combine at all - some people are trying to argue that the Nihilanth has been, despite the fact that there are some big differences between whatever happened to the Nihilanth and what the Combine do in HL2.
I actually agree with this; but simply because Breen ain't Mr. Hivemind. He just puts a happy face on the Combine and kept the population placid until Gordon starting stirring things up; and he’s ultimately replaceable. As far as what the Combine do, they use Cybernetics to take control of alien races; Thanks to Mr. Hivemind, they got the Vorts in one go whereas the human had to be taken one by one. Sounds to me to be similar aims achieved with different methods.

That whole section is basically saying "why assume that the Combine would operate this way...?" when we have no reason to assume that they would operate any other way due to what we're shown in HL2. When you ask "Where is the Combine influence on Xen" I immediately think "There's some on the Nihilanth; would they need any more influence?" That's the basic question you need to answer. We've seen nothing that says the Combine waste resources (they even go so far as to utilize the resources on the planets they control), nor have we seen anything to say the Combine even needed to expend said resources to take Xen in the first place; Once Xen is in their control, any invasion force becomes is unnecessary, so why would they leave stuff that isn't needed lying around, especially when it's better put to use elsewhere.

That's what is meant by the extra speculation required on the Combine-on-Xen side of the argument. Also, what's the more natural assumption to make when you see that the Combine don't control any Xen forces in HL2 - they don't have any, or they have some, but aren't using them?Again, without the Nihilanth, the Combine no longer have their direct hold over the Vorts or anything else in Xen like the used to have. Any forces pressed into their service would have had the opportunity to rebel finally (Especially if that’s the current buzz on the Hivemind). Though, we do see a few here and there (ie: the street sweeper) under highly supervised positions. Also, why don’t we see the Combine using Antlions or any Earth animals? I highly doubt they would assimilate things soley because it’s there. As we see with the Transhuman forces, the Combine are extremely picky.

Why would the Combine create a system on Xen so frail that they lost all control with the death of one lifeform?
Because they really didn't expect one man to fight past all of Xen's defensives and break into the Nihilanth's chamber and defeat him in single combat; especially not within a day or two of the Nihilanth attack some random planet. Seriously; you'd think that the big N could handle things on his own. Had there of been a giant war raging, I’m sure the Combine would have dropped what they were doing and make sure the war didn’t spill over into their homeworld or any other planet they had control of but that’s not what happened. It was a single entity that fought through Xen and destroyed the Nihilanth. (After all, why didn’t the Nihilanth have more forces (Which we SAW he had) guarding his ass? Probably for the same reason; it’s just one creature. Xen had already killed dozens of them in their own dimension and hundreds more on Earth)

Even if they lost control of Earth in future they would still be able to use the transhumans they had assimilated. all things you have to speculate overtime for on that theory.How do we know they didn't export Xen troops elsewhere? The thing is, the Combine ARE going to put the Xen forces where they'd be most useful. Being especially suited to Xen (Which is an extremely bizarre environment) makes them a good force to keeping Xen under Combine control. They could have been others who were transported to Earth or other dimensions, but they would have had the opportunity to rebel just like all the others.

Again, without the Nihilanth the Combine lose their big way of controlling the Vort population (They still have shackles, as seen on the street sweeper and the vort in prison but those probably can be removed now that the Nihilanth isn’t exerting his influence, so long as the Vort can get away from the local Combine presence) We've only seen the Combine on Earth, and on Earth we've only seen converted humans and mass-produced Synth; not a single Combine and not a single critter from any other race.

You also keep saying that the Combine want Xen because it's "important" and that it's the dimensional borderworld, but you don't say why it would be importantYes I did. I did several times. " Xen is a Borderworld--a place you have to go through to get to other places." As Laidlaw said. That makes it tactically advantageous. If every race stops by the Borderworld before being able to go elsewhere, that makes Xen a buffer zone for the Combine homeworld. Not only that, it allows the Combine to keep tabs on inte-rdimensional traffic.

or why the Combine would be bothered controlling this world when their own teleportation doesn't make use of it at all. Again, speculate at will.
It's speculation that their teleportation doesn't make use of Xen, actually. Mossman said "their universe" not "the combine homeworld," which honestly sounds like a generic point of origin rather than a specific local. Speculation based on common sense: It’s highly likely that none of the rebellion even have a clue where the Combine even come from, specifically.

At least with Earth there are 2 very obvious potential goals, with other goals possible if you speculate - 1) incorporation of mankind into their interplanetary invasion force, 2) nabbing that point to point technology. And no, they wouldn't have needed to be in control of Xen to know that that tech existed.
I never said they would need to be in control of Xen to get the tech (Obviously, Earth didn't need to be); I did say that being in control of Xen wouldn’t deliver that tech to them automatically. With Xen, there is at least one potential goal; control of the Borderworld; plus they got control over the natives to keep watch over the dimension along with whatever export worth they have. Xen neither looks extremely hospitable nor extremely well suited to what we’ve seen of the Combine.

Again, saying that Xenians were "enslaved" and that the Combine are a "race of slavers" is to oversimplify. "Slaves" under the Combine fight on their front line, toil in their citadel, or die. Actually, it’s your assumption that’s what the Combine do with their slaves. As far as any of us know, slaves do what they're told; and if they're told to keep Xen under check because that’s what the Combine feels they’re most useful at, then that’s what they’ll do. (Keep in mind they were also building an army and mining some sort of resources, so it probably wasn’t the only thing they were doing for the Combine)

Also, how much detail do I need to go into before it's no longer an oversimplification even though I showed the direct correlation between what the Combine do a likely scenario derived from facts about the Xen race? What magical piece of detail makes the correlation disappear?

The Combine use Cybernetics and Surgical alterations to take control of worlds and their populations, right? You'd agree with that because that's as much as we've seen in Half-Life. They did it on Earth one-by-one until almost the entire population was either part of the Transhuman forces or lobotomized into a Stalker. All of that we pretty much KNOW.

We ALSO know that the Nihilanth considered himself to be enslaved and that the Vorts are referred to as Alien Slaves.
We ALSO know that the Nihilanth and the Vorts are part of a hive mind,.
We, finally, also know that the Nihilanth has had extensive surgery and cybernetic implants.

Is it really impossible to draw a connection there? Can you even say it’s the unlikely choice rather that a bunch of odd coincidences? Do you really think Valve is incapable of making a plot like that?

They also have their biogenetics screwed around and physically cease to be what they once were. And if Valve had wanted the Overwatch to seem as if they were acting against their will, I'm sure they would have made it appear that way. Lobotomized people make great troops if you've just cut away the instinct to rebel and destroyed their fear.As an aside, there is ZERO evidence that the Combine messed with their genetics of either the Stalkers or the Overwatch. (Messing with genetics is better left to as of yet uncreated entities; not full grown humans)

Secondly, again, there’s nothing to say that the Overwatch doesn’t have as much free will as the Nihilanth. The Overwatch just didn’t have a plot device of speaking vague quotes to you at the start of every new level. Being able to know and speak about being a slave, and being able to act upon it aren’t necessarily linked.

Breen on their side is not a non-issue with the teleportation tech. What scenario is more or less likely:

1) Combine never controlled Xen
2) They learn of local teleportation tech (before arrival on Earth or afterwards through Breen), without fine details
3) Combine still can't accomplish it because they don't know where Xen is/what it is/don't have any Xen materials
So Breen isn’t capable of telling them where Xen is (Which Earth stumbled across in their first teleporter experiments), but he’s capable of filling in enough details so that the Combine can figure out the scientific procedure of aiming a Xen teleport to slingshot? “One of these things is not as complex as the other.” Especially when the Combine already have the capability to travel to other dimensions.


1) Combine controlled Xen however long without ever noticing the potential for Xen teleportation (remember you're the one saying they were there because they knew it was an important borderworld)
2) They learn of local teleport tech, maybe as early as HL1, without fine details
3) Even with Breen on their side, filling in a few gaps, thicky Combine still don't get it because they're just thick "ourh tleerprotershun is dur BUUUUUUHST!!"
Like I said, they had to have known about Xen after they invaded Earth, especially with Breen under their thumb. If they couldn’t develop the relay tech then, I don’t see why it’s unlikely they wouldn’t have developed the tech before that time, especially if they just plum didn’t think of it. Again, they seem big on converting tech, not inventing it on their own.

Let's go to the main points because frankly I'm getting doubly bored with the issue. To deal with your points I'm being forced to retype points I've made many times in the past, and I'm thinking that it isn't the greatest use of my time.
It’s your dime :D But to be fair; I'll try and avoid provoking you if you choose to stop arguing like what happened last time.

The main points remain unchanged - the heart of the evidence for the non-Combine-on-Xen side is in fact a wealth of *missing* evidence for the Combine-on-Xen side. To make up for that missing evidence you need to practically write a novel:
eg, no space on Xen for Combine buildings/ground too soft
As we’ve seen, there’s more than a few places on Xen big enough for a citadel (in theory at least. Heh, maybe the combine thought so too and sent in a few citadels only to watch them pummet to the bottom of Xen ;)), the question here is “Would they just leave that crap lying around when they can use it to invade other dimensions?”
Combine too stupid to figure out Xen teleportation
A bit of a over exaggeration of my point. (Chang “too stupid” to “not as clever as humans AKA the main characters”)

Combine don't have Xen forces in their armies because they don't feel like itNever said that. Again, we don’t know if they had any Xen forces in their armies prior to the Nihilanth’s death. (But again, this requires that the Xen forces be superior to the Combine’s own forces or to be worth more on other planets then on Xen; otherwise the Combine would just go with their own stuff. We know they at least use one shackled Vortigaunt as slave labor post-Nihilanth, which probably means they are more) Additionally, once the Nihilanth went boom, the Vorts aren’t under the same kind of control as they once were. That’s theorize on the garg for a second.

With the Nihilanth still alive: You tell the Nihilanth to have the garg attack wherever.
With the Nihilanth dead: You find a garg, capture it, try to surgically alter it into a slave and then loose it where ever you want it OR you send a Strider, who are also more mobile and have better range and are mass produced. :D

All Combine trademarks in HL2 are Earth specific and ONLY occur on Earth Or amoung any culture that identifies with visual symbols as much as Humans do. And again, notice how the Stalkers, who aren’t meant to ever bee seen by humans, do not have logo’s of any kind. So much for branding your cattle. :)

[qyote]...and so on. It doesn't end there by a long shot.
They way I look at it is that you try and dig up all this reasoning as why it CAN’T BE POSSIBLE!!!!1111 but just about every one of those questions can itself be questioned. In the end, we still have two quotes, one creature designation, an EXTREMLY logical assumption (Inter-dimensional cybernetic enslavement!) and a satellite hoob-a-joob up an aliens butt. Not a lot of evidence, no, but there’s never been anything in game that specifically contradicts it, just a lot of analysis which itself can be analyzed. Why you continue to rag on the validity of it is beyond me.

On the Combine-on-Xen side there are 2 quotes, one metal arse, and what you call a logical assumption, but what I call an oversimplification. Again, how are they an oversimplification? One correlation and that’s just the way the universe works; two correlations and it’s a coincidence, but three correlations and things start to get fishy. On top of that, we have the two quotes which mesh with the correlations.

Well, I did, but the response I got was "ah, you're not arguing! I must be right, then!" Barring people trying to claim that their theory is the One True God of HL2 theories, I'll gladly put this issue in the bin.Well, it more along the lines of "Each consequtive post kept dropping more and more of the argument while bring up new stuff so it appears that he's scrambling." And as I've said many times before; I may be wrong. It's possible. Valve changes the story to suit what they think will make good games (Take Breen for instance, originally he was going to be titled "The Consul" and have nothing to do with Black Mesa; Newell later thought it would be cool to make him the Administrator of Black Mesa and so they changed it, probably to the dismay of whoever was the administrator beforehand. :D) so for all we know I could be wrong now but right later, or vice versa. Currently, I think things point to a Xen-Combine connection, with no direct stab through the heart on the theory as of yet. Doesn't mean there won't be a key piece of information later that changes it, of course. If you felt I was portraying the Xen-Combine theory as the only valid one, I apologize; in the face of the rather "venomous" opposition to it I guess I felt that I needed to come on equally strong. Again I apoligize.

[r2000]

The only way a Combine Xen connection can be, is that the Nihilanth and the Vorts, had been used by the combine, and left to be. The combine no longer had a use in Xen, because they had acheived peace, couldn't find new land or something on that order. But we found them. How do we know Xen didn't actually win? I mean looking at the end cinematic of HL1, i see burning tanks and dead marines, not dead gargs or dead vorts.

[jimmyjam]

Breen isn't comparable to the Nihilanth. The Combine could control humanity without Breen, he's more of a PR exercise. He doesn't have any of those things because he hasn't been modified by the Combine at all - some people are trying to argue that the Nihilanth has been, despite the fact that there are some big differences between whatever happened to the Nihilanth and what the Combine do in HL2.

humans are not a hivemind, of course there will be differences when enslaving us

[Jandor]

After enslaving the race that knows how to do it, making a giant version of the race that knows how to do it, and using the technology to invade Earth via Xen forces. They suddenly got mass amnesia?

You can't even use the argument that it was a natural ability, the Xenians had built teleporters. Gordon uses one or two when on Xen. He even activates one in a rudimentary puzzle.

A race that has evolved massive brains and mental powers at the expense of there bodies are so thick that they can't emulate it even when its sat there staring you in the face.

Also, how does Nihilanth stay in contact with the Advisors? There are no screens anywhere on Xen.

Infact, there is no Combine technology on Xen, whatsoever.

[UndeadScottsman]

You can't even use the argument that it was a natural ability, the Xenians had built teleporters. Gordon uses one or two when on Xen. He even activates one in a rudimentary puzzle.

A race that has evolved massive brains and mental powers at the expense of there bodies are so thick that they can't emulate it even when its sat there staring you in the face.

Also, how does Nihilanth stay in contact with the Advisors? There are no screens anywhere on Xen.

Infact, there is no Combine technology on Xen, whatsoever.

Aside from the cybernetics the Nihilanth has (Along with possibly the collars/shackles of the Vortigaunts). The cybenetics would have to be the way the Combine keep the nihlanth under control which would probably also account for how the Nihilanth keeps in touch with the Combine if the Nihilanth has no other means of contacting them. (Telepathy; using teleport technology, whatever)

And again; the only race that's shown the ability to use Xen as a relay are the humans. The natives Xen race were only ever shown to teleport between Xen and Earth and from one point in Xen to another.

[Samon]

Wrong thread for the xen/combine argument :P

http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?t=72731

[Jandor]

And again; the only race that's shown the ability to use Xen as a relay are the humans. The natives Xen race were only ever shown to teleport between Xen and Earth and from one point in Xen to another.



How does that make my point invalid? I say if the Combine where on Xen they would copy the local teleportation technology and you say, "The natives Xen race were only ever shown to teleport between Xen and Earth and from one point in Xen to another."
Which means they know how to locally teleport.
and it dosn't even use a massive dark energy reactor like Combine teleports, it just uses a few crystals. Surely, even from planet to planet its more efficient.
Especially for use, say, when Breen is doing his escape at the end.

[Angry Lawyer]

If EVERY species used Xen as a relay, then you'd see one hell of a lot more things pinging in and out of existance. The universe is a big place, and probably has a lot of intelligent species. Xen would be really crouded.

-Angry Lawyer

[ríomhaire]

The arguement about the teleporting tech. I think the Combine did see Xen's usefulness for teleporting, as a boarder world, but they were so happy and overjoyed about having a nice little boarder world under their control they didn't even notice the other great aspects of it. ie they were concentrating to hard on 1 thing to notice the other.

On a side note, does anyone think the Combine control(ed) the world the Xenians originaly came from?

[Jandor]

But surely there tunneling technology negates the usefullness of the Border world?

Wouldn't it be cheaper to teleport straight to the destination rather than charge up the Reactors, teleport to Xen, charge up the reactors, teleport to Earth?

and you always spell Border World, Boarder world ;) .

[Angry Lawyer]

That doesn't make sense. It's not really a hospitable place, the only use it would have would be for the ability to teleport around.

I still think that the first contact between the races took place during the 7 hour war.

-Angry Lawyer

[ríomhaire]

But whe you drive from A to B but the road goes through C you must go through C, you don't have to stop at C.

-----=old portal tech
-----=new portal tech

(Combine World)\----------/(Earth)
.........................\........../
...........................\......./
............................(Xen)

Note: the above may or may not be bulls**t

[Jandor]

The Combine were not on Xen, they dont have the Xenian teleportation technology, they dont use Xen weapons, they dont use Xen troops, they havn't had there architecture influenced by Xen, No one mentions that they where on Xen.

All they had to do to show the link, was have Breen mention it, or Mossman mention it, or a have Grunts fighting alongside Overwatch.

Nothing has been shown, and when you cant see a link, its more than likely a link does not exist. You can make a link, you can force that link to fit, but that dosn't mean it's right.

For instance:

My theory is that invisible coca cola cans ruled Xen, you cant see them because there invisible and no mentions it because '"We are Slaves" - to the coke cans'. You can't disprove my coca cola theory, but its obvious that it's not right ;) .

[jonnyapps]

haven't read whole thread but two things of note. 1. it's called aftermath. doesn't that mean it'll be, you know, 'after' the 7hour war? 2. a number of you need to look into the meaning 'anticlimatic'.



As for the anti-climactic ending, the only Half Life game, that ended "happy" was Blue Shift.

[Jandor]

You should read the whole thread, its not about the thread title anymore ;) .

1. A decline viewed in disappointing contrast with a previous rise: the anticlimax of a brilliant career.

All the games except Blue Shift ended with the G-Man putting you in stasis. Meanwhile Barney escaped.

I'm not saying the endings where bad by the way, but I'm sure Adrian wasn't best pleased ;) .

[ríomhaire]

The Combine were not on Xen, they dont have the Xenian teleportation technology
Xen didn't have teleport 'technology' they had natural teleports.

[Jandor]

As in they grow?

Why can't the Combine grow them?

[UndeadScottsman]

The Combine were not on Xen, they dont have the Xenian teleportation technology,Again, there's nothing showing any race other than Humans know how to use Xen as a relay. Teleporting on other dimensions leads to Xen; Earth found a way to, at first, rebound the beam from Xen back to earth and then later how to aim the beam so that it slingshot the signal from Xen to Earth, bypassing Xen entirely. No other race has demonstrated that ability. (And again; the relay uses a bypass of how teleporting on Earth leads to Xen; obviously if you are on Xen, you wouldn’t need to use Xen as a relay.)

Also, as I said before, It's speculation that the Combine’s teleportation doesn't make use of Xen, actually. Mossman said "their universe" not "the combine homeworld," which honestly sounds like a generic point of origin rather than a specific local. Common sense would dictate that it's highly likely that none of the rebellion even have a clue where the Combine even come from, specifically. I’m sure the Combine wouldn’t advertise that knowledge, after all.

they dont use Xen weapons, they dont use Xen troops, they havn't had there architecture influenced by Xen,
They wouldn't use Xen weaponry if their own weaponry was superior (Which I would suspect to be true. Combine/Human hybrid technology can be easily manufactured on Earth; doesn't need to be fed and won't die. And the Synth probably make better troops than anything on Xen, with the exception of the Headcrabs who make a good way to disrupt areas.) Plus they, you know, lost the Nihilanth and probably most of the control they had over the population of Xen.

Barring that, the only troops we saw on Earth were humans and Synth. No combine slugs, no other aliens. Either they've just enslaved the synth or they don't automatically influx every alien race into their armies. We know the Combine just don't shunt stuff into their army for the sake of using it, after all; they use what they find useful (And the Transhuman forces were on the edge of usefulness, from how Breen made it sound.) As for the architecture thing.. Bwah? Since when was their architecture influenced by Earth?

No one mentions that they where on Xen.
No one mentions the Stalkers are human, or what the Combine were on Earth for, or what caused the Resonance Cascade either.

All they had to do to show the link, was have Breen mention it, or Mossman mention it, or a have Grunts fighting alongside Overwatch.
Like I said; Half-Life 2 is notorious for not spelling even important things out to the player. If they're not even going to say what the Combine is on Earth for, you really think they're going to mention if the Combine is on Xen? Talk about a tangeant

Nothing has been shown, and when you cant see a link, its more than likely a link does not exist. You can make a link, you can force that link to fit, but that doesn't mean it's right.

Again, there's logical assumption to make. We know the Nihilanth and Vortigaunts were slaves; we know the Nihilanth had cybernetic augmentations and we know they existed on the dimensional borderworld. We also know that there's a interdimensional empire of slavers who like to use cybernetics. Is the link especially strong? No, it isn't unmovable. But I think it's strong enough that Valve was intending people to figure it out.

For instance:

My theory is that invisible coca cola cans ruled Xen, you cant see them because there invisible and no mentions it because '"We are Slaves" - to the coke cans'. You can't disprove my coca cola theory, but its obvious that it's not right ;) .

Can't dispprove it, no, but I can point out how A. Your invisible coca-cola can's have never been shown to exist (Unlike the Combine) and even if they did exist, there's nothing linking them to the Nihilanth's enslavement. (Obviously we haven't heard of the can's being an enslaving culture, again unlike the situation with the Combine.)

There's a difference between making stuff up and drawing paralelles between preexisting stuff. :P Had the coca-cola can’s been proven to exist, been known to enslave populations in other dimensions, and had a penchant for cybernetics, then I’d say they would have an equal chance with the Combine for being the ones behind Nihilanth’s enslavers. (Well, I would if I still gave a rip about Half-Life, which I probably wouldn’t if there was a race of Coca-Cola’s cans in it. :D)

EDIT: Whoops, I meant to comment on this That doesn't make sense. It's not really a hospitable place, the only use it would have would be for the ability to teleport around.
Don't forget that, at least for the method developer by Earth, Xen is required for teleportation. Controlling the borderworld means you keep an eye on whoever's developing teleportation. This has both the benefits of knowing if a race can become a threat, and acts as an buffer zone for the Combine homeworld.

[Jandor]

Again, there's nothing showing any race other than Humans know how to use Xen as a relay.


Don't forget that, at least for the method developer by Earth, Xen is required for teleportation. Controlling the borderworld means you keep an eye on whoever's developing teleportation. This has both the benefits of knowing if a race can become a threat, and acts as an buffer zone for the Combine homeworld.

No-one knows how to use Xen as a relay except for Humans.
Combine have the Borderworld to keep an eye out for people using this teleportation they dont know about.

???

They wouldn't use Xen weaponry if their own weaponry was superior (Which I would suspect to be true. Combine/Human hybrid technology can be easily manufactured on Earth; doesn't need to be fed and won't die. And the Synth probably make better troops than anything on Xen, with the exception of the Headcrabs who make a good way to disrupt areas.) Plus they, you know, lost the Nihilanth and probably most of the control they had over the population of Xen.

Barring that, the only troops we saw on Earth were humans and Synth. No combine slugs, no other aliens. Either they've just enslaved the synth or they don't automatically influx every alien race into their armies. We know the Combine just don't shunt stuff into their army for the sake of using it, after all; they use what they find useful (And the Transhuman forces were on the edge of usefulness, from how Breen made it sound.)


So, The Xen stuff isn't useful then.


Like I said; Half-Life 2 is notorious for not spelling even important things out to the player. If they're not even going to say what the Combine is on Earth for, you really think they're going to mention if the Combine is on Xen? Talk about a tangeant


If they wanted to show a link, yes.

They made it obvious who Breen is.
They made it obvious what is happening to Humans.
They made it obvious they want our Teleport tech.

Again, there's logical assumption to make. We know the Nihilanth and Vortigaunts were slaves; we know the Nihilanth had cybernetic augmentations and we know they existed on the dimensional borderworld. We also know that there's a interdimensional empire of slavers who like to use cybernetics. Is the link especially strong? No, it isn't unmovable. But I think it's strong enough that Valve was intending people to figure it out.


Nihilanth had metal up his arse. Stalkers have metal limbs. Soldiers have a metal "plug" on there chest. That's your link?
How come Vortigaunts arn't modified with Cybernetics?


Can't dispprove it, no, but I can point out how A. Your invisible coca-cola can's have never been shown to exist (Unlike the Combine) and even if they did exist, there's nothing linking them to the Nihilanth's enslavement. (Obviously we haven't heard of the can's being an enslaving culture, again unlike the situation with the Combine.)

There's a difference between making stuff up and drawing paralelles between preexisting stuff. Had the coca-cola can’s been proven to exist, been known to enslave populations in other dimensions, and had a penchant for cybernetics, then I’d say they would have an equal chance with the Combine for being the ones behind Nihilanth’s enslavers. (Well, I would if I still gave a rip about Half-Life, which I probably wouldn’t if there was a race of Coca-Cola’s cans in it. )



There are drinks machines all over HL2.
They use caffeine to get people addicted. (enslaved)
Nihilanths "assjet" was actually a drinks dispenser. ;)

[UndeadScottsman]

No-one knows how to use Xen as a relay except for Humans.
Combine have the Borderworld to keep an eye out for people using this teleportation they dont know about.

???
What the heck are you talking about? Xen Relay != Teleporting to Xen. Teleporting to Xen is just a standard teleport; the Xen relay is aiming a teleport, that would otherwise have arrived on to Xen, to slingshot back to the dimension of origin. Again, as I said, the method of teleportation that Earth initally developed was ONLY from Xen-Earth or Earth-Xen; they had to devise a rebound and later a relay technique to do Earth-Earth locations.

So, The Xen stuff isn't useful then. As additions to their army? No, probably not. As guards for Xen (Which, as laidlaw mentioned, the "Nihlanth race" is well adapted to) though? Most likely. It allows the Combine to keep their resources busy enslaving new worlds while the Xen race can keep tabs on the Borderworld.

If they wanted to show a link, yes.

They made it obvious who Breen is.
Which ends up being irrelevent to the Combine's intentions. We know Breen is the human face of the Combine and that he's helping to "deliver Earth"; doesn't tell us a thing about why the Combine want Earth, though. We just know they want us complacent for whatever they're doing.
They made it obvious what is happening to Humans.
No they didn't. They had one spraypaint in an extremly obscure location that just demonstrates what the soldiers are, and a computer monitor that can have the channel changed to to show a picture of a pale human on a table with wearing a pair of combine trousers and with something on his neck. We already know the Combine accept vollenteers so it really doesn't demonstrate any major overarching goal the Combine have for humanity. I file both those things to be as obscure as the two quotes. Plus they both don't cover the Stalker part of the equation, with is COMPLETELY left unannounced in the game. "If Valve wanted us to believe they are converted humans, why didn't they have someone SAY it?" We have some visual clues that allow us to draw a logical assumption, but we have no "smoking gun."

They made it obvious they want our Teleport tech.
For that to be a reason they invaded requires them to have known about the Xen-relay prior to the invasion. (Which is possible, but never spelled out for us.) otherwise it's just a lucky find they came accross during whatever theri reason to come to Earth was. Again, there's nary as scrap of evidence of why the Combine came to earth; you can draw a lot of edjucated guesses though.

Nihilanth had metal up his arse. Stalkers have metal limbs. Soldiers have a metal "plug" on there chest. That's your link?
Look at the big picture please. The link is that we have a dimensional borderworld (Described by laidlaw as "a place you have to go through to get to other places.") On this borderworld, there is an enslaved race that's a hivemind. Seemingly at the center of this enslaved Hivemind is an entity that has been cybernetically and surgically altered.

Meanwhile, there's an empire that travels to other dimensions (Meaning they would have been highly likely to discover the borderworld at some point, if not the first world they ever discovered due to the way we know how teleportation works), and enslaves the resident population using cybernetics and surgery. (Provided they find a use for them natives, of course.)

It's just too big a coincidence to disregard, IMO. Is it possible that the Combine never discovered Xen, the Nihilanth got the implant by something else and that the Vorts were enslaves by a third party? Yes. But it's less likely that the Combine being behind it, IMO. If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck and walks like a duck....

How come Vortigaunts arn't modified with Cybernetics?
Well, A. they have the collars/shackles and B. They already put cybernetics in the Nihilanth, and if that keeps tabs on the Hivemind like is theorized, it would makie any major cybernetic additions unneeded for the Vort's beyond simple experimentation (Which the average Hero wouldn't be extremly likely to come accross). This allows the Combine to save time, energy and resources in taking control of the Borderwold (Unlike humans and Earth, who do not share a hivemind and therefore have to be put under the knife one by one)

There are drinks machines all over HL2.
They use caffeine to get people addicted. (enslaved)
Nihilanths "assjet" was actually a drinks dispenser. ;)
There nothing to state that those drinks are sentient; nor enslavers; nor cybernetic afficiando's, nor interdimensional travels. The Combine DO meet all those requirements though, hence why I say there's a connection; your attempt to trivialize it nonwithstanding. :)

[Lemonking]

/me wants Adrian...so kewl
Opoosing force was better then HL1......

[Samon]

* Lemonking wants Adrian...so kewl

Opoosing force was better then HL1......

Opposing force was awesome fun to play, but I would not go that for. Also, adrian sucks :P

[Combine Hybrid]

Adrian > Freeman

Hands down.

[Langolier]

About "stalkers":

Sometimes Resistance Fighters say, "They're never gonna make a Stalker, out of me."

So we can assume that whatever a 'Stalker' is, that it's made from a human, involuntarrily.

We don't know exactly what a "Stalker" is though.

We see a close up of the head of one in Nova Prospeckt.

In that same place, we see many humans in those pods and one human that appears to be in the process of being made into an Overwatch Soldier.

If you're observant enough, you can probably tell that the creatures seen walking around the Citadel are the same as the 'thing' you saw in Nova Prospeckt on the monitor.

You know prisoners are taken to Nova Prospeckt...

You hear Resistance Fighters talking about not wanting to be made into Stalkers...

So I think we can deduce that Stalkers are humans.

I think it's very possible that the Combine controlled Xen, perhaps even likely.

Though I also think it's quite possible that they didn't.

[Jandor]

What the heck are you talking about? Xen Relay != Teleporting to Xen. Teleporting to Xen is just a standard teleport; the Xen relay is aiming a teleport, that would otherwise have arrived on to Xen, to slingshot back to the dimension of origin.

assuming this highly convenient downgrade of Xenian technology has occured, it can still easily teleport one man off world much quicker and much cheaper than the huge dark energy teleporter the Combine use. Why didn't Breen use it to escape Gordon?

Again, as I said, the method of teleportation that Earth initally developed was ONLY from Xen-Earth or Earth-Xen; they had to devise a rebound and later a relay technique to do Earth-Earth locations.


In Black Mesa, there is a small puzzle involving teleports, you have to go round a revolving platform jumping into the right teleport, the right teleport will take you directly to the next platform, not to Xen. They had developed Earth-Earth teleportation during Half Life.

I file both those things to be as obscure as the two quotes.

Well, at least one Combine on Xen theorist admits there obscure :P .

Look at the big picture please. The link is that we have a dimensional borderworld (Described by laidlaw as "a place you have to go through to get to other places.") On this borderworld, there is an enslaved race that's a hivemind. Seemingly at the center of this enslaved Hivemind is an entity that has been cybernetically and surgically altered.

If Xen is the borderworld to everywhere and everywhere has to go through Xen, then Xen would be in a perpetual state of warfare. The Combine would have all there best troops on there. Not just mere Guards that arn't a usefull addition to there army. (V)

As additions to their army? No, probably not. As guards for Xen (Which, as laidlaw mentioned, the "Nihlanth race" is well adapted to) though? Most likely.
________________________________________________

They made it obvious what is happening to Humans.
No they didn't.

I say: "Yes they did"



For that to be a reason they invaded requires them to have known about the Xen-relay prior to the invasion. (Which is possible, but never spelled out for us.) otherwise it's just a lucky find they came accross during whatever theri reason to come to Earth was. Again, there's nary as scrap of evidence of why the Combine came to earth; you can draw a lot of edjucated guesses though.

I never said that's the reason they invaded, I just said it's obvious they want it.
Just because there isn't a reason spelled out for the invasion dosn't mean they invaded Xen. However there lack of Nihilanth-like single/dual/triple person teleportation technology indicates they weren't there.

Look at the big picture please. The link is that we have a dimensional borderworld (Described by laidlaw as "a place you have to go through to get to other places.") On this borderworld, there is an enslaved race that's a hivemind. Seemingly at the center of this enslaved Hivemind is an entity that has been cybernetically and surgically altered.


Imagine there is location A, location B, location C and location D.
To get to C from A, you have to go through B, however, to get to D from A, you dont have to go though B.
Also, just having the one Nihilanth to guard this extremely valuable Borderworld against the threat of the Universe seems rather silly.
I mean, whatt if he is killed, surely they lose the borderworld?

Meanwhile, there's an empire that travels to other dimensions (Meaning they would have been highly likely to discover the borderworld at some point, if not the first world they ever discovered due to the way we know how teleportation works), and enslaves the resident population using cybernetics and surgery. (Provided they find a use for them natives, of course.)

And what use do they have for the natives, the natives that arn't usefull enough to become part of the army, but are usefull enough to Guard the dimensional gateway from and to everywhere and anywhere?

IMO. If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck and walks like a duck....

Xen dosn't look Combine, It dosn't sound Combine, and it dosn't act Combine.

There nothing to state that those drinks are sentient; nor enslavers; nor cybernetic afficiando's, nor interdimensional travels. The Combine DO meet all those requirements though, hence why I say there's a connection; your attempt to trivialize it nonwithstanding.

It's obvious Nihilanths "Assjet" is a drinks dispenser, it leaks new tastier orange flavoured coke when shot, how else would you explain the yellow stuff that comes from it?
It can't be blood, because Nihilanths "Assjet" is supposedly cybernetic ;) .

[Lemonking]

Adrian > Freeman

Hands down.


nein nein und nein

[UndeadScottsman]

assuming this highly convenient downgrade of Xenian technology has occured, it can still easily teleport one man off world much quicker and much cheaper than the huge dark energy teleporter the Combine use. Why didn't Breen use it to escape Gordon?Highly convenient? I talking about stuff that's directly quoted from the games. :P

Breen used the Dark Energy reactor instead of a Xen method, but really, it was close by and would protect him from Freeman. Unless he got the Combine to set up a "ball" teleporter in near his office (Which would go to Xen, and Xen probably isn't in the best shape at the moment) the Dark Energy teleporter would be his best bet. Plus it made a cool end scene ;)

In Black Mesa, there is a small puzzle involving teleports, you have to go round a revolving platform jumping into the right teleport, the right teleport will take you directly to the next platform, not to Xen. They had developed Earth-Earth teleportation during Half Life.I never said otherwise (Indeed, how would I be able to mention that it IS a possibility that the Combine invaded for the relay tech if I was also saying Earth couldn't have had it when they were invaded?) How the relay was developed is discussed a bit in Blue Shift. Kliener managed to compress and make it even better post Black Mesa.

Well, at least one Combine on Xen theorist admits there obscure :P .This IS Half-Life after all; everything's obscure :D

If Xen is the borderworld to everywhere and everywhere has to go through Xen, then Xen would be in a perpetual state of warfare. Don't talk to me, talk to Laidlaw. (Although this situation requires that it's freqent that races develope teleporter technology and head out for war; freqent enough that the Combine can't get a bead on those who have recently discovered teleportation and take them down.)

The Combine would have all there best troops on there. Not just mere Guards that arn't a usefull addition to there army. (V) Unless their "best troops" don't function as well as the Guards in the Xen terrain (Which, as have been stated, the Xen race was EXTREMLY well suited to Xen, having evoloved on there for a long time). Again, we're not talking total defense of Xen here; we're talking about an early warning system that informs the Combine when dimensions are utilizing teleportation to Xen and if there's a large mobolization of troops; obviously that happened as seen at the end of Half-Life.

I say: "Yes they did"Well then, I disagree with you since there's nothing expressly saying, IN GAME, that the Combine are converting the total human population, but you can draw some extremly logical conclusions. (Luckily in this case we outside sources to verify the theory.)

I never said that's the reason they invaded, I just said it's obvious they want it. I was asking for reasons that the Combine came to Earth though. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

Just because there isn't a reason spelled out for the invasion dosn't mean they invaded Xen. And just because something isn't spelled out doesn't mean it doesn't exist, which was the point I was trying to make.

However there lack of Nihilanth-like single/dual/triple person teleportation technology indicates they weren't there. We saw a total of two combine teleporters; and one of them was made with the Relay technology. And again; would the Combine even need more than a few of those things ANYWHERE? It's not like their Earth based operation has a lot of reasons send 1-3 man groups to Xen.

Imagine there is location A, location B, location C and location D.
To get to C from A, you have to go through B, however, to get to D from A, you dont have to go though B.Again, it's possible the Combine never knew about Xen, what with the Combine teleporation technology seemingly able to bypass the Borderworld (Then again, it may not, Mossman never got into how Xen teleporation relates to the Combine, which is why we're having t his conversation) but I highly doubt that's the case. In order for the Combine to never have known about Xen, it requires them to have never found Xen during any of their explorations, even though it's the Borderworld. It also requires that NOT A SINGLE RACE they've ever encounted to have known about Xen.

Also, just having the one Nihilanth to guard this extremely valuable Borderworld against the threat of the Universe seems rather silly.
I mean, whatt if he is killed, surely they lose the borderworld?That assumes they can just make a new Nihilanth (Which I doubt to be the case.) Plus, as said before, I highly doubt either the Nihilanth nor the Combine expected a single fragile entity who's race had died in the HUNDREDS against the Nihilanth, to come directly into it's chamber and defeat it on it's own little lonesome. What they probably expected is a full on war, which the Combine would have been paying more attention to; not some random, insignificant interloper. They were probably already engaged in attacking Random Dimension Q to worry about Freeman.

And what use do they have for the natives, the natives that arn't usefull enough to become part of the army, but are usefull enough to Guard the dimensional gateway from and to everywhere and anywhere?Aye. On a "normal" earth like terrain the Combine's forces would theoretically outclass the Xen race. On Xen, however, the Xen race gains a few notches due to being adapted to Xen.

Xen dosn't look Combine, It dosn't sound Combine, and it dosn't act Combine.Because it doesn't suit the Combine's needs that the entirety of Xen look and sound like the Combine. Just that the Nihilanth (Who looks Combine) keep an eye on things. Anything else is a waste of resources.

It's obvious Nihilanths "Assjet" is a drinks dispenser, it leaks new tastier orange flavoured coke when shot, how else would you explain the yellow stuff that comes from it?
It can't be blood, because Nihilanths "Assjet" is supposedly cybernetic ;) . Old game. Although there's nothing really stating that Combine cybernetics don't use some sort of liquid. :)

[UndeadScottsman]

About "stalkers":

Sometimes Resistance Fighters say, "They're never gonna make a Stalker, out of me."

So we can assume that whatever a 'Stalker' is, that it's made from a human, involuntarrily.

We don't know exactly what a "Stalker" is though.

We see a close up of the head of one in Nova Prospeckt.

In that same place, we see many humans in those pods and one human that appears to be in the process of being made into an Overwatch Soldier.

If you're observant enough, you can probably tell that the creatures seen walking around the Citadel are the same as the 'thing' you saw in Nova Prospeckt on the monitor.

You know prisoners are taken to Nova Prospeckt...

You hear Resistance Fighters talking about not wanting to be made into Stalkers...

So I think we can deduce that Stalkers are humans.

I think it's very possible that the Combine controlled Xen, perhaps even likely.

Though I also think it's quite possible that they didn't.

Like I said; there's nothing saying that the shrivled brown slaves (I.e. stalkers) were once human. We CAN make some logical conclusions based on what we do know, though. :)

[Samon]

Like I said; there's nothing saying that the shrivled brown slaves (I.e. stalkers) were once human. We CAN make some logical conclusions based on what we do know, though. :)

Actually there is, Raising the bar confirms they were human, along with the walkthrough. :)

[UndeadScottsman]

Actually there is, Raising the bar confirms they were human, along with the walkthrough. :)

IN GAME, Samon, IN GAME. :)

[Langolier]

IN GAME, Samon, IN GAME. :)

Valve never, or rarely, spells anything out for us.

However it's very obvious by piecing together evidence in the game, and then thinking about it logically, that "Stalkers" are humans, and that the things we see in the Citadel are "Stalkers".

Those things... "Stalkers", look like humans with some parts removed.
"They're never gonna MAKE a 'Stalker', out of me." -Resistance Fighter

They are kept under guard by Overwatch Soldiers.

We saw one in the process of being made, or in storage, in Nova Prospect; a facility that prisoners are taken too.

Resistance Fighters don't want to be made into "Stalkers".

It's not spelled out, but it's pretty obvious...

Now this argument can't be the main point to this thread... gosh, what was this about originally? Something about a war and a marine that EVERYBODY loves?

[UndeadScottsman]

Valve never, or rarely, spells anything out for us.

However it's very obvious by piecing together evidence in the game, and then thinking about it logically, that "Stalkers" are humans, and that the things we see in the Citadel are "Stalkers".
Which was the point I was trying to make. :D

Anywho, I would very much like a retail expansion featuring Shephard, perferrably done by Gearbox, and set around the events of Half-Life 2 with the Gman inflitrating Shephard into the Combine to prevent Race-X from taking advantage of the Combine being distracted by the rebellion.

Seven hour war I'm not really too enthused about.

[ríomhaire]

If Xen is the borderworld to everywhere and everywhere has to go through Xen, then Xen would be in a perpetual state of warfare. The Combine would have all there best troops on there. Not just mere Guards that arn't a usefull addition to there army.
As UndeadScottsman has pointed out the Xenians were adapted to Xen (imagine a strider, mortar or crab synth trying to get around on Xen). The only reason Gordon had a hope in hell is because of Nihilanth sending a huge invasion force to Earth + the disruption the portal storms were causeing.
Anyway the Combine don't really nead local teleporting much do they?
Plus who said they weren't a useful adition to the army?

[Langolier]

Which was the point I was trying to make. :D

Anywho, I would very much like a retail expansion featuring Shephard, perferrably done by Gearbox, and set around the events of Half-Life 2 with the Gman inflitrating Shephard into the Combine to prevent Race-X from taking advantage of the Combine being distracted by the rebellion.

Seven hour war I'm not really too enthused about.

So do I. Personally, I would have thought Shephard would be perfect for Aftermath. Valve damn well better do a good job of explaining Freeman's re-insertion into City 17...

[Jandor]

As UndeadScottsman has pointed out the Xenians were adapted to Xen (imagine a strider, mortar or crab synth trying to get around on Xen). The only reason Gordon had a hope in hell is because of Nihilanth sending a huge invasion force to Earth + the disruption the portal storms were causeing.

Gunships?

and also, on that note, why the hell wouldn't they use Mantas elsewhere, with there beaming troops in and all, it'd be like a Dropship that never runs out. I can't see the Combine leaving all those on Xen.

and, I wouldn't call Nihilanths attack "huge". It dosn't even fill Black Mesa.

Anyway the Combine don't really nead local teleporting much do they?

Nope, I guess your right. Why would Mantas be usefull? Why would cheap single man (at a time) teleports be usefull? Why would just plonking Overwatch into a rebel base be usefull?

Plus who said they weren't a useful adition to the army?

UndeadScottsman.

[FRESCO_SUPREME]

So do I. Personally, I would have thought Shephard would be perfect for Aftermath. Valve damn well better do a good job of explaining Freeman's re-insertion into City 17...

as do I. its feasible g-man drops shephard in after he takes freeman out, as shephard would have training in the sort of massive battle that is likely to ensue in and around city 17, because he was in the marines and could be seen as more capable than gordan to do this.

*prepares to be flamed*

but i do think that gordan will be the main character in aftermath.

[r2000]

as do I. its feasible g-man drops shephard in after he takes freeman out, as shephard would have training in the sort of massive battle that is likely to ensue in and around city 17, because he was in the marines and could be seen as more capable than gordan to do this.

*prepares to be flamed*

but i do think that gordan will be the main character in aftermath.
Agreed. The G-Man decides that Shepard would be the best man to clean up the planet Earth or something like that...

[pomegranate]

Actually, that would be a damn cool twist to the story.
on top of the shaking Citadel: Zzzzapp!
Alyx "Who the hell are you?"
"Corporal Shepard, US Marines, ma'am" <Looks around> "Where the hell am I?!"
G-Man: "Welcome to...Earth, Mr Shepard."

So, whilst Gordon is needed *elsewhere*, the G-Man still needs Alyx, Eli and Kleiner to survive the cataclysm of City 17, so he sends in Shepard as a protector. Which is very similar to my ideas a few months ago about an expansion with Shepard in the Seven-Hours War.

Though I'm certain that Aftermath will be Gordon. :|

[Angry Lawyer]

Gunships?

and also, on that note, why the hell wouldn't they use Mantas elsewhere, with there beaming troops in and all, it'd be like a Dropship that never runs out. I can't see the Combine leaving all those on Xen.

and, I wouldn't call Nihilanths attack "huge". It dosn't even fill Black Mesa.



Nope, I guess your right. Why would Mantas be usefull? Why would cheap single man (at a time) teleports be usefull? Why would just plonking Overwatch into a rebel base be usefull?



UndeadScottsman.

Woah. Man, you've gotta become a lawyer, you're even better than me at arguing it.

-Angry Lawyer

[UndeadScottsman]

Gunships?

and also, on that note, why the hell wouldn't they use Mantas elsewhere, with there beaming troops in and all, it'd be like a Dropship that never runs out. I can't see the Combine leaving all those on Xen.

and, I wouldn't call Nihilanths attack "huge". It dosn't even fill Black Mesa.

Nope, I guess your right. Why would Mantas be usefull? Why would cheap single man (at a time) teleports be usefull? Why would just plonking Overwatch into a rebel base be usefull?

UndeadScottsman.

Well, first of all, the Combine was sitting on attacking the rebel base for awhile so that Mossman could leak out the relay tech, which is why it was never attacked until Freeman showed up.

Secondly; what use would the manta's be? They, IIRC, teleport things to their location, which means up in the air. The creature then falls to the ground. Most of the rebel bases had roofs, so that's a lot of energy to teleport one soldier at a time to roofs; especially when the drop ship (In this case) would be far more effective in troops per second and in energy costs.

[UndeadScottsman]

Actually, that would be a damn cool twist to the story.
on top of the shaking Citadel: Zzzzapp!
Alyx "Who the hell are you?"
"Corporal Shepard, US Marines, ma'am" <Looks around> "Where the hell am I?!"
G-Man: "Welcome to...Earth, Mr Shepard."

So, whilst Gordon is needed *elsewhere*, the G-Man still needs Alyx, Eli and Kleiner to survive the cataclysm of City 17, so he sends in Shepard as a protector. Which is very similar to my ideas a few months ago about an expansion with Shepard in the Seven-Hours War.

Though I'm certain that Aftermath will be Gordon. :|

Nah, I was thinking more along the lines of
-----------
<cue title>
Half-Life 2: Opposing Force 2(?)
<sound of rotors and combat in the background, heavy breathing voice in the foreground>

<screen brightens to see the inside of a combine drop ship, the Gman’s face is superimposed over the image>

Gman: Corporal Shephard… Welcome back. I have extremely good news! It seems my… employers have found a “use” for you after all..

<background image fades to railpods inside Nova Prospekt>

Gman: And with recent events on Earth, it is indeed doubtful anything you could reveal about the Black Mesa Incident would be of value to anybody…

<background changes to what looks like a medical lab; giant metal arms wielding disturbing medical instruments hang motionless from the ceiling>

Gman: Not that you’ll be in much of a position to inform anyone. While I don’t doubt that you’ll find things to be a bit… uncomfortable, I’m sure you realize that certain “sacrifices” are required of us all…

<gman smirks, then fades out towards the end of his speech and when he stops talking, the medical instruments come alive>

Combine Doctor: Subject ready for Overwatch augmentation process. Beginning the procedure.

<The instruments head closer and closer to the screen.. Fade to black as a scream echos through the blackness>

[Jandor]

Well, first of all, the Combine was sitting on attacking the rebel base for awhile so that Mossman could leak out the relay tech, which is why it was never attacked until Freeman showed up.

How do you know they where sitting on attacking the base for a while?
I was under the impression that Freeman was followed.

Secondly; what use would the manta's be? They, IIRC, teleport things to their location, which means up in the air. The creature then falls to the ground. Most of the rebel bases had roofs, so that's a lot of energy to teleport one soldier at a time to roofs; especially when the drop ship (In this case) would be far more effective in troops per second and in energy costs.

Black Mesa East had a roof, IIRC, the rest where Shanty towns or small huts.
How is it more efficient to fill a number of Dropships up with 4 troops and take them from the Citadel (or Prospekt) to the rebel bases, when a few Mantas could come along and start dropping Controllers?

Wooops, small fast flying monsters that throw Energy balls arn't usefull enough to go off Xen either.

<cue title>
Half-Life 2: Opposing Force 2(?)
<sound of rotors and combat in the background, heavy breathing voice in the foreground>

<screen brightens to see the inside of a combine drop ship, the Gman’s face is superimposed over the image>

Gman: Corporal Shephard… Welcome back. I have extremely good news! It seems my… employers have found a “use” for you after all..

<background image fades to railpods inside Nova Prospekt>

Gman: And with recent events on Earth, it is indeed doubtful anything you could reveal about the Black Mesa Incident would be of value to anybody…

<background changes to what looks like a medical lab; giant metal arms wielding disturbing medical instruments hang motionless from the ceiling>

Gman: Not that you’ll be in much of a position to inform anyone. While I don’t doubt that you’ll find things to be a bit… uncomfortable, I’m sure you realize that certain “sacrifices” are required of us all…

<gman smirks, then fades out towards the end of his speech and when he stops talking, the medical instruments come alive>

Combine Doctor: Subject ready for Overwatch augmentation process. Beginning the procedure.

<The instruments head closer and closer to the screen.. Fade to black as a scream echos through the blackness>


That's quite cool really.

[Faulk_Wulf]

Actually that is. One of the few quasi-plausible pro-Shepard pitches I've read in quite a while. Yay! If nothing else, it'd be good for Fan-Fiction.

[Marx! II]

And put you in the awesome position of wanting to give G-man a piece of your mind.

[ríomhaire]

Nope, I guess your right. Why would Mantas be usefull? Why would cheap single man (at a time) teleports be usefull? Why would just plonking Overwatch into a rebel base be usefull?
Because Earth was the first planet the Combine ever opressed the people in a way that left them a chance to rebel (somebody from Valve said it in an interview) so they never neaded to teleport forces around quickly. And all they really nead on other worlds is getting the invastion force in, tthen out, then resources and more troops out. They owned Earth in 7 hours so they don't need local teleport for invasions.

[UndeadScottsman]

How do you know they where sitting on attacking the base for a while?
I was under the impression that Freeman was followed.
Breen mentions that "they could have moved on the rebels at any time" in Nova Propsekt, IIRC. Either he's trying to sound like he's in more control that he actually is (Which I honestly wouldn't put past him), or he knew where the rebels were hiding (Which is extremly possible, since they had a mole there the entire time i.e. Mossman)

Black Mesa East had a roof, IIRC, the rest where Shanty towns or small huts.
How is it more efficient to fill a number of Dropships up with 4 troops and take them from the Citadel (or Prospekt) to the rebel bases, when a few Mantas could come along and start dropping Controllers?
First of all, don't dropships hold like eight troops?

Wooops, small fast flying monsters that throw Energy balls arn't usefull enough to go off Xen either.
How many times does it need to be said, the Nihilanth was DESTROYED by the time of Half-Life 2. With him went the Combine's big trump card over the resident's of Xen and only a few who are still under strict Combine supervision (IE: the Street Sweeper and the Vort in the prison) are not in positions to get away from the Combine.

However, yes I guess the Combine doesn't seem to feel a need for a small airborne ranged attacker, being that they never so much as slapped a ranged weapon onto a scanner's propulsion machinery. (Which could probably take a few more bullets than a Controller in any case; plus it would have been a cool enemy) I guess they felt that ranged ground troops, Gunships, and Manhacks were adaquate.



That's quite cool really.
Thanks, I thought it would be a cool idea that the Gman would screw around with Shephard. Being that the good Corporal is the "reserve" pawn; he gets the crap assignments. :)

[Jandor]

First of all, don't dropships hold like eight troops?

No.

How many times does it need to be said, the Nihilanth was DESTROYED by the time of Half-Life 2. With him went the Combine's big trump card over the resident's of Xen and only a few who are still under strict Combine supervision (IE: the Street Sweeper and the Vort in the prison) are not in positions to get away from the Combine.


Keep saying it. I dont believe the Combine would put all there eggs in a Nihilanth shaped basket. what if someone killed Nihilanth, they would lose control.

However, yes I guess the Combine doesn't seem to feel a need for a small airborne ranged attacker, being that they never so much as slapped a ranged weapon onto a scanner's propulsion machinery. (Which could probably take a few more bullets than a Controller in any case; plus it would have been a cool enemy) I guess they felt that ranged ground troops, Gunships, and Manhacks were adaquate.

They have no use for a small airborne ranged attacker because there isn't a gun on the scanners?

They owned Earth in 7 hours so they don't need local teleport for invasions.

How about for peacekeeping?
How about for teleporting a single man/slug without the half an hour wait?

Source for that interview, it might be interesting.

[ríomhaire]

How about for peacekeeping?
Because Earth the humans were the first to rebel and they never had to deal with one before so they didn't really think of it. That interview was posted on the forums ages ago and it will be almost impossinble to dig out as I don't know who posted on that thread.

[UndeadScottsman]

No.
Well that begs the question of why they make transports that only ferry around four people. :P Still, it beats the Manta's who have only seen dropping a total of 3 troops at one time (Usually one or two); probably saves energy too, not having to teleport them in to just drop them on the roof.

Keep saying it. I dont believe the Combine would put all there eggs in a Nihilanth shaped basket. what if someone killed Nihilanth, they would lose control.
Again, I doubt the Combine created the Nihilanth in the first place and I doubt they have the capability to create a new one from scratch. Also, I must stress that Nihilanth was safely hidden away and only because Freeman faced him 1 on 1 and won (Which is highly unusual since the Nihalanth had more than a few human corpses in HEV suits laying around his chamber and his minions slaughtered human en masse at Black Mesa) was the Nihilanth destroyed.

Let me put it this way; if the Combine only had one basket, wouldn't it make sense they would only put their eggs into it rather than not have their eggs at all? I'm sure if they felt their basket was in immediate danger, they would send troops to aid it, but remember the Nihilanth was NOT destroyed in some grand invasion, nor was he destroyed by an army or even a being of equal power; he was killed by a lone creature he should have otherwise been able to squash just as he had numorous others of that breed. Ultimately, the Nihilanth (and through extension, the Combine) got caught with their pants down. :D

They have no use for a small airborne ranged attacker because there isn't a gun on the scanners?While I simplified the concept, yes that is pretty much the gist of my smart alec remark. The Combine didn't use a mechanical or synth version of a small flying ranged attacker (Which we know they would have the capability to create since A. They had the technology that made the scanners and manhacks fly and B. We know they had lots of different weapons) , ergo they must not have felt the need to have one. (Or Valve just didn't feel the need to make that type of enemy :)).

[Jandor]

Well that begs the question of why they make transports that only ferry around four people. Still, it beats the Manta's who have only seen dropping a total of 3 troops at one time (Usually one or two); probably saves energy too, not having to teleport them in to just drop them on the roof.

Xenian teleports have no visible energy source, and Mantas do not appear large enough to carry around a substantial energy source, therefore, I conclude that it uses very little energy, certainly no more than say, the Dropships engines.

Anyway, I can see this isn't really going anywhere is it. I don't think your going to change your mind, and you havn't convinced me.

I see no reason to continue this.

so, I dont want to see Adrian Shepphard, but 7-Hour war could work.

[Llama]

Xenian teleports have no visible energy source, and Mantas do not appear large enough to carry around a substantial energy source, therefore, I conclude that it uses very little energy, certainly no more than say, the Dropships engines.

Anyway, I can see this isn't really going anywhere is it. I don't think your going to change your mind, and you havn't convinced me.

I see no reason to continue this.

so, I dont want to see Adrian Shepphard, but 7-Hour war could work.

Jandor have you updated your Xen Fauna website recently? And if you have, could you supply a link please?

[Jandor]

No I havn't

www.freewebs.com/jandor

I've been quite busy and it may not reflect my opinions anymore

[UndeadScottsman]

Xenian teleports have no visible energy source,
Neither does any of the other energy attacks of anything from Xen. Heck, even the Combine vehicals have no visible power source. It's what's on the inside that counts.

and Mantas do not appear large enough to carry around a substantial energy source,
You need to take a page from Yoda; "size matters not." A cold fusion reactor can theoreticly be the size of a VCR. We know the Manta's have SOME sort of natural energy source that is decently powerful, which would be how they produce their energy beam attack.

therefore, I conclude that it uses very little energy, certainly no more than say, the Dropships engines.
And I conclude that since both the Lamda Core, Kliener's lab and the Combine teleporter in nova prospekt had pretty obvious charge up times, the ball teleportation must require a decent ammount of energy; more than powering a simple synth dropship, at least.

Anyway, I can see this isn't really going anywhere is it. I don't think your going to change your mind, and you havn't convinced me.

I see no reason to continue this.
*shrug* It's your dime.

[Jandor]

*shrug* It's your dime.

Yes it is.

and by the way, your wrong about the Combine and Xen ;) .

[kaf11]

I agree that Adrian has no sensible place in C17, but the 7-hour war would be awesome.
Violence in FPSs is usually the extravagant against-all-odds fun we always have, but the 7-hour war could have such an air of doom (no pun intended) and futility to it, it'd be incredible. The point is you DO know how it ends - it's how you get there that's the exciting part.
Plus, it could be done in real time over about 8 hours, say. That way we see the war in its bloody entirity plus the portal storms and influx of aliens before, and the proper arrival of the Combine after the surrender at the end.
i like what you're getting at, sounds fun. the idea of imminent doom and destruction could be done very well.

[UndeadScottsman]

and by the way, your wrong about the Combine and Xen ;) .
No one has proven that it's wrong; nor has there been arguement against the theory can't be counter-argued using simple logic. :)

[Angry Lawyer]

Tell me, which is more logical?

1: The Combine controlled Xen, and hid their tracks as much as possible, and neglected to use any form of the research that Xen provided.

2: They never met.

I pick 2.

-Angry Lawyer

[Mechagodzilla]

The combine did copy the vortiguant's shackles though.
And, arguably, the agrunt's bio-armour.

[Jandor]

The combine did copy the vortiguant's shackles though.
And, arguably, the agrunt's bio-armour.

Come on, Shackles?
Bio-Armour? You mean the Synth?

what about Teleports, The Grunts gun that fires round corners, etc.

[Mechagodzilla]

Come on, Shackles?
Bio-Armour? You mean the Synth?

what about Teleports, The Grunts gun that fires round corners, etc.

No, by bio-armour I mean grown/implanted shiny black chrome armour that merges with skin. Seen on both the agrunt and to a lesser extent on the shirtless overwatch.

Also, the shackles are a very specific design. They aren't just chains. Both control how the vortigaunt fires its lightning and both keep them docile. they would need to be extremely similar in terms of technology

The other two things are entirely biological, which would mean that the combine would need to enslave them.

Without a nihilanth, they lose the teleports. Without any technological equivalent, that's why they need the knowledge Eli and Mossman have. And without control of Xen, they lose control of the other. Also, they have no agrunts to use these weapons even if they did want them.

Why go out of your way to give your soldiers bee-guns when there's apparently a big H&K factory right outside of town? :P

[Angry Lawyer]

So you support...*dun dun dunn!* the other side, Mecha?

Well, the Nihilanth was obviously fabricated, so someone had to have made him. But if the Combine had made him, they'd have had the teleport tech to implant in him.

-Angry Lawyer

[Mechagodzilla]

So you support...*dun dun dunn!* the other side, Mecha?
Nope, neither side. Both arguments are plausible, but both also lack conclusive evidence. From a narrative standpoint though, the combine controlling Xen in HL1 makes for a much more interesting story, I do lean towards it.Well, the Nihilanth was obviously fabricated, so someone had to have made him. But if the Combine had made him, they'd have had the teleport tech to implant in him.I don't think it was obvious that he was fabricated at all. Surgery, implants and maybe some sort of life support. But not entirely manufactured.

Nihilanth's teleportation powers were natural. The crystal in his head is very similar to the cones inside the controllers, who as far as I can tell, have no technological upgrades. It gave him the power to make portals in the same way the controllers made fire and the vortigaunts made lightning.

So that argument is actually sort-of the opposite. If the combine controlled Xen, they wouldn't have been able to steal the teleport 'technology' because it was stuck in Nihilanth's body.

[Angry Lawyer]

Damnit, you're one of the hardest people to argue against. But I'm glad you support neither side. In my personal opinion, having the Xenians controleld by the Combine makes for a less interesting story - it boils it down to just us versus the Combine, which control everything. I think it'd make a much more interesting plot if they'd never met, and when they did, sparks flew and Humanity found itself a new, unlikely ally.

And, judging from what the Combine can do, I'd say they could have at least cloned a Nihilanth. Or stored him somewhere safer.

-Angry Lawyer

[Laivasse]

Damnit, you're one of the hardest people to argue against. But I'm glad you support neither side. In my personal opinion, having the Xenians controleld by the Combine makes for a less interesting story - it boils it down to just us versus the Combine, which control everything. I think it'd make a much more interesting plot if they'd never met, and when they did, sparks flew and Humanity found itself a new, unlikely ally.

That's exactly the way I see the story. For me, to have the Combine control everything extraterrestrial is just boring. Not everything has to be so linear.

[Jandor]

So that argument is actually sort-of the opposite. If the combine controlled Xen, they wouldn't have been able to steal the teleport 'technology' because it was stuck in Nihilanth's body.


Surely they could have made copies? plans? clones? replicas?

Also, there are teleports that arn't stuck in Nihilanths body.

That's exactly the way I see the story. For me, to have the Combine control everything extraterrestrial is just boring. Not everything has to be so linear.


I agree, having four diverse sides is more interesting than 3.

Humans.
Xen.
Combine.
Race-X. (Who I guess arn't coming back)

[Angry Lawyer]

Considering the size of the universe, and the number of dimensions alluded to, I wouldn't be surprised if there were an infinite number of intelligent, war-like races going head-to-head.

-Angry Lawyer

[Mechagodzilla]

Surely they could have made copies? plans? clones? replicas?
Also, there are teleports that arn't stuck in Nihilanths body.Now that you mention it, it is true that there were the tripod-shaped teleporters on xen. If the combine did control Xen, they would have access to them.

There isn't really any indication as to how they work though, except for the one that is powered by three Xen crystals. It is possible that those teleporters aren't the same type as the ones the combine wanted.
From what I've seen, they seem to be only a local system of transport, which could make them useless outside of Xen.

Or, it is possible that the combine tried to copy the design, but failed, and then lost contol of the teleporters once nihilanth died and G-man took over.

Whatever the case, only Nihilanth's brain and Black Mesa (well, and also race-x) appear to have the capacity for interplanetary transport within the same universe.

As for the quesion of why they didn't just clone Nihilanth, I've got no idea.

Also, if the combine did control Nihilanth' that wouldn't exactly stop them from being a seperate race.
Especially now that Nihilanth is dead, all the remaining vorts, grunts, gargs and controllers are off doing their own thing now. the Vorts joined the humans, and the rest presumably have gone into hiding in uninhabited areas of the world.

[Jandor]

There isn't really any indication as to how they work though, except for the one that is powered by three Xen crystals. It is possible that those teleporters aren't the same type as the ones the combine wanted.
From what I've seen, they seem to be only a local system of transport, which could make them useless outside of Xen.

Surely you can just move the crystals off of Xen and build a new teleport with them, as the humans do.

Anyway, I'm glad people don't see the Independant Xen theory as baseless, it has just as much supporting it as the Combine theory and makes use of points from Half Life 2 rather than Half Life, when it is highly likely the Combine where not even an idea then. Plus in my opinion it makes more sense and makes for a better story.

as Angry Lawyer said:

Tell me, which is more logical?

1: The Combine controlled Xen, and hid their tracks as much as possible, and neglected to use any form of the research that Xen provided.

2: They never met.


- Jandor

[Angry Lawyer]

Well, from what I've read in Raising the Bar, the way the Combine work is by sswallowing races up into their collective - I doubt they'd allow a subsection to have their own technology, art forms, and everything. They're super-efficient, and all of the good tech they take over is shared between everyone in the Combine, the rest probably discarded.

The Xenians are probably preparing vengeance. Alien races have a knack for doing that sort of thing.

-Angry Lawyer

[UndeadScottsman]

Tell me, which is more logical?

1: The Combine controlled Xen, and hid their tracks as much as possible,There's a difference between "hiding their tracks" and "no reason to leave all this perfectly good equipment lying around when we have the locals to perform everything that we want done here"

and neglected to use any form of the research that Xen provided.How do we know they didn't use anything from Xen? For all we know, right up until the Nihilanth bit the big one, the Combine regularly used Vorts as a frontline force; utlized genetic characteristics in various Synth, and even had Interdimension Xen teleportation (Again, that would be Xen-to-Other Dimension teleportation, not the Xen relay method developed at Black Mesa)

The question is; was there anything on Xen that the Combine felt was in any way superior to their current junk enough to totally supplant it?

2: They never met.

I pick 2.

-Angry Lawyer
Again, I find it more unlikely that there's an enslaved race we fight in the first game, FREE in the first game (As we find out in HL2), and then a race of enslavers attacks us shortly afterwards and they have nothing to do with one another. This is especially less likely what with the Borderworld being what it is, and how, seemingly, the center of the enslaved Hivemind has had extensive surgical and cybernetic augmentation, which fits the Combine's MO to a T.).... Heh.. MOT

And, judging from what the Combine can do, I'd say they could have at least cloned a Nihilanth. Or stored him somewhere safer. The Nihilanth was pretty damn safe, what with being stored in a windowless, doorless chamber in the middle of who knows where and with only teleportation as a means to access him. How was anybody supposed to guess that Freeman, who's buddies at Black Mesa, fell by the hundreds to the Nihilanth and the rest of Xen's forces, would be able to take him out 1on1? Letting one human slip into your chamber so you can squash the nusicence once and for all like you've done to several of his HEV suited buddies isn't actually that stupid of an idea. On the surface at least. :)

As for cloning a Nihilanth; we have absolutly no idea how the heck the Nihilanth was created in the first place. Is he a mutant? Is he a natural evolution of the vort hivemind? (The vorts don't seem to be missing him). Does he even have DNA like humans do? There doesn't seem to be any "parent" Nihilanth's around. Does he start off as a child or does he grow to full maturity instantly. If he does start off as a child, can he ever retake control of the Hivemind or do it in any decent ammount of time? Can it retake control of the hivemind now that the Vorts are free? Does the crystal in his head have to be inserted at a certain time? It could be quite possible that created a new Nihilanth is not possible; or at least beyond the Combine's abilities for the time being.

That's exactly the way I see the story. For me, to have the Combine control everything extraterrestrial is just boring. Not everything has to be so linear.Who said they controlled EVERYTHING extraterrestrial. (Extra-dimensional, actually, since I doubt they've been to our universe before). The residents of the Borderworld I would expect to have been one of the first races to fall to the Combine; being that it's metaphorically "in the middle" of all the dimensions. I highly doubt the Combine have been to EVERY dimension EVER, they've probably taken down quite a few though. Besides, it makes the Combine a bit more menacing, IMO, if we can see evidence of their previous work. Make them seem like a menace to more than just Earth.

I agree, having four diverse sides is more interesting than 3.

Humans.
Xen.
Combine.
Race-X. (Who I guess arn't coming back)
There's still four sides in that scenerio; just two of 'em are working together in Half-Life and two of 'em are working together in Half-Life 2. :)

Well, from what I've read in Raising the Bar, the way the Combine work is by sswallowing races up into their collective
Again, by controlling the Nihilanth the Combine have control over all of Xen and therefore it is part of their Empire. The Xen race is already suited to controlling Xen better than the Combine (Though I wouldn't go so far as to say that the Alien Grunts aren't being created due to Combine influence), and probably don't have much else to offer being all tied to the Hivemind. Xen and the Xen race are worth more to the Combine as a buffer zone and early warning system than a bunch of smoldering ash.

[Jandor]

Nihilanth makes a few quotes about being a slave and such, he also has a rocket shoved up his arse. That is the argument for the Combine being on Xen. (all this from Half Life 1)

The Combine do not know how to teleport one man quickly and cheaply, they do not have local teleportation and no reference is made to Xen by anyone associated with the Combine. That is the argument for the Combine not being on Xen. (all this from Half Life 2)

- Jandor

[UndeadScottsman]

Nihilanth makes a few quotes about being a slave and such, he also has a rocket shoved up his arse. That is the argument for the Combine being on Xen. (all this from Half Life 1)Do you REALLY think Valve would put all the slave stuff into Half-Life 1, make a race of slavers in Half-Life 2 and not go "Didn't we just DO this plot?" And it's really not that hard for the Combine to have started out as a simple one line "Cyborg aliens who enslaved the Nihilanth" blurb way back in the development of Half-Life 1 and got fleshed out during Half-Life 2's developement when Valve decided to go that direction. (Laidlaw probably has had a lot of backstory fleshed out since before Half-Life was even released; he IS a writer after all; that's his job.)

The Combine do not know how to teleport one man quickly and cheaply,Either that or they do and just had no reason to do so in Half-Life 2. We only saw two combine teleporters, after all. Without the relay tech, Xen's teleportation just go from Earth to Xen. Kind of useless for what the Combine were doing aside from getting Transhuman troops offworld (Which we never saw)

they do not have local teleportationWhich Xen didn't have either; You'd think they would be able to tap into the Vort Hivemind or something if Xen DID have relay teleportation.

and no reference is made to Xen by anyone associated with the Combine.If no comment was made about Xen by Mossman that one time, would you state that Xen just plainly didn't exist? Regardless, there's no mention made of the slaves in the Citidel being human, no verbal mention made of the portal storms, no mention made of why the Combine are here, no mention made of if the Combine are terraforming Earth or just being bad for the ecology. No mention made of why the Vorts are fighting with us. No mention made of what's the deal with the "City" system the Combine have set up. No mention made of who the Combine are. No mention made of what they plan to do with Earth. Half-Life 2 doesn't mention a LOT of things because Half-Life 2 doesn't deal with exposition for the sake of exposition. To it's detriment, IMO. (But that's an argument for another thread. :D)

[Laivasse]

If no comment was made about Xen by Mossman that one time, would you state that Xen just plainly didn't exist? Regardless, there's no mention made of the slaves in the Citidel being human, no verbal mention made of the portal storms, no mention made of why the Combine are here, no mention made of if the Combine are terraforming Earth or just being bad for the ecology. No mention made of why the Vorts are fighting with us. No mention made of what's the deal with the "City" system the Combine have set up. No mention made of who the Combine are. No mention made of what they plan to do with Earth. Half-Life 2 doesn't mention a LOT of things because Half-Life 2 doesn't deal with exposition for the sake of exposition.

But that's not to say we should assume for assumption's sake either... :rolleyes:

[UndeadScottsman]

But that's not to say we should assume for assumption's sake either... :rolleyes:
Did I ever say it was? I was making the point that "no reference is made to Xen by anyone associated with the Combine." is a rather silly argument considering that Half-Life 2 has a number of issues and concepts in the game that no one even so much as mentions.

[Laivasse]

Did I ever say it was? I was making the point that "no reference is made to Xen by anyone associated with the Combine." is a rather silly argument considering that Half-Life 2 has a number of issues and concepts in the game that no one even so much as mentions.

There is little in HL2 that you can't make an educated guess at with the aid of a little reference to events in game, or maybe RtB if you're really pushed. Nothing in the story of HL2 requires you to apply a retroactive link, from another game - which is the type of logic you have to apply when you link the Combine to Xen.

You're trying to say that the assumption you're making about Combine and Xen is the type of assumption you can freely make all the time in HL2 when it's not. It's far vaguer, only forming a link when you sum up all the Combine's methods vaguely as "slavery" and then linking it to a quote containing the word "slaves" in the first game.

[UndeadScottsman]

There is little in HL2 that you can't make an educated guess at with the aid of a little reference to events in game, or maybe RtB if you're really pushed. Nothing in the story of HL2 requires you to apply a retroactive link, from another game - which is the type of logic you have to apply when you link the Combine to Xen. Wait, what? This invalidates a possible retroactive link why? Seriously, what are you arguing here? That retroactive links aren't valid unless they get directly referenced in the next game, even if the game in question doesn't even bother to explain half of the NEW concepts it brings up?

Again, you have Valve putting all this stuff about Alien Slaves and "We are slaves..." into the first game, slapping some cybernetics onto the Nihilanth and then in the next game introduce a race of aliens that take control of other cultures using cybenetics. No matter how much of an argument you bring up, there is still the fact that either Valve is intentionally trying to be misleading, didn't realize they were repeating similar elements, or the two scenerio's are linked together. We have no reason to think they're being misleading at this time, and I seriously Laidlaw would have missed something like this. Do you honestly think it's a coincidence?

You're trying to say that the assumption you're making about Combine and Xen is the type of assumption you can freely make all the time in HL2 when it's not.No, actually, I am not. Here is what I specificly said "I was making the point that "no reference is made to Xen by anyone associated with the Combine." is a rather silly argument considering that Half-Life 2 has a number of issues and concepts in the game that no one even so much as mentions."

Never did I mention anything about assumptions. I was making the point that Half-Life 2 fails to explain a TON of concepts, so nobody in the game talking about something isn't really good evidence to prove it doesn't exist. Someone in the Combine saying "What the hell is Xen?" would be evidence in favor of the link not existing. Mossman saying something like "There was difficulty in getting the Combine teleporters to target Xen; they didn't even know it existed until they encounted us!" would be prove the link doesn't exist. Nobody talking about it... Is just nobody talking about it. It's not a point in favor of either side.

It's far vaguer, only forming a link when you sum up all the Combine's methods vaguely and then linking it to a quote containing the word "slaves" in the first game."Combine's methods vaguely as "slavery"" <- What else would you call it? What the Combine do is an extremly BLATENT concept of slavery. They strip away the freedom of those cultures that they conquer and find usefull and force them to serve the Combine against their will. (And they do this using cybernetics) What else would you call it? What else could it possibly look like to the one having this done to them?

[Laivasse]

Wait, what? This invalidates a possible retroactive link why? Seriously, what are you arguing here? That retroactive links aren't valid unless they get directly referenced in the next game, even if the game in question doesn't even bother to explain half of the NEW concepts it brings up?

...

Here is what I specificly said "I was making the point that "no reference is made to Xen by anyone associated with the Combine." is a rather silly argument considering that Half-Life 2 has a number of issues and concepts in the game that no one even so much as mentions."

Never did I mention anything about assumptions. I was making the point that Half-Life 2 fails to explain a TON of concepts, so nobody in the game talking about something isn't really good evidence to prove it doesn't exist. Someone in the Combine saying "What the hell is Xen?" would be evidence in favor of the link not existing. Mossman saying something like "There was difficulty in getting the Combine teleporters to target Xen; they didn't even know it existed until they encounted us!" would be prove the link doesn't exist. Nobody talking about it... Is just nobody talking about it. It's not a point in favor of either side.

Where have I said anything was invalid? You made a comparison (implicit or not): someone mentioned the absence of references to Combine on Xen in HL2 and you brought up lots of examples of things in HL2 which are not spelt out for you, although they are always hinted, heavily or very subtly (something you glossed over). In making that comparison you're saying that guessing about concepts in HL2 from things they are directly linked to in HL2, is the same as guessing about stuff in HL1 from things in HL2 which are highly subjective. Never did I say it was invalid - but it it is obviously much more tenuous. "Far vaguer", is what I did say.


No matter how much of an argument you bring up, there is still the fact that either Valve is intentionally trying to be misleading, didn't realize they were repeating similar elements, or the two scenerio's are linked together. We have no reason to think they're being misleading at this time, and I seriously Laidlaw would have missed something like this. Do you honestly think it's a coincidence?

...

"Combine's methods vaguely as "slavery"" <- What else would you call it? What the Combine do is an extremly BLATENT concept of slavery. They strip away the freedom of those cultures that they conquer and find usefull and force them to serve the Combine against their will. (And they do this using cybernetics) What else would you call it? What else could it possibly look like to the one having this done to them?

That "repeating similar elements" bit is the key - that's totally subjective. You seem to think they're similar. Many others think it isn't at all.

Rather than simply "slavery", the Combine's method in HL2 can be more accurately summed up by "assimilation/extermination" in my opinion. Human's don't serve the Combine against their will - they are stripped of their will (again, no "we are slaves" from the Overwatch - they don't seem to know or care) and made into something that fits the Combine's purpose better - transhumans or stalkers. Further evidence is seen in the synth. The average human looks set to be culled (no reproduction, + Breen's speech at Nova Prospekt). The Combine don't just want people to shine their boots.

On Xen, there is no evidence of extermination, no modification of species, and no assimilation into the Combine for usage elsewhere. Does this seriously offer up a template that you can point to and say, "ah, that's what the Combine do!"? In a post long past you said "don't put words in my mouth", but this is exactly what you're doing in fact - pointing to a subjective similarity between the 2 concepts, and using that to override all other argument.

[UndeadScottsman]

Where have I said anything was invalid?I quite frankly couldn't figure out what the hell you were trying to say, nor how it was relevent to the conversation. I never said that the lack of mention of several things in Half-Life 2 proves the Xen-Combine theory, ergo I couldn't figure why you'd be arguing about it unless you were still trying to use the lack of the mention as invalidation for the theory. I seriously couldn't see what you were trying to argue.

You made a comparison (implicit or not): someone mentioned the absence of references to Combine on Xen in HL2 and you brought up lots of examples of things in HL2 which are not spelt out for you, although they are always hinted, heavily or very subtly (something you glossed over). In making that comparison you're saying that guessing about concepts in HL2 from things they are directly linked to in HL2, is the same as guessing about stuff in HL1 from things in HL2 which are highly subjective. Never did I say it was invalid - but it it is obviously much more tenuous. "Far vaguer", is what I did say.The depth of vagueness (Some things were pretty vague too: see the Stalkers; what the combine are doing to earth; the reasoning behind the City setup.. All things that are, IMO, are more vague than the Xen-Combine connection) is irrelevant to the fact that just because there's no direct mention doesn't mean it doesn't exist WHICH IS THE POINT I'M TRYING TO MAKE. This ENTIRE conversation thread started when Jandor said "no reference is made to Xen by anyone associated with the Combine," to which I was trying to point out that Half-Life 2 doesn't mention a lot of things; that doesn't invalidate them though. Good grief, how many times do I have to say that?

IT'S NOT A POINT IN FAVOR OF EITHER SIDE!

I am NOT saying that because in HL2 things weren't mentioned but exist, therefore the Xen-Combine connection must exist. I'm saying that because in HL2 things weren't mentioned but exist therefore just because something isn't mentioned doesn't mean it DOESN'T exist. IT MEANS IT WASN'T MENTIONED. That's the entire point here. No secret message; no hidden meaning. No behind-the-door play to prove the theory.

Jeeze, way to make a mountain out of a molehill. Are we done with that? Can we move on? Alrighty then.

That "repeating similar elements" bit is the key - that's totally subjective. You seem to think they're similar. Many others think it isn't at all.So your saying that the Combine gaining control of mankind, assimilating them through cybernetics, due to their usefulness as slaves and soldiers; and the theory that the Combine gaining control of the Xen race, assimilating them through cybernetics, due to their usefulness in maintaining the Borderworld aren't similar? That there can be no coorelation between the two?

Humans are Vorts are two very different races on different worlds. Different tactics to enslave, different reasons to enslave and different uses for the enslaved are rather irrelevant to the basic correlation, which is too coincidental for me to outright ignore. The differences can be reasoned out; but I can only say the correlations are coincidental; which I don't believe Valve would do.

Rather than simply "slavery", the Combine's method in HL2 can be more accurately summed up by "assimilation/extermination" in my opinion. Human's don't serve the Combine against their will - they are stripped of their will (again, no "we are slaves" from the Overwatch - they don't seem to know or care) and made into something that fits the Combine's purpose better - transhumans or stalkers.So you basically refuse the possibility that anyone who was "assimilated," no matter how much of their faculties remain, would not consider being forced against their will (And overriding one's will like you believe the Combine do to humans is a way of forcing a person to go against their will, make no mistake) to be slavery? You don't have to be able to care about it to be able to make the connection.

It’s likely Combine probably use cybernetics to keep the Overwatch in check; but we don't know to what extent of their faculties remain. Additionally, the Nihilanth isn't an Overwatch soldier. I highly doubt the Combine would want to go lobotomizing the supposed center of the Hivemind, especially since he's pretty unique and they can't really experiment too much to find out what bit of grey does what. Controlling him basically turns the entire Vort race into Stalkers; they wouldn't want to screw that up because it means losing a very valuable resource.

Further evidence is seen in the synth. The average human looks set to be culled (no reproduction, + Breen's speech at Nova Prospekt). The Combine don't just want people to shine their boots.If Humankind would prove most useful to the Combine by running naked through the forest, picking cherries, what do you think the Combine would do with us? Look at the logic (Beyond my silly scenerio, of course :D). Humans serve a purpose as slaves and soldiers to be used where the Combine sees fit. The Vorts serve a purpose as slaves to be used where the Combine sees fit. In case A, that would be where ever the Combine need them; in case B it would also be where ever the Combine need them, which would primarily be Xen where they are well adapted to.

On Xen, there is no evidence of extermination, no modification of species, and no assimilation into the Combine for usage elsewhere. Does this seriously offer up a template that you can point to and say, "ah, that's what the Combine do!"?
-No Extermination
The Combine aren't going to arbitrarily spend the energy and resources to "exterminate" unless it suited their purposes. Wouldn't you agree? Obviously they haven't taken care of the little Ant Lion problem on Earth. It's most likely just not worth the effort.
-No Modification
See: Nihilanth, who would logically be the center of the hive mind. Saves time and energy in controlling the Nihilanth rather than converting the Vorts one by one. Additionally, it’s quite possible there are platoons of Vort super soldiers (Possibly even the Alien Grunts) fighting for the Combine out there at one point in time and possibly still fighting for them. We sure as heck don't know. They'd have to have been brought to Earth in order for us to see them, and we haven't single a SINGLE Combine-controlled alien. Just converted Humans, enslaved Vorts and a bunch of Synth on Earth. Makes me wonder just what exactly they used to win the seven hour war. :)

Remember, with the Nihilanth under their control, the entire population of Vorts essentially become Stalkers for the Combine; no modification required.
-No usage elsewhere
We've only seen Earth, and on Earth they do use Vorts as slaves (Matter of fact, we haven't seen a single vort-in-combine armour even though we know they have capture and control of several of them.)

In a post long past you said "don't put words in my mouth", but this is exactly what you're doing in fact - pointing to a subjective similarity between the 2 concepts, and using that to override all other argument.Then what are YOU doing, exactly? Using your own opinion to try and prove a theory has no merit? I have never said that my opinion is the only way to look at it; in fact if we're going to bring up old quotes, I said multiple times that I could very well be wrong. Right now I’ve been trying to demonstrate why it’s logical to me since we apparently agreed that we’re not going to convince each other. (Are we even arguing against each other anymore? Or are we just be arguing for the "sanctity" of our respective theories :D)

This whole secondary argument started when Jandor said, jokingly, that I was "still wrong :)" to which I, intending to be in the same humour, replied "No one has proven that it's wrong; nor has there been arguement against the theory can't be counter-argued using simple logic. :)". It was pretty much a "I know you are but what am I" gesture of stalemate, but then people started arguing with it, so I defended it. Further arguments popped up and I argued them. Ultimatly, it still stands and I have been pointing out that it still stands. No one has revealed a smoking gun. Remember I've already agreed it might be wrong; but there's currently nothing that proves that nor, IMO, (Keyword there, OPINION) anything that really offers strong evidence against the theory.

I can agree that it might be wrong. Can you agree that it might be right? If so I think that's about as far as we can get.

[Samon]

This is not the thread for this

Go here: http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1418794#post1418794


:P

[Angry Lawyer]

I can agree that it might be wrong. Can you agree that it might be right? If so I think that's about as far as we can get.


We have a winner.

-Angry Lawyer

[Laivasse]

I can agree that it might be wrong. Can you agree that it might be right? If so I think that's about as far as we can get.

I've never said otherwise. There are different degrees of "might" though :p

[ríomhaire]

Idea: a thread where we can post our entire theories of what the hell is going on without any debate that should be stickied.
Edit: in the rumours and spec forum.

[Angry Lawyer]

With the amount that gets posted about it, perhaps there should be an entire board section. Call it the "Angry Lawyer is right" category. Or not.

-Angry Lawyer

[ríomhaire]

Even though you make very intelligent arguements AL you can be a bit childish sometimes.

[Angry Lawyer]

Kid, you've got to know I'm being facetious most of the time. I don't expect it to actually be called that. Lighten up.

-Angry Lawyer

[Samon]

He's only joking, I mean, what's a topical debate without some humour? :)

[OvA]

Heh. you three make up like 40% of all posts on this board

[Angry Lawyer]

It's true, but that's because, being a lawyer, I love to argue a point.

-Angry Lawyer

[ríomhaire]

It's true, but that's because, being a lawyer, I love to argue a point.

-Angry Lawyer
I thought you were an accountant or something.

[Jandor]

I thought you were an accountant or something.

Shush, you'll give it away.

[Samon]

Slander! Slander!

[jimmyjam]

libel.

:)

[RecklessSneak]

As long as there are no trips to Xen i'm happy. The environment was very badly done in Half Life.

[Samon]

As long as there are no trips to Xen i'm happy. The environment was very badly done in Half Life.

Doesn't mean they can't be improved.

[pomegranate]

I really liked Xen, I thought it was suitably spooky and v atmospheric... what would you have done differently, Reckless?

[Samon]

I really liked Xen, I thought it was suitably spooky and v atmospheric... what would you have done differently, Reckless?

I thought the art design was terrific, it is just the jumping sections were badly executed - which is the common argument and is what I believe Reckless is referring too.

[Salad22]

who da **** is adrian??? :dozey:

[pomegranate]

I don't think I've ever seen a worse reason to resurrect a dormant thread.
Go to planethalflife.com and do some background reading into Half-Life. Better yet, play Half-Life and its wonderful expansion packs.

[Dr. Freeman]

who da **** is adrian??? :dozey:

the hero of Opposing Force.
now don't ask what Opposing Force is...it will make the baby jesus cry :|

[Salad22]

the hero of Opposing Force.
now don't ask what Opposing Force is...it will make the baby jesus cry :|

nah don't worry I know what Opposing Force is. It's just that I never have play it.

[pomegranate]

You don't come here very often, do you?

[Skaadi]

You don't come here very often, do you?


I come here everyday. And as the days go buy I realise that on this website we have less and less to talk about.......... until Aftermath......

[iMMuNiTy]

Well a 7-hour war would work, onlyas an EP... And still it'd be a bit stupid playing just to lose in the end. How fun it is to wipe out APCs, helicopters and striders just to know all your efforts led to loss?

Now for Adrian... I don't know, he really doesn't quite fit in the story. I always thought Op4 was mainly there to introduce the friendly grunts and BMRF's future (...nuked). I never even thought that there's such a fuss online that Adrian fits as a hero in Half-Life's storyline.

The only place and time he'd fit in would be the 7-hour war, used by G-Man to do a task, to convince G-Man's employers that Adrian might serve them well, but when Shepherd screws up, G-Man is authorised to... erase Adrian. Or, for those who wish a happy ending, he does his task and put into stasis yet again. Really, Adrian can't participate in Half-Life 2's timeline, because he simply wouldn't fit in the story unless it'd be modified, or with gay elements added.

[The One Free Man]

I'd think it would be kool if there was a link between Adrian and Gordon, like some twist or somethin

[Absinthe]

Well a 7-hour war would work, onlyas an EP... And still it'd be a bit stupid playing just to lose in the end. How fun it is to wipe out APCs, helicopters and striders just to know all your efforts led to loss?

I actually think that's what makes it interesting.

It's not like anti-climaxes would be a first for the series. You eventually attempt to save the world at the end of HL1 only to have the Combine invade and nearly whipe out humanity.

[iMMuNiTy]

I actually think that's what makes it interesting.

It's not like anti-climaxes would be a first for the series. You eventually attempt to save the world at the end of HL1 only to have the Combine invade and nearly whipe out humanity.Unless we'd play as Adrian, or one of the rebel/army guys. Just to show to what led Gordon's actions in HL1. The first shelling, and all hell breaks lose, headcrab pods rain down from the sky, striders close in on you... And you have a choice. Battle to death, trying to fight them all off, or retreat. VALVe, if they are to create such an EP, must make it look like humanity has no chance of winning. Otherwise, a one army man who takes down half of Combine's synths, and yet the humanity loses in 7 hours? Now Adrian, with the slight help of G-Man, now that's a questionable thing. :)

I'm not a big fan of Adrian, to be honest, I didn't even play Opposing Force; I've read its storyline on the internet. He really doesn't fit into Half-Life 2's storyline. Not to mention that VALVe became cocky somewhat. They announced freely, that all EPs will be made by them, and they also stated that no EPs which will feature a view from another person will be made. Add that up and you get no Adrian, and no 7 hour war, unless Gordon travels to the past, to 7 hour war, to stop the Combine from invading. Ewww.

[Samon]

Unless we'd play as Adrian, or one of the rebel/army guys. Just to show to what led Gordon's actions in HL1. The first shelling, and all hell breaks lose, headcrab pods rain down from the sky, striders close in on you... And you have a choice. Battle to death, trying to fight them all off, or retreat. VALVe, if they are to create such an EP, must make it look like humanity has no chance of winning. Otherwise, a one army man who takes down half of Combine's synths, and yet the humanity loses in 7 hours? Now Adrian, with the slight help of G-Man, now that's a questionable thing. :)

I'm not a big fan of Adrian, to be honest, I didn't even play Opposing Force; I've read its storyline on the internet. He really doesn't fit into Half-Life 2's storyline. Not to mention that VALVe became cocky somewhat. They announced freely, that all EPs will be made by them, and they also stated that no EPs which will feature a view from another person will be made. Add that up and you get no Adrian, and no 7 hour war, unless Gordon travels to the past, to 7 hour war, to stop the Combine from invading. Ewww.


I don't see how thats cocky, and no, they didn't say it would be viewed from all new perspectives they just said they would be doing them themselves. Which is perfectly reasonable. And yeah, actually, there most likley will be a 7-hour war game. Marc Laidlaw said in a recent interview in PC GAMER that the reason they didn't show things in HL2 such as the 7-hour war, is because its possible that a few years down the line they'll be able to put you through that experience...why show the 7-hour war when you could play it. Hinting at a 7-Hour war. And you don't need Adrian to be in it either.

They said nothing about what perspective they'd be veiwed from and what scenario's they would include. Fals information spreader Immunity :p

[iMMuNiTy]

I don't see how thats cocky, and no, they didn't say it would be viewed from all new perspectives they just said they would be doing them themselves. Which is perfectly reasonable. And yeah, actually, there most likley will be a 7-hour war game. Marc Laidlaw said in a recent interview in PC GAMER that the reason they didn't show things in HL2 such as the 7-hour war, is because its possible that a few years down the line they'll be able to put you through that experience...why show the 7-hour war when you could play it. Hinting at a 7-Hour war. And you don't need Adrian to be in it either.

They said nothing about what perspective they'd be veiwed from and what scenario's they would include. Fals information spreader Immunity :pVALVe is cocky, because they don't share much info. And they have stated that they'll make all EPs now in-house at VALVe, I don't see why wouldn't they let others create expansion packs, as well. We'd have twice as much EPs. They want everything for themselves! ;)

It was mentioned in other forums, I can't quite rmemeber in which because it was in last year's December, that VALVe will only feature EPs in which you're Gordon. Then a rumour of playing as Alyx has dispersed that, so it's really old news, nothing surprising that things changed. I don't check VALVe's news everyday :)

And I didn't said you had to be Adrian in the 7-hour war. However it'd satisfy the majority of players, since it wouldn't be all that bad to play as Adrian to those who rant about him not fitting in, and satisfy those who want him in the game. I, for example, would preffer to play simply as a citizen who now arms himself to survive, or an army guy. However I wouldn't b!tch about if I'd play as Adrian. IF there'll be such an EP, which I seriously doubt. Unless VALVe lacks on storylines for future EPs, which is unlikely.

[Samon]

VALVe is cocky, because they don't share much info. And they have stated that they'll make all EPs now in-house at VALVe, I don't see why wouldn't they let others create expansion packs, as well. We'd have twice as much EPs. They want everything for themselves! ;)

That isn't being cocky, thats being smart :P . And yes, that is what I said, I told you Valve would be making them in-house. I didn't say otherwise :p

They don't want everything for themselves, its their game, their property and they want to tell the stories how they see it. It is ultimatley the best way to do it.


It was mentioned in other forums, I can't quite rmemeber in which because it was in last year's December, that VALVe will only feature EPs in which you're Gordon. Then a rumour of playing as Alyx has dispersed that, so it's really old news, nothing surprising that things changed. I don't check VALVe's news everyday :)

Moral of the story, don't listen to random forum postson forums you don't know.


And I didn't said you had to be Adrian in the 7-hour war. However it'd satisfy the majority of players, since it wouldn't be all that bad to play as Adrian to those who rant about him not fitting in, and satisfy those who want him in the game. I, for example, would preffer to play simply as a citizen who now arms himself to survive, or an army guy. However I wouldn't b!tch about if I'd play as Adrian. IF there'll be such an EP, which I seriously doubt. Unless VALVe lacks on storylines for future EPs, which is unlikely.

I have absolutle confidence we will be getting a game based on the 7-hour war. It would satisfy a number of players who need gaps filling in, it would fill in some more gaps and show people how the combine came to Earth and all in all it would be absolutley awesome. Not only that, Marc Laidlaw hinted at it.

There is alot Valve wish to tell, and that I believe is one of them.

[iMMuNiTy]

To avoid the results which are displayed in your sig, I'd better keep quiet. Though I could continue flaming. :p

[Samon]

Because I'm right and your wrong, I'm big your small and theres nothing you can do about it. :flame:



:bounce:

[iMMuNiTy]

Because I'm right and your wrong, I'm big your small and theres nothing you can do about it. :flame:



:bounce:You're right about the big-small bit. Everything else... Is bullsh!t. :p

P.S. Don't take this seriously...

[Samon]

:laugh:

I don't take anything on this forum seriously :laugh:

[iMMuNiTy]

:laugh:

I don't take anything on this forum seriously :laugh:Some do. Have to keep my back safe! I see you.... And you! -> :imu:

Okay, now let's quit chatting, shall we?

[Salad22]

LoL?! Is this Samon and iMMuNiTy's private threat?

[iMMuNiTy]

LoL?! Is this Samon and iMMuNiTy's private threat?Why'd you bump an old thread? A dead one at that.

[RaBiD WeAzEL]

Wow.... This is a big, old thread....

However, I never posted back when it was alive, but...

If you need a real reason for why gman would send Adrian in would be to protect Breen. How else would Breen have survived?

Either you are sent in not knowing why, just that gman put you there, and then you kill a combine synth or whatever that turns out would've killed Breen w/o you; or g-man sends you in knowing that you must defend Breen...

I think that that would be a worthy cause to send Adrian in... I mean... Adrian's whole existance in the original HL was to terminate Gordon, along with the rest of the soldiers (from what I understand), so it's not really like he should be helping out the resistance or Gordon...

[Samon]

What are you on about? Save Breen? Eh? You mean Breen surviving Black Mesa? He probably escaped just before the resonance cascade.

Why shouldn't he help the resistance, just because he was doing his job in Opposing force, doesn't mean he is a bad person.

And don't. Go. Bumping. Threads.