Free Health care

[The Monkey]

Yes, I know, there has been threads like this before. But I did not feel like dragging up an old thread, and besides, I want to make this from an international perspective, and not just from an american.

So, would you like free health care to all, to let the taxes pay for the care? Or would you prefer the american motto; every man for himself?

Personally, I do think that all health care should be 100% free, and if high taxes is required to pay it, then so be it! In Sweden most of the health care is free, although sometimes they add charges for transport etc. The very thought that your amount of money should decide the quality of your treatment is sickening to me.

Your thoughts?

[Bodacious]

The poll is slanted to a left wing bias.

There should be another option. Something along the lines of, "A welfare system should take care of the needy and ultimatly the system should encourage individuals to seek out means to provide for themselves instead of encouraging a perpetual welfare state."


I would love to have free health care. I would quit my job and do nothing all day, living on welfare checks or flipping burgers 20 some hours a week. Life would be sweet.

As far as america goes, expanding government in this manner is a bad thing, I think. It would encourage laziness and be one step closer to America being socialist.

[ALEXDJ]

i wounder, who is that one guy who thinks we should pay for the health

[ALEXDJ]

The poll is slanted to a left wing bias.

I would love to have free health care. I would quit my job and do nothing all day, living on welfare checks or flipping burgers 20 some hours a week. Life would be sweet.

It would encourage laziness and be one step closer to America being socialist.

why would you get a welfare check?

if health care is free, it doesn't mean that you will get a check.

start making sence

[Bodacious]

i wounder, who is that one guy who thinks we should pay for the health


I did. People pay for their own healthcare in America every day, how am I wrong? It has been that way for hundreds of years.

[Bodacious]

why would you get a welfare check?

if health care is free, it doesn't mean that you will get a check.

start making sence


No crap I wouldn't get a check for healthcare. I would get a welfare check if I quit my job and didn't do anything productive all day long.

Start thinking and I bet what I say will start making sense.

[^Ben]

Just a quick Q for the Americans, how much do you pay for your health care?

And do you have to pay everytime you visit a doctor?

Personally I think all health care should be free and it will not encourage laziness.

[ALEXDJ]

I did. People pay for their own healthcare in America every day, how am I wrong? It has been that way for hundreds of years.
you are not wrong, yes people have been paying for their healthcare in America for a long time, but outside of US, in most places, gov. has been paying for the health care with tax money.

wouldn't you like the same in US, where you don't have to drop couple thousands when u break a finger

personally, i think, US health care is in horrible shape, doctors are greedy drug sellers, insurence companies are way out of line

[ALEXDJ]

Just a quick Q for the Americans, how much do you pay for your health care?

And do you have to pay everytime you visit a doctor?

Personally I think all health care should be free and it will not encourage laziness.

yes, you pay for every single thing

[ALEXDJ]

No crap I wouldn't get a check for healthcare. I would get a welfare check if I quit my job and didn't do anything productive all day long.

Start thinking and I bet what I say will start making sense.

ok, but what does that have to do with health care, you can get a check right now, we don't have to change anyting for that

[The Monkey]

I think that the welfare in Sweden is about $1700 /month. You can live with that, but not more. You can only buy what you need, and nothing more. Nobody wants to life of social allowance, so they really want a job.
Bodacious: Do you think it's right that rich people get a better treatment that poor people?

[The Mullinator]

Free health-care does not lead to a welfare state at all. You still need to get a home, get food, pay taxes, etc. Living off of welfare will not give you enough money to be happy at all. Almost everyone on welfare wants to have a proper job.

At least thats how it is in Canada with free health care. Even the rich like the idea of free health care up here, the only reason they also want a private system is because the free health care right has become quite slow and in need of restructuring.

[gh0st]

I think that the welfare in Sweden is about $1700 /month. You can live with that, but not more. You can only buy what you need, and nothing more. Nobody wants to life of social allowance, so they really want a job.
Bodacious: Do you think it's right that rich people get a better treatment that poor people?
1700 DOLLARS A MONTH?! Jesus. Thats what you get for you super high taxes. Thing is, I'm happy with what we have in America. I dont have to wait six months for basic medical help, and my employer pays most of my medical fees. The rest I work off myself, because I'm not a slacker lazy leech piece of crap.

[^Ben]

How much is it?

I think the problem with the American system in place at the moment is(i've seen this with my own eyes) someone gets something small wrong with them, and is reluctant to-go to the doctor because of costs etc, and it ends up getting much worse.

Now where I live UK, I had to get a quick checkup, so I popped into a General Practice(dunno what you call them in the US, it's like a local mini hospital for general stuff) on thursday booked an appointment for monday because my normal doctor was on holiday, I come in on monday wait for 5 minutes and only need about 5 minutes of the doctors time.

This possibly has prevented much worse implications down the road that I might not have gone to get checked out if I would of had to pay.

And I don't suddenly get the urge to live off social because of that.

gh0st theres a reason why Sweeden is like the second best place in the world to live standard of living wise.

[Bodacious]

Just a quick Q for the Americans, how much do you pay for your health care?

And do you have to pay everytime you visit a doctor?

Personally I think all health care should be free and it will not encourage laziness.


Depends on your deductable and your health care providor. If I made a doctors appointment I might pay $40. I split my thumb open and the hospital would have charged me $500 but I paid $130 i think it was.

I don't pay anything for my insurance, my employer does.

[gh0st]

gh0st theres a reason why Sweeden is like the second best place in the world to live standard of living wise.
Yeah theres a lot of reasons for that. Part of it is your definition of best. I dont want half my paycheck going to the government. Enough goes to them already. The standard of living in America is as good as you want it to be, its not handed to you as a result of someone elses work. The socialist scandinavian utopias arent all they are cracked up to be.

Edit: It costs me 10 dollars for a doctors visit, the rest is covered by my boss. Specialist operations or whatever would be partially covered by me, my boss, and the government.

[^Ben]

So your employer paid the $130?

[Bodacious]

you are not wrong, yes people have been paying for their healthcare in America for a long time, but outside of US, in most places, gov. has been paying for the health care with tax money.

wouldn't you like the same in US, where you don't have to drop couple thousands when u break a finger

I didn't and wouldn't. I dropped $130. No big deal, I received quality healthcare and din't have to wait long at all.

[^Ben]

What if someone can't pay the $130 for some reason?

[Bodacious]

ok, but what does that have to do with health care, you can get a check right now, we don't have to change anyting for that


If I had free healthcare I could quit my job and not have to worry. yah I wouldn't have the finer things, but i would get by and at most only work 20 hours a week.

As it stands, healthcare isn't free, so I work more than 20 hours week and don't qualify for food stamps.

[Bodacious]

I think that the welfare in Sweden is about $1700 /month. You can live with that, but not more. You can only buy what you need, and nothing more. Nobody wants to life of social allowance, so they really want a job.
Bodacious: Do you think it's right that rich people get a better treatment that poor people?


Rich people didn't wake up in the lap of luxury. They or their ancestors got there by hard work and determination. I think they should keep the money they earn and whatever else comes along with it.

Preferential treatment doesn't bother me.

[^Ben]

I think that's a daft way of thinking about it, "I can get free health care, i'm gonna quit my job"

The UK has a free health care system and has 1 of the lowest unemployment % in Europe, and please correct me if im wrong, it's close to America?

[Bodacious]

Free health-care does not lead to a welfare state at all. You still need to get a home, get food, pay taxes, etc. Living off of welfare will not give you enough money to be happy at all. Almost everyone on welfare wants to have a proper job.

Home = HUD, state provided housing
Food = Food stamps
Taxes = No income means no taxes and the lowest brackets actually get paid.


At least thats how it is in Canada with free health care. Even the rich like the idea of free health care up here, the only reason they also want a private system is because the free health care right has become quite slow and in need of restructuring.

That is a big reason for not having it here.

[CptStern]

55 million americans without healthcare would disagree with you

[Bodacious]

So your employer paid the $130?


No, I did, it was my portion of the bill to pay.

What if someone can't pay the $130 for some reason?

You call your providor and work out a payment plan.

In my wife's case she had 13k in bills when she got sick and the state paid all of it because she was jobless.

I think that's a daft way of thinking about it, "I can get free health care, i'm gonna quit my job"

The UK has a free health care system and has 1 of the lowest unemployment % in Europe, and please correct me if im wrong, it's close to America?

People have different needs. If I so desired I could get by with as little effort as possible and free healthcare would make it that much easier. It is just a matter of how much you desire to have in life.

More welfare encourages laziness like passing out condoms encourages promescuity. It is a big grey area that is very controversial.

[Bodacious]

55 million americans without healthcare would disagree with you

Another one of your "facts" ?

[The Monkey]

Yeah theres a lot of reasons for that. Part of it is your definition of best. I dont want half my paycheck going to the government. Enough goes to them already. The standard of living in America is as good as you want it to be, its not handed to you as a result of someone elses work. The socialist scandinavian utopias arent all they are cracked up to be.


If you got a good idea in the US, you really can do something with it. Sure, you can do that in Sweden too, but the politicians here want to lay all the responcebility on employers. I think that an employer with many employed pays 60% tax. What I'm trying to say is that you get things more easily done in the US, but but doing that you also have to sacrifice things in education, health care etc.

Just a question; how much parental leave do you got in the US? Here we got 1½ years after the baby was born, with 80% of salary paid.

[The Mullinator]

Home = HUD, state provided housing
Food = Food stamps
Taxes = No income means no taxes and the lowest brackets actually get paid.

Yet they still want an actual job. Very few people are happy living with the bear-minimum.

That is a big reason for not having it here.
Because our current system has grown flawed and in need of restructuring? Free health care is not naturally slower than private you know. Like I said, all Canada needs is for it to be restructured.

[CptStern]

Another one of your "facts" ?


well admittedly I misconstrued the numbers (took it from memory) ..it's actually 44 million and another 30 million that are "under-insured" ...more than a third of the population ..the 55 million figure is what is expected by the end of the decade

source (http://www.insureusa.org/plan/factsheets.htm)


oh btw people living under the poverty line: 35.9 million


btw I found this interesting:

"Lack of Insurance Among Non-Poor is Rising More Rapidly Than Among Poor"

[willyd]

I think basic care should be free, but I don't want to have to pay for all the obese people who choose to be obese (not saying ones who eat normally but just have something wrong) clogging up the system, or the cigarette smokers. But if a poor person has made an effort to keep his or her health, they should be cared to.


edit: actually the best idea is to give all the americans fake canadian IDs (yes from the chapelle show)

[jondy]

The socialist scandinavian utopias arent all they are cracked up to be.

How the hell would you know? :)

[gh0st]

How the hell would you know? :)
How the hell do you know what healthcare is like in the US? I can read and draw conclusoins myself, I dont have to live somewhere to understand that countries problems. Thats like saying I shouldnt study history since I wasent there.

[Gray Fox]

Why haven't you voted Ghost?

[gh0st]

Why haven't you voted Ghost?
I knew I forgot something :rolling:

[jondy]

How the hell do you know what healthcare is like in the US? I can read and draw conclusoins myself, I dont have to live somewhere to understand that countries problems. Thats like saying I shouldnt study history since I wasent there.

Your answer didn't sound particularly well-informed is all. Hence the smiley. > :) And slow down typing, it's worth its weight in legibility.

[gh0st]

Your answer didn't sound particularly well-informed is all. Hence the smiley. > :) And slow down typing, it's worth its weight in legibility.
Words I spelled incorrectly: 1
Typos made: 1

If you couldnt understand what I wrote because of that one typo, then you seriously should just kill yourself. Anything else you'd like to bitch about? By all means point out the grievous error of my ill-informed comment, I'd be happy to discuss it with you.

[jondy]

Seriously, gh0st, this isn't a pissing contest, we're both reasonable blokes - quit with the flaming. Seeing as your last post had nothing to do with the thread, I'll leave it at that.

[gh0st]

Seriously, gh0st, this isn't a pissing contest, we're both reasonable blokes - quit with the flaming. Seeing as your last post had nothing to do with the thread, I'll leave it at that.

Your answer didn't sound particularly well-informed is all. Hence the smiley. > And slow down typing, it's worth its weight in legibility.
Tell me please, how this personal insult against 1) my knowledge, and 2) my legibility, relate to this threads topic? I'm eager to know. You're just bitter than you've been caught in a rediculous statement and cant weasel your way out of it.

[^Ben]

Take a time out guys, your getting well too "into this" and it's gonna derail the whole thread, and has basically become the bane of the whole politics forum.

[RakuraiTenjin]

People who can take care of themselves should do so, simple as that. No nanny states or robbing Peter to pay Paul.

[Foxtrot]

Free healthcare is a terrible idea, I shouldn't have to fix the broken arm of the dumbass skater punk down the street because he was smoking pot and ran into a car, honestly he could die and I wouldn't care. Basic things should be provided for the people who need it most, but nothing more, and if they exceed a limit they are cut off (within reason).

[The Mullinator]

Free healthcare is a terrible idea, I shouldn't have to fix the broken arm of the dumbass skater punk down the street because he was smoking pot and ran into a car, honestly he could die and I wouldn't care. Basic things should be provided for the people who need it most, but nothing more, and if they exceed a limit they are cut off (within reason).
Ya but then you should consider that it would be evened out by you paying for the single mother who can't afford to pay for what her kids may required. It would be like charity. Then also consider that when you break your arm then it will be the parents of that skater kid who will be paying for your hospital bill.

[Foxtrot]

Ya but then you should consider that it would be evened out by you paying for the single mother who can't afford to pay for what her kids may required. It would be like charity. Then also consider that when you break your arm then it will be the parents of that skater kid who will be paying for your hospital bill.
I have never once broken anything in my body, or been injured in any way. The reason is is because I don't **** around, and I have common sense. I also don't play sports, but I don't think I should be paying for some jock to hurt himself over and over (it seems like 95% of injuries at my school are sports related). People get injured because they put themselves at risk, I am sure there are a few exceptions, work related or inflicted but those you don't have to pay for.

[The Mullinator]

I have never once broken anything in my body, or been injured in any way. The reason is is because I don't **** around, and I have common sense. I also don't play sports, but I don't think I should be paying for some jock to hurt himself over and over (it seems like 95% of injuries at my school are sports related). People get injured because they put themselves at risk, I am sure there are a few exceptions, work related or inflicted but those you don't have to pay for.
So you don't play sports? Alright, I will also assume you don't work out since you actually risk a lot of injury working out at a gym. In that case you are likely going to have other health problems when you get older, more than the people who play sports now are going to get.

[OCybrManO]

I don't pay anything for my insurance, my employer does.That's not entirely true. If your employer pays something for you it still comes out of your potential earnings (if the employer didn't have to pay that money for insurance they could have higher salaries)... so, either way, you're paying for your insurance. Do you think they only negotiate the salary and then tack on a bunch of free stuff like paid vacation time and health insurance? No, all of those "benefits" come out of the money you would get without them... and it usually costs them less than the amount they cut the salary.

You call your providor and work out a payment plan.Not everyone has a "providor." Some people can't afford insurance. That's what this system is meant to help with. Other than affording healthcare to people that barely earn enough to live as is... there's not really a benefit of universal healthcare. It's a tradeoff. People that can will pay a little bit more so that people who can't pay still get treatment/medication. As soon as they can afford it (if ever) they start paying for it. If you can find a way for everyone to have jobs that net them enough cash to support their families and pay for insurance... be my guest. Until then, I think we shouldn't punish the poor people that are honestly in trouble because of some bad apples that may try to exploit the system.

Words I spelled incorrectly: 1
Typos made: 1Actually, I counted 6 errors in one pass... but who is counting? Wait. I just counted, didn't I? :O I kid. :E

[seinfeldrules]

If I trusted the Government with my money then I'd choose A. However, I dont so I guess the only option for me is C.

[MjM]

The poll aint slanted in my opinion but it misses alot of aspects.

In New Zealand, we are taxed either 19/33/39 (depending on how much you're earning) cents in the dollar. We also pay 12.5% on all goods and services purchased (Goods and Services Tax, GST)

Primary health care is not free, except for the elderly and young(preschool). Vaccinations are free however and offered through schools.
Primary health care is your local doctor or general practitioner. While you are enrolled in a school you also recieve free dental treatment, so from 5 - 18yrs.

If you require hospitalisation or surgery then that is free. There is also the state provided ACC, which will cover lost earnings and costs(even on a long term basis(lifetime)) of an accident, ranging from a sprained ankle to serious injury. A typical examples, i would guess, would be back related issues for labourers, RSI, those sorts of things. Ive recieved ACC for breaking bones(finger :P), just to cover the cost of Xray and to see the doctor.

You can also be subsidised if you have a commnity services card(for students/low income earners) or are affiliated to a particular practitioner, as GP's recieve government funding based on people affiliated with that particular GP.

Many prescription medications are also subsidised, so generally you only pay a few dollars for a prescription. Off the counter medications are not subsidised.

As well there are private hospitals and private health insurers. The benifits are that you can get treatment faster for the likes of hip replacements, non life threatning things typical old age ailments. Generally minor operations are more pleasent in private hospitals in terms of surroundings/food. For example my grandparents have had there eyes done privately, so now they dont have to wear glasses(they have better vision than me :( )

State provided services unless well funded/capitalised can get bogged down, under waiting lists. For example; some cancer treatments have such long waiting lists that patients are allowed to recieve treatment in Australian hospitals at the expense of the taxpayer. Hip replacements were also an issue a few years ago, with some people waiting many months.

On the whole i think state funding/subsidies and provision of services is good, it works in NZ at least to a fairly high standard. At the bear minimum i think hospitalisation should absolutely be free.

[el Chi]

The poll is slanted to a left wing bias.As opposed to the many threads slanted to a right-wing bias. It never ceases to amaze me how you cry shennanigans of bias or corruption or lies on the left whilst seeming to act as if the right are the sole bastions of honesty decency and righteousness. They're not.

Besides, if you don't like those options, simply don't vote, just make your opinions well-heard. Who honestly gives a sh*t about a poll on a forum primarily concerning a computer game?


Onto free health-care.
The NHS is the most fabulous thing and I despise the media for unfailingly portraying it as this flailing public institution that - if you believe everything some newspapers imply - seems to actively want to make patients suffer.
Sure it has its problems, but then an institution of that size and that complexity will do. It could do with some streamlining, but that does NOT mean it's a failure.
The media never focusses on the countless positive things it does which enrages me beyond measure. People whine and whine about it, but if it was disbanded, people would still whine AND be the poorer for it.
I'm epileptic and am on a five-year course of medication. All told, that would cost at least £6,484.70 - that's a lot of money. I have friends who're diabetic and they get their insulin for free. I'm not sure how much that costs, but I imagine it's a fair whack. These things are remedies to conditions that are extremely hazardous to a person's well-being that are being provided by the state, for free to the populous. We pay taxes for the government to help protect and care for us (emergency services, military, education, benefits money to upkeep councils, NHS, etc.) and I despise people who completely overlok the tremendous good it does.

Like the Tories.
"I mean, how hard can it be to keep a hospital clean?"
Howard deserves to be publicly hung, drawn and quartered for that disgusting statement alone. Or at the very least consigned to a life-time of servitude as an NHS janitor and then he can see how hard it is and how good the NHS is and how hard they work.
C*nt.


Free healthcare is a terrible idea, I shouldn't have to fix the broken arm of the dumbass skater punk down the street because he was smoking pot and ran into a car, honestly he could die and I wouldn't careYour lack of compassion for fellow human beings makes my blood run cold. Sure, your example was stupid, but so's your response. It's selfish, it's arrogant and conjurs up many many more feelings of revulsion and contempt in me.

[Foxtrot]

So you don't play sports? Alright, I will also assume you don't work out since you actually risk a lot of injury working out at a gym. In that case you are likely going to have other health problems when you get older, more than the people who play sports now are going to get.
I do work out actually, 5'9 150 pounds.

[Foxtrot]

Your lack of compassion for fellow human beings makes my blood run cold. Sure, your example was stupid, but so's your response. It's selfish, it's arrogant and conjurs up many many more feelings of revulsion and contempt in me.
Why should I have to pay money because people are dumb? I don't tolerate dumb people, unofortunate people I can tolerate they could get some healthcare if they don't go out of their way to put themselves at risk.

[el Chi]

Why should I have to pay money because people are dumb? I don't tolerate dumb people, unofortunate people I can tolerate they could get some healthcare if they don't go out of their way to put themselves at risk.I'm struggling not to launch into an incredibly angry tirade here, but it won't get my point across - not that I expect anything I say to be anything more than water off a duck's back.

You make it sound as if they're beggars. You make it sound as if someone who foolishly got an injury is actively coming to your house and forcibly taking as much of your money as their operation will cost. This is not the case.

Let's say you see a kid playing in the street, being fairly careless. They get hit by a car and the car drives off. Now, seeing as you're the only one there, do you ignore the child because it shouldn't have been playing in the street in the firstplace? Or do you make a phone call from a call box and spend a tiny fraction of your income helping to save someone's life? For every "dumb" injury the NHS deals with, it deals with life-saving operations on, say, cancer; it helps delivers babies and numerous other medical practices not caused by "dumb" people.

And it's not as if the system is basically raping you of any medical rights. If you need an operation or if you need to see your GP or if you need certain medication, you don't pay anything except the taxes you've paid.
You pay taxes anyway - what if a proportion of the grossly over-sized military budget went to helping people in hospitals and it didn't infringe on your taxes too much? Would you be ok with it then? Or are you ok with your tax dollars hard at word kicking seven shades of sh*t out of people thousands of miles away rather than helping your fellow Americans?
But let's not drag this into a military debate.
If you don't believe we each have a duty to our fellow human beings then fair enough. I find it incredibly cold-blooded of you, though.

F*ck it, I'm stopping here because your selfishness is really pissing me off.

[DEATH eVADER]

every man for himself?


Funny, I thought the American motto is, "No one should be left behind".....oh wait, thats the US Army

[Bodacious]

That's not entirely true. If your employer pays something for you it still comes out of your potential earnings (if the employer didn't have to pay that money for insurance they could have higher salaries)... so, either way, you're paying for your insurance. Do you think they only negotiate the salary and then tack on a bunch of free stuff like paid vacation time and health insurance? No, all of those "benefits" come out of the money you would get without them... and it usually costs them less than the amount they cut the salary.

I see where you are coming from and that is the case I am sure but the difference is, I have never seen that extra money nor have I had the opportunity to.. It is not like I was getting paid $20/hour one day and then the next day I decided I wanted healthcare and my pay was now $15/hour. From my point of view I have always been paid $15/hour and the money my employer pays for health insurance was never mine to miss not getting paid.



Not everyone has a "providor." Some people can't afford insurance. That's what this system is meant to help with. Other than affording healthcare to people that barely earn enough to live as is... there's not really a benefit of universal healthcare. It's a tradeoff. People that can will pay a little bit more so that people who can't pay still get treatment/medication. As soon as they can afford it (if ever) they start paying for it. If you can find a way for everyone to have jobs that net them enough cash to support their families and pay for insurance... be my guest. Until then, I think we shouldn't punish the poor people that are honestly in trouble because of some bad apples that may try to exploit the system.


Hence why I said in myfirst post, "...welfare for the needy..." or something along the lines of that.

[CptStern]

how many of you could have afforded a $300,000 medical bill? my son was born 3 months pre-mature ..if I had no healthcare insurance I'd have to pay the hospital $300,000 for his 2 month stay ...44 million americans are in that same position.

[Bodacious]

As opposed to the many threads slanted to a right-wing bias. It never ceases to amaze me how you cry shennanigans of bias or corruption or lies on the left whilst seeming to act as if the right are the sole bastions of honesty decency and righteousness. They're not.

I love all of your baseless accusations. I would like for you to show me where I have siad the right are, "the sole bastions of honesty decency and righteousness." Good luck.


Besides, if you don't like those options, simply don't vote, just make your opinions well-heard. Who honestly gives a sh*t about a poll on a forum primarily concerning a computer game?


Read my first post in this thread where I point out a better fourth option.

[The Monkey]

Your lack of compassion for fellow human beings makes my blood run cold. Sure, your example was stupid, but so's your response. It's selfish, it's arrogant and conjurs up many many more feelings of revulsion and contempt in me.

Completely agree, I can't believe that some people actually things like he does. Let's have another example: A lower class family; they are out driving when the car crash and the girl is almost killed. Her bones and internal organs are all damaged. If she get treatment right away she might make it. But oh, I just remember, her family is poor. Oh well, who cares if a poor girl dies, they're just in the way anyway, right?

[firemachine69]

Wow...

Sure, we have long wait lines. Sure our canuck system has problems.

But it's needed.

Help your fellow man (or woman :)) out.



There's a few specific situations where I don't fully agree with paid healthcare (aka smoking, you imposed that on yourself), but for the better part, it shouldn't even be a question.

[Bodacious]

how many of you could have afforded a $300,000 medical bill? my son was born 3 months pre-mature ..if I had no healthcare insurance I'd have to pay the hospital $300,000 for his 2 month stay ...44 million americans are in that same position.


And 256 Million are not in the same position.

Healthcare isn't as simple as you would make it seem to be. For one, what was your net yearly income when he was born? Assuming someone had no insurance suggests they are poor enough to qualify for state or federal assistance. For example, my then girlfried was in the hospital for 3 days and racked up 13k in bills and she qualified for state assistance and her bill was paid 100%. Even then there is chapter 7 or 11 bankruptcy.

[Bodacious]

Completely agree, I can't believe that some people actually things like he does. Let's have another example: A lower class family; they are out driving when the car crash and the girl is almost killed. Her bones and internal organs are all damaged. If she get treatment right away she might make it. But oh, I just remember, her family is poor. Oh well, who cares if a poor girl dies, they're just in the way anyway, right?


People here in America can't be denied treatment in a situation like this. Her life would be saved.

[CptStern]

And 256 Million are not in the same position.

Healthcare isn't as simple as you would make it seem to be. For one, what was your net yearly income when he was born? Assuming someone had no insurance suggests they are poor enough to qualify for state or federal assistance. For example, my then girlfried was in the hospital for 3 days and racked up 13k in bills and she qualified for state assistance and her bill was paid 100%. Even then there is chapter 7 or 11 bankruptcy.

only 39 million are below the poverty line ..and 44 million are without healthcare. Therefore every single one of those poor are without healthcare ...and then some ...another 30 million under-insured


again what happens if I dont qualitfy for state assistance? both my wife and I were working for ourselves at the time ..we wouldnt have qualified for assistance. $300,000 is a lot of money to be paying for what should be a right as a citizen.

[firemachine69]

I have to fully agree with Capt. on this one.

I work part time while attending college, I sustain myself. I still donate to health care, and honestly, I'm in full accordance with it. Again, helping your fellow human out. Lend a hand, you'll need one lent yourself sooner or later. ;)

[The Monkey]

People here in America can't be denied treatment in a situation like this. Her life would be saved.

But the family have to pay for the treatment afterwards, right?

[Bodacious]

only 39 million are below the poverty line ..and 44 million are without healthcare. Therefore every single one of those poor are without healthcare ...and then some ...another 30 million under-insured

You are advocating that the wishes of 44 million people should supercede the wishes of 256 million people, just because you think free healthcare is a "right as a citizen?"




again what happens if I dont qualitfy for state assistance? both my wife and I were working for ourselves at the time ..we wouldnt have qualified for assistance. $300,000 is a lot of money to be paying for what should be a right as a citizen.

Doesn't matter if your self employed or you work for Joe Corp, what matters is your household income.

Don't qualify, well, if you are as poor as those 44 million chances are you would, but if by some chance you didn't then most likely you aren't poor. Even then there is the Red cross, local curches, a 2nd job, or bankruptcy. For one, I am fairly certain a hospital isn't going to charge interest. For two, the hospital would work with you. You tell them your monthly obligation (house payment or rent, car payment, etc) or how much a month you can afford to pay and they would set it up to where you wouldn't be broken. Yah, your lifestyle would suffer and you might have to get rid of the calbe tv, but how much is your son being healthy worth?

[Bodacious]

But the family have to pay for the treatment afterwards, right?


Depends on their household income. If they are truly considered poor the state or the federal government would pay their bills.

[KoreBolteR]

the only people i dont want to help are the people who dont want to get a job that have plenty of oppurtunities to, or ones that want to be lazy, and let others do the work and pay thier healthcare for them.

but on the otherhand, i like the idea that working people should help thier fellow hardworking countrymen.

[The Monkey]

Depends on their household income. If they are truly considered poor the state or the federal government would pay their bills.

But what about you're just above that limit? Your whole life ruined... Let's face it, people with more money gets better treatment than people with less. That's sick. Everyone have the right to high quality medical care, no matter how their economy looks like. Don't you agree with that?

[CptStern]

You are advocating that the wishes of 44 million people should supercede the wishes of 256 million people, just because you think free healthcare is a "right as a citizen?"

how would the rest of the people be affected?





Doesn't matter if your self employed or you work for Joe Corp, what matters is your household income.

yes but if my wife had been ordered on bed rest for the last 6 months of her pregnancy (as she's probably going to have to do this time around) our income would be greatly deminished (at least on paper). Not to mention the fact that most people dont expect an extended hospital stay for something so routine as the birth of a child

Don't qualify, well, if you are as poor as those 44 million chances are you would, but if by some chance you didn't then most likely you aren't poor. Even then there is the Red cross, local curches, a 2nd job, or bankruptcy.

please try to stay in the realm of reality ...no second job will help pay for a $300,000 medical bill ...do you support yourself? if you do then you'd realise between mortgage, expense of living there's hardly room for another $300,000 mortgage like payment ...if I was renting there's no way a bank would lend me the money I need to buy a house with a $300,000 debt to my name
For one, I am fairly certain a hospital isn't going to charge interest. For two, the hospital would work with you. You tell them your monthly obligation (house payment or rent, car payment, etc) or how much a month you can afford to pay and they would set it up to where you wouldn't be broken.


unless you're making a combined total of > $150,000 you're not going to be able to afford $600,000 ($300 k for house, 300 k for hospital bills)

Yah, your lifestyle would suffer and you might have to get rid of the calbe tv, but how much is your son being healthy worth?


:upstare: I might have to give up cable tv? I think I'd have to give up much more than that ...how about never being able to buy a home? how about never being able to get a loan? how about never getting my head above the water because the monthly payments prevent me from ever saving enough money for a down payment? maybe it's dirt cheap where you live but you cant buy a single story house where I live for under $300 k

[Foxtrot]

I'm struggling not to launch into an incredibly angry tirade here, but it won't get my point across - not that I expect anything I say to be anything more than water off a duck's back.

You make it sound as if they're beggars. You make it sound as if someone who foolishly got an injury is actively coming to your house and forcibly taking as much of your money as their operation will cost. This is not the case.

Let's say you see a kid playing in the street, being fairly careless. They get hit by a car and the car drives off. Now, seeing as you're the only one there, do you ignore the child because it shouldn't have been playing in the street in the firstplace? Or do you make a phone call from a call box and spend a tiny fraction of your income helping to save someone's life? For every "dumb" injury the NHS deals with, it deals with life-saving operations on, say, cancer; it helps delivers babies and numerous other medical practices not caused by "dumb" people.

And it's not as if the system is basically raping you of any medical rights. If you need an operation or if you need to see your GP or if you need certain medication, you don't pay anything except the taxes you've paid.
You pay taxes anyway - what if a proportion of the grossly over-sized military budget went to helping people in hospitals and it didn't infringe on your taxes too much? Would you be ok with it then? Or are you ok with your tax dollars hard at word kicking seven shades of sh*t out of people thousands of miles away rather than helping your fellow Americans?
But let's not drag this into a military debate.
If you don't believe we each have a duty to our fellow human beings then fair enough. I find it incredibly cold-blooded of you, though.

F*ck it, I'm stopping here because your selfishness is really pissing me off.You think I am selfish because I don't want to pay for peopls dumb mistakes? All I said was I don't want to pay for peoples dumb mistakes. You are the one being selfish, **** the world, lets give free medical care.

[Bodacious]

But what about you're just above that limit? Your whole life ruined...

Umm, no its not. Mayby in your pessimistic world it is but not in mine. I would work with the collector, make a payment plan, lose my cell phone, internet, and cable, and get to work paying off my debts.


Let's face it, people with more money gets better treatment than people with less. That's sick. Everyone have the right to high quality medical care, no matter how their economy looks like. Don't you agree with that?


No, I don't agree. I work hard for what I have and I shouldn't have to pay for someone who has had the same opportunities I do. However, I do agree that the people that need welfare, including healthcare, should get it, that is why the state pays a lot of medical bills.

[CptStern]

You think I am selfish because I don't want to pay for peopls dumb mistakes? All I said was I don't want to pay for peoples dumb mistakes. You are the one being selfish, **** the world, lets give free medical care.

:upstare: do you think you'll be healthy all your life? funny enough most people dont really need medical attention till they're a senior ..which is also coincidentily the period in your life where you have the least income

[el Chi]

the only people i dont want to help are the people who dont want to get a job that have plenty of oppurtunities to, or ones that want to be lazy, and let others do the work and pay thier healthcare for them.I think it's far more of a media-driven myth than a reality that there are legions of moochers sucking the state dry. Benefits aren't that great that that many people can decide that's the only way they want to get money.

Umm, no its not. Mayby in your pessimistic world it is but not in mine. I would work with the collector, make a payment plan, lose my cell phone, internet, and cable, and get to work paying off my debts.PErsonally I'd rather pay some taxes and not have to give those things up when I get ill. But then that's just me.


You think I am selfish because I don't want to pay for peopls dumb mistakes? All I said was I don't want to pay for peoples dumb mistakes. You are the one being selfish, **** the world, lets give free medical care.I'm sorry but I stand by my view that you're selfish.
You don't give appear to give a flying f*ck if someone is severly ill or hurt. As long as you're ok, that's what counts.
What about that example I gave with the child? Would you risk the money of that phone call? Because that's all it would cost you, whilst the rest of your tax money would go towards worthy cases.
Your opposition to free healthcare is rooted that you don't want to help others on the off-chance that their injury might be through their own silliness. I'm sorry, but that's selfish.

And how does me wanting other people to be healthy make me selfish? You really lost me on that point.

[Bodacious]

how would the rest of the people be affected?


They would have to be forced to pay more taxes to cover everyone else. And not just some piddly amount, a lot more in taxes


yes but if my wife had been ordered on bed rest for the last 6 months of her pregnancy (as she's probably going to have to do this time around) our income would be greatly deminished (at least on paper). Not to mention the fact that most people dont expect an extended hospital stay for something so routine as the birth of a child


Ahh, so you would lose half your household income if she was orded to bed, no? You might qualify afterall.


please try to stay in the realm of reality ...no second job will help pay for a $300,000 medical bill ...do you support yourself? if you do then you'd realise between mortgage, expense of living there's hardly room for another $300,000 mortgage like payment ...if I was renting there's no way a bank would lend me the money I need to buy a house with a $300,000 debt to my name


1. No interest is charged on your medical debts.
2. Get your cable turned off, make the cuts necessary to find the extra chash needed to make your monthly payments.
3. The hospital would work with you. They aren't going to make you pay $1000/month. You would pay what you coudl afford.
4. Adjust your expense of livng and get rid of your mortgage
5. Don't buy a house.


unless you're making a combined total of > $150,000 you're not going to be able to afford $600,000 ($300 k for house, 300 k for hospital bills)


Don't buy a 300k house. Settle for a 2 bedroom apartment or a way cheaper house.


:upstare: I might have to give up cable tv? I think I'd have to give up much more than that ...how about never being able to buy a home? how about never being able to get a loan? how about never getting my head above the water because the monthly payments prevent me from ever saving enough money for a down payment? maybe it's dirt cheap where you live but you cant buy a single story house where I live for under $300 k


THere are lots of people who are cursed with bad credit and live with it every day and they have never been in a hospital.

If you can't buy a house for under 300k then you get paid a lot more than I do and the the minimum wage is a lot more.

You are making this out to be a lot worse than it would be. Give me an example of someone who has a hard time with their medical bills instead of all of these "what ifs" There are too many variables involved to make any decisions.

[CptStern]

They would have to be forced to pay more taxes to cover everyone else. And not just some piddly amount, a lot more in taxes

source? according to this (http://www.statcan.ca/english/studies/75-001/archive/2000/pear2000012002s2a04.pdf) your income taxe rate is almost on par or equal with canada's, depending on your earnings:

canada:

10,000 to 24,999 6.2%

US:

10,000 to 24,999 6.2%



the same rate for freehealthcare, safer cleaner cities is a big deal if you ask me


Ahh, so you would lose half your household income if she was orded to bed, no? You might qualify afterall.

pay attention now ..she was working for herself ...so yes, no income ..but I made enough that we were able to survive ...although even though we both make above average wages there's no way we'd ever be able to pay for the mortgage, baby's needs, living expenses etc ...AND a $300,00 hospital bill



1. No interest is charged on your medical debts.

who cares? 0% on 300,00o is still beyond the reach of most people

2. Get your cable turned off, make the cuts necessary to find the extra chash needed to make your monthly payments.

curious ..bodacious ...do you live on your own? I know you say your married but I doesnt seem to me that you understand the responsibilites of supporting your family ..I can budget up the wazoo but that's not going to change the fact that I have to come up with another $1000 -2000 a month just to pay off the hospital

3. The hospital would work with you. They aren't going to make you pay $1000/month. You would pay what you coudl afford.

if I pay minimum $1000 a month that's still 30 odd years to pay it off ..are you saying the hospital is stupid and is willing to make low low payments just to keep you happy?

4. Adjust your expense of livng and get rid of your mortgage

back to reality please ...no adjustment of my lifestyle would help pay for a $4000 a month debt

5. Don't buy a house.

I wouldnt be able to buy one ..seeing as how rent and the cost of living is too high to be able to save for a downpayment



Don't buy a 300k house. Settle for a 2 bedroom apartment or a way cheaper house.

doesnt exist ..2 bedrooms will run you $$900-1200 a month




THere are lots of people who are cursed with bad credit and live with it every day and they have never been in a hospital.

you dont need it when your healthy! you need it when you're old ...seriously how many of you will be able to pay for health insurance at the age of 65? My dad has been in and out of treatments for the better part of the last 7 years ...no way we could have payed for all of it ...even though my parents are quite well off

If you can't buy a house for under 300k then you get paid a lot more than I do and the the minimum wage is a lot more.

nope, that's why there's a shortage of housing in my city ..most people have to commute an hour or so to get to work ...which means the added expense of a car

You are making this out to be a lot worse than it would be. Give me an example of someone who has a hard time with their medical bills instead of all of these "what ifs" There are too many variables involved to make any decisions.

well what about the bus loads of americans seniors that come over the border ever single day for "drug shopping" cuz they cant afford the same drugs back home? cross border drug shopping by americans is a billion $ a year business

[Bodacious]

well what about the bus loads of americans seniors that come over the border ever single day for "drug shopping" cuz they cant afford the same drugs back home? cross border drug shopping by americans is a billion $ a year business


That is a completely differnt issue.

[CptStern]

no it's not ...healthcare is healthcare

[kirovman]

My view: The state should pay the costs of anything that is medically necessary.
That may include heart surgery, haemerroids, fixing a broken arm, etc. Doctor visits should also be state paid.
I don't see free health care as inclination to be lazy as recieving money each month might. I don't think the normal citizen should have to worry "Will I get hit by a bus today, and if so how do I pay the medical bills?"
Health shouldn't be a win-death lottery, the last things people need when they get kicked down by life is to be further kicked down.

Other stuff like boob jobs and that should come out of the patients pocket, maybe taxed more to provide money for the health service.

Also, I'd like to point out that free health care is essentially a state run health insurance, which noone is left out of.

Do you guys disagree with insurance, you pay for things that happen to other people, on the off chance you hit some grave misfortune?

Help your fellow man (or woman ) out.

Yes, like it or not we live in a society, and sometimes we need to help the weak guy back on his feet. We don't live in isolation.

On the other hand why pay any taxes at all?
I don't have a car, why should I pay taxes going towards road maintenance?
You should have to pay for your own roads.
I don't goto school anymore...why should I pay for other people's education?
You should have to pay for your own children's schools.

If we followed the above example we would see the rich-poor divide grow.

[OCybrManO]

No, I don't agree. I work hard for what I have and I shouldn't have to pay for someone who has had the same opportunities I do.Are you thick? That's the whole point. Not everyone has had the same opportunities. Not every man is created equal to start, unlike that game "Life." You're still stuck on this wacky idea that all of the poor people are that way because they are lazy. It's a sterotype. I'm sure at least a few of them are lazy but if I said you were a rapist only because I've seen/heard of a few humans that were rapists you probably wouldn't like that, would you?

As I said before, if you can find a way to give everyone an equal opportunity to succeed... go ahead. Until then, don't kick people while they're down.

If I trusted the Government with my money then I'd choose A. However, I dont so I guess the only option for me is C.That's actually the best point I've seen in here so far...

They would have to be forced to pay more taxes to cover everyone else. And not just some piddly amount, a lot more in taxes.How much do you pay for health insurance? Imagine a 25% increase only on that one payment. If everyone that could afford it payed the same amount for health insurance it would cover the ~20% of the population that is without decent healthcare (ie: 4 people pay 25% more to cover the 5th person). OMG! Bankrupt! That would be the flat tax option for everyone over a certain income. The only problem with that overly simplistic system is that 125% of a standard insurance rate would be a much more significant burden for people with lower incomes compared to those with higher incomes.

It could also be made into a more top-heavy system so that the people below a certain level (like the poverty line) pay nothing, then from there the percentage goes up gradually with an increase in disposable income, of course, with a limit. So maybe the top 10% would be paying for the bottom 10% of the population (ie: assuming the cap is something like 200% of the standard insurance rate, which would be practically nothing for the people in that bracket)... which is the majority of the people that fall into the poverty category. Then, the people around the median income level would only have to pay an extra 10% or even less... depending on how the distribution is worked out and what they payed before the switch.

[Bodacious]

no it's not ...healthcare is healthcare


No, it is perscription drug prices vs healthcare. If drugs cost the same as they did in Canada there wouldn't be an issue about people crossing the border, would there?

[CptStern]

they're the same thing ...does your health isurance cover your prescriptions? oh and there's absolutely no reason why the drug prices in the US couldnt be the same as in canada ...except for the fact that drugs are regulated here (in terms of pricing)

[Bodacious]

Are you thick? That's the whole point. Not everyone has had the same opportunities. Not every man is created equal to start, unlike that game "Life." You're still stuck on this wacky idea that all of the poor people are that way because they are lazy. It's a sterotype. I'm sure at least a few of them are lazy but if I said you were a rapist only because I've seen/heard of a few humans that were rapists you probably wouldn't like that, would you? As I said before, if you can find a way to give everyone an equal opportunity to succeed... go ahead. Until then, don't kick people while they're down.


In America everyone has the same opportunities. Yes someone can be born into poverty, but it is their choice to remain in poverty or not. No where is someone's poverty keeping them from getting a high school education and working hard once they are finished.

Why do you keep assuming what I think? What makes you think I think all poor people are lazy? I have never said such a thing.

[Bodacious]

they're the same thing ...does your health isurance cover your prescriptions? oh and there's absolutely no reason why the drug prices in the US couldnt be the same as in canada ...except for the fact that drugs are regulated here (in terms of pricing)


I pay more for perscriptions than I do my regular healthcare.

[CptStern]

explain ....doesnt your healthcare insurance cover your prescriptions?

[The Monkey]

Umm, no its not. Mayby in your pessimistic world it is but not in mine. I would work with the collector, make a payment plan, lose my cell phone, internet, and cable, and get to work paying off my debts.


Not a very good life is it? If the care was free he/she would've lived a normal life. No one deserves to go through somelike like that for something they cant help.

[Bodacious]

Not a very good life is it? If the care was free he/she would've lived a normal life. No one deserves to go through somelike like that for something they cant help.


But they can help it, that is the difference. Maybe they should have worked hard and got a job that had benefits. Maybe they should have waited to have kids or not bought that car. Money problems come from poor money management. There are few people out there who are truly undeserving of their problems.

[OCybrManO]

In America everyone has the same opportunities. Yes someone can be born into poverty, but it is their choice to remain in poverty or not. No where is someone's poverty keeping them from getting a high school education and working hard once they are finished.

Why do you keep assuming what I think? What makes you think I think all poor people are lazy? I have never said such a thing.I don't have to assume. You just said it. "No where is someone's poverty keeping them from getting a high school education and working hard once they are finished." You just said the only thing holding them back is a lack of hard work right before you said you didn't think they were lazy. That's the definition of lazy!

Not everyone has the talent and/or mental capacity for jobs that pay well and have good benefits, no matter how hard they try. Not everyone lives in a place where there are any decent job opportunities... and if they can't get a job they can't travel to a better place. That's why there are towns where most of the men go into the military or do menial labor for minimum wage.

[Bodacious]

explain ....doesnt your healthcare insurance cover your prescriptions?


A small percentage

[Bodacious]

I don't have to assume. You just said it. "No where is someone's poverty keeping them from getting a high school education and working hard once they are finished." You just said the only thing holding them back is a lack of hard work right before you said you didn't think they were lazy. That's the definition of lazy!


Ok, you definatly need to take some reading comprehension classes.

I did not say lack of hard work is holding them back. I said poverty isn't holding someone back from working hard.

Get a ****ing clue.

[OCybrManO]

Ok, you definatly need to take some reading comprehension classes.

I did not say lack of hard work is holding them back. I said poverty isn't holding someone back from working hard.

Get a ****ing clue.Who else thinks Bodacious needs to work on his logic and/or writing? Whether you mean it or not your words are constantly implying that people just aren't working hard enough.

[CptStern]

A small percentage


then why are you trying to purposefully mislead me when you say that the cost of drugs has nothing to do with healthcare? Drugs are included in your healthplan ...in other words without healthcare coverage "m forced to pay 100% of drug costs? which explains why so many seniors go cross border shopping

[Bodacious]

Who else thinks Bodacious needs to work on his logic and/or writing? Whether you mean it or not your words are constantly implying that people just aren't working hard enough.



Who else here thinks CybrMan needs to work on his reading skills?

Whether your comprehension is lacking or not you are making poor assumptions from what I say.

Why don't you go back to my first post and read where I say that welfare is needed for the people who need it? You are so "good" at deductive reasoning maybe you can deduce what I mean by saying that. Could it be that I think some people who are experienceing bad times need some help from the government? Yes, that is what I think.

Assumption is the mother of all **** ups.

[jondy]

Who else thinks Bodacious needs to work on his logic and/or writing? Whether you mean it or not your words are constantly implying that people just aren't working hard enough.

It's consistent enough to be intentional

[The Monkey]

But they can help it, that is the difference. Maybe they should have worked hard and got a job that had benefits. Maybe they should have waited to have kids or not bought that car. Money problems come from poor money management. There are few people out there who are truly undeserving of their problems.

Not all people have the oppertunity to starta career, nor does everybody want to. I guees that if you were a black woman with 5 children, your opinion would've been another.

[Bodacious]

then why are you trying to purposefully mislead me when you say that the cost of drugs has nothing to do with healthcare? Drugs are included in your healthplan ...in other words without healthcare coverage "m forced to pay 100% of drug costs? which explains why so many seniors go cross border shopping

Fair enough, I'll shut up about that.

[Bodacious]

Not all people have the oppertunity to starta career,

Yes they do.


nor does everybody want to.


That isn't the government's responsiblity to take care of someone who doens't want to be productive.


I guees that if you were a black woman with 5 children, your opinion would've been another.


Good thing I am not a black woman with 5 children.

[CptStern]

bodacious I'm not trying to be confrontational but the reality is that many working poor are shafted by the system ...the system helps those that can afford it, everyone else is left to fend for themselves ...it's no different in canada ...do you think rich politicians wait to see a specialist in canada like everyone else? no, they go to private clinics in the US because they can afford it. My point is that healthcare should be a universal right, not solely for a priveledged minority


awhile back there was a "who's the greatest canadian" media campaign ..1.2 million canadians voted ..and surprisingly enough the person who won was the father of modern healthcare in canada: Tommy Douglas (http://www.cbc.ca/greatest/top_ten/nominee/douglas-tommy.html)

[Bodacious]

My point is that healthcare should be a universal right, not solely for a priveledged minority

In America it isn't. That system would be impossilbe to implement here for economic reasons alone.

You said a bracket of Canada's and our tax rates were the same. Well, we would have to add all of the costs of that free healthcare system to the budget. Either things already in the budget would have to be done away with to the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars or taxes would have to be raised to compensate for the added budget increase.

[The Monkey]

Yes they do.

Yes, most people have, but not all.

That isn't the government's responsiblity to take care of someone who doens't want to be productive.

It's the government's responsibility to take care of all of its citizens.

Good thing I am not a black woman with 5 children.

What I'm saying is that you just have the opinion you got because you were one of the "winners". Those 40 million who don't have health insurance are the "losers", and it's those people that you have to think about.

[Bodacious]

Yes, most people have, but not all.

Yes all, everyone has the same opportunity as everyone else, unless they were born handicapped or something.


It's the government's responsibility to take care of all of its citizens.


Not as far as healthcare goes.



What I'm saying is that you just have the opinion you got because you were one of the "winners". Those 40 million who don't have health insurance are the "losers", and it's those people that you have to think about.


And they have every opportunity to be winners, the same opportunites that I do.

I will say there are some people who need help, though, like the permanently disabled due to an accident or someone who lost their job and can't make ends meet.

[OCybrManO]

Assumption is the mother of all **** ups.No, I'd say accidental hypocrisy based on assumptions is the mother of all **** ups.

Oh, righteous man of non-assumption...ness...

Did I say you thought people shouldn't be helped in hard times? No, I said you blame people's economic situations on laziness... which you have been repeating for a at least a couple of pages. I never said you thought all people become poor from laziness. You assumed that part. I was only saying it appeared that you thought they stayed poor because of a lack of effort on their part. You have been repeating that part rather consistently... I don't know how it's not obvious to you, but it would seem that others see it... so, I'm not the only crazy one.

Yes all, everyone has the same opportunity as everyone else, unless they were born handicapped or something.There is no "handicapped" divide where on one side everyone is fully capable and on the other everyone is critically handicapped to the point of not being able to function. It's all shades of grey divided into arbitrary categories. People that are just dumb enough to not be "handicapped" don't get help... and they don't have the same opportunities as normal people. I know a few people like that. Life is hard for them.

[CptStern]

Oh, righteous man of non-assumption...ness...



heheh that made me LoL :laugh:

[CptStern]

In America it isn't. That system would be impossilbe to implement here for economic reasons alone.

please, you spend more on arms than most countries combined ...if even a fraction of that went into healthcare everyone could be protected

You said a bracket of Canada's and our tax rates were the same. Well, we would have to add all of the costs of that free healthcare system to the budget. Either things already in the budget would have to be done away with to the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars or taxes would have to be raised to compensate for the added budget increase.

$162,728,902,245 spent on iraq could have gone to help your fellow americans out

[The Monkey]

Yes all, everyone has the same opportunity as everyone else, unless they were born handicapped or something.
In most western countries, including Sweden and the US, there're a lot of people from certain ethnic groups who are overrepresented in the unemployment sector. Why? Because they're less fit for jobs? No. But because racism is a very strong force in the west, and it's growing. Tell me, how easy do you think it is for a black woman to reach really high level in american business? Sure, there are exceptions, but the truth is that women, homosexuals and minority ethnic group have a lot harder to get really doog jobs that strait white men do.

Not as far as healthcare goes.
As far as every aspect of society goes.


And they have every opportunity to be winners, the same opportunites that I do.

Read my first answer.

[Bodacious]

No, I'd say accidental hypocrisy based on assumptions is the mother of all **** ups.

Oh, righteous man of non-assumption...ness...

Did I say you thought people shouldn't be helped in hard times? No, I said you blame people's economic situations on laziness... which you have been repeating for a at least a couple of pages. I never said you thought all people become poor from laziness. You assumed that part. I was only saying it appeared that you thought they stayed poor because of a lack of effort on their part. You have been repeating that part rather consistently... I don't know how it's not obvious to you, but it would seem that others see it... so, I'm not the only crazy one.


You said : "You're still stuck on this wacky idea that all of the poor people are that way because they are lazy."


So which is it you said I said? That poor people are that way because they are lazy or do you think I am "saying it appeared that you thought they stayed poor because of a lack of effort on their part."

Please enlighten me on what you think it is that I am saying. In one post you say I am sayinig one thing and in your most recent post you say I am saying another. Could it be that you are changing track to cover your ass? Probably.

In fact I am saying the latter of the above, but I will also add that people stay poor because of their bad choices in life. It is either one of the two, laziness or bad choices.


There is no "handicapped" divide where on one side everyone is fully capable and on the other everyone is critically handicapped to the point of not being able to function. It's all shades of grey divided into arbitrary categories. People that are just dumb enough to not be "handicapped" don't get help... and they don't have the same opportunities as normal people. I know a few people like that. Life is hard for them.


That is what I meant. Thanks for echoing me.

[CptStern]

bodacious are you familiar with the term "working poor"? ...if so then you must realise they're poor not for a lack of trying ..actually stats prove that the "working poor" often work longer hours then those who are above them in social class

[Bodacious]

In most western countries, including Sweden and the US, there're a lot of people from certain ethnic groups who are overrepresented in the unemployment sector. Why? Because they're less fit for jobs? No. But because racism is a very strong force in the west, and it's growing. Tell me, how easy do you think it is for a black woman to reach really high level in american business? Sure, there are exceptions, but the truth is that women, homosexuals and minority ethnic group have a lot harder to get really doog jobs that strait white men do.

I am surea majority of those 44 million people aren't gay or black women. So poverty is racism's fault? I am having a hard time following.

Minorites have to work harder, thats life. Alberto Gonzales did it. Serena williams did it. Tiger woods did it. Everyone can.


As far as every aspect of society goes.


Sorry, socialsim isn't the answer, I think. I will take capitalism anyday.

[Bodacious]

bodacious are you familiar with the term "working poor"? ...if so then you must realise they're poor not for a lack of trying ..actually stats prove that the "working poor" often work longer hours then those who are above them in social class


That is why I said poor choices are also to blame.

[CptStern]

oh come on!!! are you saying that the lack of money is a "poor choice" in why they didnt get a higher education? seriously unless you have money to go to school you'll never get a white collar job

[Bodacious]

oh come on!!! are you saying that the lack of money is a "poor choice" in why they didnt get a higher education? seriously unless you have money to go to school you'll never get a white collar job


High school educations in America are free.

I know many people with high school educations who get by just fine.

Steve Jobs never graduated college and he is a billionaire. Bill gates never finished college, either.

Here is a better example:

http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/03/30/1426214&from=rss

The people mentioned in that article are illegal immigrants and they did better in a robotics competition than people in MIT.

[jondy]

I know many people with high school educations who get by just fine.

Steve Jobs never graduated college and he is a billionaire. Bill gates never finished college, either.

Way to cite the black sheep.

[CptStern]

they're both the exception not the rule ...so what you're saying is that with just a highschool education I should be able to pay for healthcare, buy a house buy a car, and raise a family? wow they must pay garbage men a whole whack of money cuz that's pretty much the ONLY job you'll get with a highschool diploma ...or maybe flipping burgers ...but that's not even remotely a living wage

[Bodacious]

they're both the exception not the rule ...so what you're saying is that with just a highschool education I should be able to pay for healthcare, buy a house buy a car, and raise a family? wow they must pay garbage men a whole whack of money cuz that's pretty much the ONLY job you'll get with a highschool diploma ...or maybe flipping burgers ...but that's not even remotely a living wage

What I am saying is that with a high school education you have every opportunity to do what everyone else does.

[CptStern]

so with a highschool education I can make as much as a doctor? or a lawyer? a pharmacist? an engineer? a pilot? wow the streets of america must be be paved with gold after all ..it truely is the land of ooportunity

[Bodacious]

so with a highschool education I can make as much as a doctor? or a lawyer? a pharmacist? an engineer? a pilot? wow the streets of america must be be paved with gold after all ..it truely is the land of ooportunity

I'm done. Once you refuse to carry on an intelligent conversation and start actiling like a fool I don't have any desire to debate with you.

[CptStern]

I'm done. Once you refuse to carry on an intelligent conversation and start actiling like a fool I don't have any desire to debate with you.


......what the hell are you talking about? it's a valid point

[Bodacious]

......what the hell are you talking about? it's a valid point


My point is, as I have said time and time again, everyone in America has the same opportunities that everyone else does.

[Tr0n]

so with a highschool education I can make as much as a doctor? or a lawyer? a pharmacist? an engineer? a pilot? wow the streets of america must be be paved with gold after all ..it truely is the land of ooportunityWell you wouldn't be able to get those jobs...but there is other things you can do to make as much if not more money then those jobs yearly.

[OCybrManO]

You said : "You're still stuck on this wacky idea that all of the poor people are that way because they are lazy."


So which is it you said I said? That poor people are that way because they are lazy or do you think I am "saying it appeared that you thought they stayed poor because of a lack of effort on their part."The first one meant that the cause of their continued state of poverty is due to their laziness... not the initial fall into poverty. I'm sorry if I didn't phrase that exactly the way it was intended... but, to be fair, we were talking about people trying to get out of poverty. I don't remember the discussion being about how they got there.

In fact I am saying the latter of the above,Not too long ago, you just said that wasn't what you said... and now it is?

but I will also add that people stay poor because of their bad choices in life. It is either one of the two, laziness or bad choices.OK, that's a bit of a clarification... but what would you attribute this long string of bad choices to? Would you say it is a lack of proper education on financial matters or their opportunities? If so, would that be the person's fault or the system that is supposed to teach them?

My point is, as I have said time and time again, everyone in America has the same opportunities that everyone else does.... and my point is the opposite.

I am sure a majority of those 44 million people aren't gay or black women. So poverty is racism's fault? I am having a hard time following.He's talking about disproportionate representation... not a majority. For example, let's say the total population consists of 200 green people and 800 pink people. Now, if a group of poor people consisted of a 40 green people and 60 pink people the greens would make up a disproportionately high percentage of the poor population... suggesting that the system favors the pink people. If it didn't, the mix should be closer to 20/80. It has nothing to do with a majority.

Minorites have to work harder, thats life.That's racism... which, yes, is currently part of life... but that doesn't make it right.

[el Chi]

Other stuff like boob jobs and that should come out of the patients pocket, maybe taxed more to provide money for the health service.The rest of your post was sterling stuff and I pretty much completely agree.

Just to play devil's advocate, if I may... Boob jobs being privately paid; yes. What about sex changes? Should they be available on the NHS? Personally I'm tempted to say that the NHS should, in certain cases subsidise some of the operation.
That said, I haven't got the slightest idea how it works at the moment.

[kirovman]

Just to play devil's advocate, if I may... Boob jobs being privately paid; yes. What about sex changes? Should they be available on the NHS? Personally I'm tempted to say that the NHS should, in certain cases subsidise some of the operation.
That said, I haven't got the slightest idea how it works at the moment.
That certainly is an interesting point.

Should we pay for sex changes? I think...maybe.

Only if not having a sex change is going to result in their life being destroyed.
Although having said that, it can't be a descision taken lightly, can it?
And only a handful of people will do it, so it's not going to be a black hole for money.

But I can just imagine some people's response arguement:
"Poor people want a free health service so they can be lazy, so they can all have sex change operations"

Forgive if my post is a bit meaningless, I'm a bit hungover and I have a local anesthetic from my (free!) dentist, which if I had to pay for myself, I couldn't afford to buy a diamond ring for my girlfriend.

Anyway, in a (futile) effort to try an convince those who don't like public health services, do you want your streets filled with beggars with rotting limbs? Or do you want your country to have a reputation for someplace that can take care of it's citizens? Other countries which I'm sure don't have free health care: Iraq, Iran, North Korea.

I don't think health care should be an item that has value, it should be one of the basic rights of humanity; like food, water and shelter, good health should also be a right, and we should do everything in our power to enforce this right.
What's more important, healthcare for all in your own nation, or freedom/democracy in a far off land?
Most people would value food, water, shelter and healthcare above democracy.

[el Chi]

That certainly is an interesting point.

Should we pay for sex changes? I think...maybe.

Only if not having a sex change is going to result in their life being destroyed.
Although having said that, it can't be a descision taken lightly, can it?
And only a handful of people will do it, so it's not going to be a black hole for money.

But I can just imagine some people's response arguement:
"Poor people want a free health service so they can be lazy, so they can all have sex change operations"My reasoning is similar.
The NHS pays for treatment and rehabilitation of depressives, etc. So, if this operation can improve a transsexual's state of mind, then isn't that a similar process to alieviating depression?
Of course some people would disagree vehemently, and I can sort of understand that as I'm sure some people see it merely as cosmetic surgery.
But, like you say - hardly a decision taken lightly.

[Calanen]

The problem with US healthcare is that HMOs, drug companies and hospitals all collude to price fix.

If you are a poor person wanting to pay cash for a hospital visit, you will pay more, a lot more than the HMOs will have to pay to put one of their insureds in. Why? Because they bargain the price down with their market power. So the person who can least afford it without insurance is the one who pays more.

In addition, drugs just over the border in Canada and Mexico, the same drugs, are many times cheaper. The drug companies talk about safety and so on - but its all a smoke screen. They raise the drug prices sky high in the US and ban the import of drugs from Canada and Mexico to protect their price fixing monopoly.

Those without insurance - which is a lot of people, just have to die if they need serious surgery. I believe that is wrong. The very least that society should provide people is health care. Whether you are poor or not, the USA is a rich enough country to permit

And I was someone who was not on welfare, and earning good money, but I could barely afford to pay medical bills in the US. Someone getting paid less would have been smashed. The employer had bad insurance coverage, so while you were theoretically covered you were not really. In the end the employer made up the difference when I ran out of money, but they could easily have said, we are not doing it.

So thats a very harsh outcome - that people are told if you do not have the money you must suffer and die.

[Pogrom]

I see where you are coming from and that is the case I am sure but the difference is, I have never seen that extra money nor have I had the opportunity to.. It is not like I was getting paid $20/hour one day and then the next day I decided I wanted healthcare and my pay was now $15/hour. From my point of view I have always been paid $15/hour and the money my employer pays for health insurance was never mine to miss not getting paid.

Hypothetically speaking - if there was Universal Health Care then the employer would not have to pay insurance. Then you would get paid more. Then you maybe would get taxed a bit more.

But without the insurance charge, you would not notice the difference anyway. It is not like you'd drop from $15/h to $12/h.

And this is not even diverting any funds from the military budget.

I completely agree with universal healthcare.

[The Monkey]

If you had free college I could possibly understand why you think that everyone can work to afford their health care, but since you haven't, that arguement doesn't work. Maybe I should start a new thread about free college too...

[ALEXDJ]

If you had free college I could possibly understand why you think that everyone can work to afford their health care, but since you haven't, that arguement doesn't work. Maybe I should start a new thread about free college too...
i go to college for free

[The Monkey]

i go to college for free

Where do you live?

[ALEXDJ]

Where do you live?
in Chicago

[The Monkey]

in Chicago

So you got free college in Illinois?

[ALEXDJ]

So you got free college in Illinois?

yes, been in college for 3 years now, haven't paid a penny, not even for textbooks

[Danimal]

The basic health care should be free, although you can't expect the taxpayers to pay for everything.

[The Monkey]

The basic health care should be free, although you can't expect the taxpayers to pay for everything.

Motivate.

[jondy]

The problem with US healthcare is that HMOs, drug companies and hospitals all collude to price fix.

If you are a poor person wanting to pay cash for a hospital visit, you will pay more, a lot more than the HMOs will have to pay to put one of their insureds in. Why? Because they bargain the price down with their market power. So the person who can least afford it without insurance is the one who pays more.

In addition, drugs just over the border in Canada and Mexico, the same drugs, are many times cheaper. The drug companies talk about safety and so on - but its all a smoke screen. They raise the drug prices sky high in the US and ban the import of drugs from Canada and Mexico to protect their price fixing monopoly.

Those without insurance - which is a lot of people, just have to die if they need serious surgery. I believe that is wrong. The very least that society should provide people is health care. Whether you are poor or not, the USA is a rich enough country to permit

And I was someone who was not on welfare, and earning good money, but I could barely afford to pay medical bills in the US. Someone getting paid less would have been smashed. The employer had bad insurance coverage, so while you were theoretically covered you were not really. In the end the employer made up the difference when I ran out of money, but they could easily have said, we are not doing it.

So thats a very harsh outcome - that people are told if you do not have the money you must suffer and die.


Wow, that's pretty much what I was going to jump in and say. :)