NBC films US soldier committing war crime

[CptStern]

US soldier murders wounded unarmed iraqi (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20041116/wl_nm/iraq_marine_shooting_dc_5)

"A second group of Marines entered the mosque on Saturday after reports it had been reoccupied. Footage from the embedded television crew showed the five still in the mosque, although several appeared to be already close to death, Sites said.


He said one Marine noticed one of the prisoners was still breathing.


A Marine can be heard saying on the pool footage provided to Reuters Television: "He's f***ing faking he's dead. He faking he's f***ing dead."


"The Marine then raises his rifle and fires into the man's head. The pictures are too graphic for us to broadcast," Sites said. No images of the shooting were shown in the footage provided to Reuters."


this act breaks the very first geneva accord from 1864, which explicitly forbids the killing of wounded soldiers

[bliink]

well, thats what you get when you train people to kill others without feeling.

[gh0st]

killing wounded soldiers? does that encompass "dirty ass terrorist"? soldiers dont use civilians as shields, im sorry. id have shot his ass too, thats what you do with the enemy.

[bliink]

killing wounded soldiers? does that encompass "dirty ass terrorist"? soldiers dont use civilians as shields, im sorry. id have shot his ass too, thats what you do with the enemy.

no, its not what you do with the enemy; you capture the enemy, you kill them if they are shooting back.

lowering yourself to their level is not wise, or fitting of what you would be attempting to protect

[CptStern]

killing wounded soldiers? does that encompass "dirty ass terrorist"? soldiers dont use civilians as shields, im sorry. id have shot his ass too, thats what you do with the enemy.

are you trying to justify the murder? who says the soldier used a civilian as a shield? the iraqis were wounded on the floor, dying and unarmed ..the US soldier shot him point blank in the head ...he wasnt a threat to anyone

read the article it is AGAINST THE LAW to murder a wounded soldier

btw your government seems to think a crime was committed (probably cuz they couldnt refute the evidence)

[gh0st]

are you trying to justify the murder? who says the soldier used a civilian as a shield? the iraqis were wounded on the floor, dying and unarmed ..the US soldier shot him point blank in the head ...he wasnt a threat to anyone

read the article it is AGAINST THE LAW to murder a wounded soldier
ok i admit, youre right. but do you think an iraqi "soldier" would have done the same?

[CptStern]

I'm glad you saw the error, but far more disturbing is the fact that you were willing to throw your support to the US soldier without knowing the facts ...that's exhibiting a bias ..we're all human beings, I dont care what nationality it is, if a crime has been commited the guilty parties should pay

[bliink]

ok i admit, youre right. but do you think an iraqi "soldier" would have done the same?

well, maybe not- you can't say for sure, but it doesnt mean it would be ok to do it to them.

[gh0st]

do you think the iraqi "soldier" would be tried for anything after he shot the wounded marine? i doubt it. stern ill always throw my support inf ront of a us soldier over an iraqi one, no matter what the circumstances, though i admit that he should be punished

[Sparta]

What an idiot. I hope he gets what he deserves.

[bliink]

do you think the iraqi "soldier" would be tried for anything after he shot the wounded marine? i doubt it. stern ill always throw my support inf ront of a us soldier over an iraqi one, no matter what the circumstances, though i admit that he should be punished

'course, but if there were a debate here, it would be over the actions of the us 'soldier' (a true soldier wouldnt shoot a wounded/defenceless person), rather than the hypothetical actions of an iraqi 'soldier'

[CptStern]

do you think the iraqi "soldier" would be tried for anything after he shot the wounded marine? i doubt it. stern ill always throw my support inf ront of a us soldier over an iraqi one, no matter what the circumstances, though i admit that he should be punished

well that's where we differ ..I throw my support behind those that are deserving ...being a certain nationality guarentees nothing in my book

btw who cares if the iraqi soldier is tried or not, we cant hold them under the same laws the US has. You are supposed to be the liberator.

personally I think he should be charged with second degree (first degree if they can prove intent) and no slap on the wrist, no discharge ..serve the full term for murder ..actually if they were smart they'd throw the book at him, use him as an example ...prove to the world that the US will not condone war crimes

[Sparta]

Are they sure he wasn't a resistance fighter who simply dropped his weapon after he was wounded?

Wait, a second...Even if he was a resistance fighter, its still murder

Nevermind me, i'm just out of it today

[gh0st]

'course, but if there were a debate here, it would be over the actions of the us 'soldier' (a true soldier wouldnt shoot a wounded/defenceless person), rather than the hypothetical actions of an iraqi 'soldier'
no debate. just pointing out who has the higher ground. a true soldier doesnt hide in schools and hospitals either.

edit: moreover, a wounded man is just as dangerous as an unscathed one, especially in close quarters (obviously). we dont have the full facts, we'd need to see the video. all we have is this journalists word.

edit2: waiiit wait. the journalist calls this insurgent a "prisoner." why the hell would the marine shoot him if he's already a prisoner, because hes faking dead. thats the stupidest thing ever, i doubt it worked out like how this guy is portraying it.

[Mechagodzilla]

do you think the iraqi "soldier" would be tried for anything after he shot the wounded marine? i doubt it. stern ill always throw my support inf ront of a us soldier over an iraqi one, no matter what the circumstances, though i admit that he should be punished

I dunno about that. I keep hearing things like that, that the iraqis aren't playing by the rules, so anything goes.
The minute we break our own laws is the minute we become our own enemy.
The entire point of the war at this stage is to spread western values. It defeats the point if we disregard those values in the process.

I mean, he was unarmed. What if that guy wasn't a terrorist?

The question isn't what would an Iraqi soldier want to do to a wounded american.
It's what you would want to have happened if it were a US soldier on the ground there, with an insurgent standing over him.
It's the golden rule.

[bliink]

no debate. just pointing out who has the higher ground. a true soldier doesnt hide in schools and hospitals either.

edit: moreover, a wounded man is just as dangerous as an unscathed one, especially in close quarters (obviously). we dont have the full facts, we'd need to see the video. all we have is this journalists word.

edit2: waiiit wait. the journalist calls this insurgent a "prisoner." why the hell would the marine shoot him if he's already a prisoner, because hes faking dead. thats the stupidest thing ever, i doubt it worked out like how this guy is portraying it.

well, it wont be long before the video is leaked on to one of those repulsive 'snuff' sites, you can see it for yourself then.
As horribile as it is, I'm sure an argument cant really exist until all arguing parties have seen the video thats being argued over

[Tr0n]

It's war people deal with it.I think that marine should be put on trial and be punished...but again it is war.

[gh0st]

It's war people deal with it.I think that marine should be put on trial and be punished...but again it is war.
yeah none of us know what happened so all we can do is comment on the article itself.

[JimmehH]

I saw a US soldier shoot a trapped and wounded insurgent on Channel 5.

Well, the Iraqi was in an alley and it just showed the soldier shooting into the alley and saying that he (the Iraqi) wasn't a problem any more.

This was after a long gun fight with this man. And he had injured a few soldiers.

Although, to me, the Fallujah operation seems to have been a bit cocked-up.

[bliink]

Although, to me, the Fallujah operation seems to have been a bit cocked-up.

I read this in operation flashpoint:
"You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake."

[CptStern]

how can you all be so blase? the geneva accords (which the US signed) clearly says it is a war crime to shoot prisoners or wounded. The iraqis in question were both ... plus they were unarmed

they have it on tape, it'll be an open and shut case. He'll plead guilty, and will probably get a reduced sentence

[CptStern]

I saw a US soldier shoot a trapped and wounded insurgent on Channel 5.

Well, the Iraqi was in an alley and it just showed the soldier shooting into the alley and saying that he (the Iraqi) wasn't a problem any more.

This was after a long gun fight with this man. And he had injured a few soldiers.

Although, to me, the Fallujah operation seems to have been a bit cocked-up.

if it's the same soldier I'm thinking of then he was charged with murder ..I've seen the video as well

[Spartan]

Isn't this obvious? The soldier had been playing Teamfortress so much that he mistook the wounded man for a spy feigning death.

It's videogames that caused this.

[Hapless]

I'd just like to point out that the Geneva Conventions apply to UNIFORMED SOLDIERS fighting under the auspices of a nation. Not a ragtag group of insurgents and terrorists. Thank you, that is all.

[Absinthe]

Wow. Good job, moron.

[poksmote]

If you watch the tape you can see the two teams have no idea what is going on, and for all we know the iraqi could've been faking it only to draw a gun out from under him as they passed by.

The soldier in question isn't very bright if he's killing someone as a TV camera films it. But if the camera wasn't there, no one would ever have known or cared. This kinda thing happened all the time in Vietnam and it's happening now, as with any war where soldiers are trained to feel no remourse and belittle the enemy.

Those soldiers are probably scared as hell, and to them a dead possible threat is better than a living one. The iraqi terrorists are beheading american citizens with dull knives for christ's sake, it's not like they're exactly playing by the rules either.

I've got friends over there who have seen children ripped apart by AK rounds, or terrorist brain matter leak from a skull like yoke from an eggshell. Things are beyond ****ed up over there - the soldiers are doing whatever they can to just stay alive.

[falconwind]

Yes, this not only violates the Geneva Convention, but also, the Rules of Engagement, which states you cannot engage a target unless it is hostile.

The insurgents did not pose a threat, and therefore, no shots should have been fired at all.

As I remember it from CNN, the exact dialogue is as follows:

"He's f***ing faking he's dead. He's faking he's f***ing dead."
<gunshot>
"Well, he's dead now."

Now, just because he was lying very still and breathing doesn't mean he was faking it, as the marines deduced. He could very well have been unconscious from his wounds.

As it looks right now, it was a cold-blooded execution.

There shouldn't be too much trouble, as far as investigation and rulings, since it was ll caught on tape.

[falconwind]

My bad, here's the right dialogue:

He's f****** faking he's dead. He's faking he's f****** dead."
"Yeah, he's breathing."
<gunshot>
"Dead now."

[Javert]

do you think the iraqi "soldier" would be tried for anything after he shot the wounded marine? i doubt it. stern ill always throw my support inf ront of a us soldier over an iraqi one, no matter what the circumstances, though i admit that he should be punished
Regardless of what our enemy does to us, we do not stoop to their level. We set the example, not mire ourselves into that which we fight against.
Their actions irrelevant to ours. Clearly, we have different standards.

[Tr0n]

In war theres no such thing as standards....only alive and dead...win or lose. (btw, I don't mean this as we should just let it slip by or do what the enemy is doing.Just saying in war...it's about survival.)

[Eg.]

ok, the thing is the terrorsists have used bodies as cover for land mines, even those that are just wounded, secondly the video does not show the marine actually shooting him. yes, the marine shot him, but we dont see wha the wounded man was doing, clutching a grenade, or an ak, if that happened, i see no problem


the news and those talking about it carry it to negativly, OMg he committed a warcrime, well, not if the guy she shot was armed, anti-americans fill in the videos black with whatever baby-killing image they have of the US, and by the topic of this thread, u can see that

[CptStern]

I'd just like to point out that the Geneva Conventions apply to UNIFORMED SOLDIERS fighting under the auspices of a nation. Not a ragtag group of insurgents and terrorists. Thank you, that is all.


then why are they considering war crimes charges?

not one comment? I'm surprised Hapless, I'm especially curious as to your opinion

[Venmoch]

Lets just put it this way.

The US does not know the first thing about Peacekeeping. At all. Of course your going to alienate peeple driving round in hummers eyeing up all potential threats.

The UK have done this thing for ages. I remember seeing a group of soldiers getting taught Peacekeeping skills and it was stuff as simple as "If someone has a grenade, they are a threat to you and your squad, as soon as they throw the grenade, they are not a threat, the grenade is."

I still don't understand why the Americans talk with the UK about Peacekeeping. We've been dealing with terrorism for 20 years and know quite a lot about it......

[CptStern]

ok, the thing is the terrorsists have used bodies as cover for land mines, even those that are just wounded, secondly the video does not show the marine actually shooting him. yes, the marine shot him, but we dont see wha the wounded man was doing, clutching a grenade, or an ak, if that happened, i see no problem

this happened in a mosque there was no mine. And yes you do see the marine shooting him, do yourself a favour and read the article before making comments on it, you're coming across as a fool


the news and those talking about it carry it to negativly, OMg he committed a warcrime, well, not if the guy she shot was armed, anti-americans fill in the videos black with whatever baby-killing image they have of the US, and by the topic of this thread, u can see that


I've read it 3 times and I still havent been able to decipher what you're trying to say. You're either very young and hopelessly naive or you're a hypocrite and an ignorant fool. You get all hot and bothered when an american is killed yet when a US soldier murders an iraqi you try to justify it.

[^Ben]

Idiot solider.

Makes the rest of the army look bad.

Throw the book at him.

[Icarusintel]

maybe if you all were in iraq getting shot at you'd have more reason to comment, beyond that, it's easy to look at a situation from the outside and say what is right and wrong, but how is it from the inside?

[^Ben]

Do you wanna know how terrorists recruit more terrorists?

They use images like theese.

[CptStern]

maybe if you all were in iraq getting shot at you'd have more reason to comment, beyond that, it's easy to look at a situation from the outside and say what is right and wrong, but how is it from the inside?

still doesnt justify murder

[rkef]

still doesnt justify murder
Oh, sure it does. The new guiding ethic is that the world has changed, and all lessons learned from history are subject to re-evaluation or outright immolation. Summary execution is the new global justice.

[Hapless]

then why are they considering war crimes charges?

not one comment? I'm surprised Hapless, I'm especially curious as to your opinion

They are investigating POSSIBLE war crimes. We don't know what those crimes are, in particular. We also don't know exactly what went down in this situation. It's very easy to look at a video, which is one dimensional and only tells a part of the story, and draw conclusions. It will also be extremely difficult to prove up murder charges against a Marine in combat. I assume people are innocent until proven guilty up in Canada, too, aren't they Stern?

My opinion matters to you? I'm quite touched.... :o

[K e r b e r o s]

I saw the actual footage which encompassed a total of 15:00 minutes in my Windows Media Player.

After watching the squad jump from plain to plain, they get orders on their radio requesting they visit a previously occupied house. The first squad involved was not told Marines had previously occupied the home, on orders from a US Tank unit who had assumed their were wounded insurgents inside the house.

The second squad of US Marines arrives behind the first, coming out of the right side view of the Camera. After a brief two minute talk, the squad then moves together.

Apparently, into the last three minutes, this house/mosque is viewable. In the distance, a damaged tankette rolls by. The US Infantry dont seem to think anything of it, as their mostly looking at the ground trying to avoid cracks in the terrain.

On the last two minutes, their are within a good proximity of the house. Out of the left corner of the screen more US Marines are seen approaching the house. The two squads with the Camera man stop and yell to the other squad. The other squad, squats down and bunches around in a formation.

"Hey! Hey! What're are you guys?"

The other squad yells back,

"US Marines you dipshit -- I did'nt think more people were coming to this house. Is that what your here for too?"

The leader of the first squad motions for his unit to move out, and the second squad follows on orders by their first luietenant.

The first squad leader yells back,

"Yea -- we got a call, saying that their were insurgents in the house. Here to take 'em out."

The other squad in the left hand screen gets a motion from their Captain, and they soon too move out. This is where the NBC Footage picks up. The first and second squad form into a staggered column formation, and make way to the house. In the distance, an explosion is heard.

The other squad is now not viewable, as they've run to the other side of the house, anticipating the arrival of the other squads based on their initial proximity to the mosque.

When the first squad of marines arrive in front of the house, the other unit is there to greet them. They're both waiting on the opposite ends of the house, when one of the soldiers speaks from the squad opposite of the camera-crew.

"Hey, you guys almost got shot by a tank."

The first squads Captain returns conversation.

"Huh?"
-
"You guys were almost shot by a tank?"
-
"Tank...wha? Who sent you guys here?"
-
"Ugh, these guys in this tank--told us to come here. Said their were still some insurgents"
-
"Oh, are they in they're now?"
-
"Yea..."
-
"Wait... wait a moment--go in there carefully. I hear something"
-

Just then, the squad opposite of the Camera takes formation, and bangs through the entrance. The Squad with the Camera-men, gets signal, and follows in after.

Their, standing a couple meters away, are three marines already in the house.

"Hey guys, what're you here for?"

The first squads captain advances to the top right corner of the room, and his squad breaks out into a line formation in front of some of the bodies.

"Were here for wounded insurgents"

The captain answers.

The Camera-man then pans down a view of the soldier about to be shot.

From the back we can here.

"These are their dead and wounded. We got their weapons, and we were told by some tank group to come in here too. Guess they wanted us to scoop them off."

Then, we get the rest...

"Hey wait a moment...!"

"He's, he's ****ing not dead!"

"He's ****ing not dead, look he's breathing!"

"He's playing ****ing possum! He's not dead!"

"He's f***ing faking he's dead. He faking he's f***ing dead."

Then the marine, not visible on the Camera, is heard shooting his rifle. The head slams back from a round burst, and the bullets rip pretty cleanly through the mans skull.

The body goes instantly limp, and their is a light spray of dust and blood agains the wall were the head last was.

"He's dead now."

Was the last thing heard on the video.

[Sprafa]

"A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic."

[K e r b e r o s]

http://www.ogrish.com/attachments/2004/11/16/ogrish-dot-com-marine_shoots_wounded_pow_video.wmv

Heres the link to the video.

For those of you concerned, and about Ogrish's reputation, this is pretty...nill to anything I've seen of typical war footage.

The person shot is'int the one nearest to the camera. The person shot happens to be in the distance, and does make movement to an AK-74SU Compact. (Its quiet visible).

A marine observer [Captain] can be seen during the accusations of movement and "possum", approach the accuser from behind, and watch were this other soldier believes there's movement.

Its hardly graphic, and hardly painful for the man killed.

[gh0st]

The person shot is'int the one nearest to the camera. The person shot happens to be in the distance, and does make movement to an AK-74SU Compact. (Its quiet visible).

is it the dark thing leaning against the wall?

[K e r b e r o s]

Yep. Should have a lighter tin stock--but the shadow in the corner gets it.

[CptStern]

sorry I'll take the word of the guy at the scene over yours. I've watched the video several times and not once did I see a weapon anywhere near the wounded prisoners

it looks like cold blooded murder to me

[K e r b e r o s]

Its not cold-blooded murder. The Insurgent shot was not a part of the collected wounded, and because of this, was assumed to be KIA by the previous operators who controlled the mosque.

The squads discussing the situation dont overview directly which ones were to be taken prisoner, or which ones were killed. I think the marine was just being a little more cautious then he should've been, but here it is again, the point im trying to make.

The insurgents have been using trick after trick against US and Iraqi Personel. Of course its war, and I cant blaim them--but the man who shot the soldier dead, was wounded previously after checking a "dead" insurgents body. The corpse, was strapped down with an IED, and the man took shrapnel to the face.

I dont think he wanted to take a chance, of being this time, unlucky and obliterated because of a better and more well placed IED. I dont call this murder at all. Whats more, the prisoner, never ascertained his situation, by surrendering to begin with.

Technically, he was fair grounds.

[gh0st]

i agree kerberos, i doubt he will be punished for this. "cold blooded murder." what a farse.

[Icarusintel]

no one here seems to know army tactics either, when assaulting through the objective you're supposed to double tap every enemy whether they're alive or dead, can't take the chance of them getting up and shooting you, and it's not murder, it's called staying alive in a war zone

[origine]

hi all,

i think that fighting for its country is not a crime or terrorism, if some muslim army wants to teach democracy to americans and sends hundred thousands of soldiers, tanks, bombs, planes and kill even injured civilians in a church then i want to know what americans will do are they going to surrend just because this is the most powerful army in the universe?

sincerely i hate war but will never surrend.

[CptStern]

kerberos, gh0st there is no getting thru to you. You both gloss over the fact that the marine killed a wounded human being. I have no doubt in my mind that if the roles were reversed and it was a wounded US soldier shot at point blank range by a iraqi soldier you'd be screaming bloody murder.

The 2 of you represent a sad sorry state of the youth of america ..life is cheap to you. You wear your allegiances like a badge of honour that cant possibly be tarnish no matter how often your government scrapes the bottom of the ethics barrel.

[waedoe]

kerberos, gh0st there is no getting thru to you. You both gloss over the fact that the marine killed a wounded human being. I have no doubt in my mind that if the roles were reversed and it was a wounded US soldier shot at point blank range by a iraqi soldier you'd be screaming bloody murder.

The 2 of you represent a sad sorry state of the youth of america ..life is cheap to you. You wear your allegiances like a badge of honour that cant possibly be tarnish no matter how often your government scrapes the bottom of the ethics barrel.
a marine killed a wounded insurgent. thats justified. haha.. the canuck thinks he knows about the youth of america. congratulations!

[Kangy]

Good grief.

I don't know how anyone can justify this. It disgusts me these so called "liberators" are doing this to WOUNDED HUMAN BEINGS. It doesn't matter what the victim has been doing. He's wounded and unarmed, you don't shoot him anymore.

Ugh.

[CptStern]

a marine killed a wounded insurgent. thats justified. haha.. the canuck thinks he knows about the youth of america. congratulations!

this coming from someone who thinks creating a mod based on the horrors of the israeli/palestinian conflict is a good idea

ya you've got your finger on the pulse of america :upstare:

[CptStern]

a marine killed a wounded insurgent. thats justified. haha.. the canuck thinks he knows about the youth of america. congratulations!

this coming from someone who thinks creating a mod based on the horrors of the israeli/palestinian conflict is a good idea

ya you've got your finger on the pulse of america :upstare:

what's next? a mod based on the horrors of darfur? or how about one based in Abu gharib?

[lePobz]

since i'm back on the boards for a few days, i'll add my unwanted and politically disruptive views on the matter;

When france was invaded by Germany during WW2, they had a resistance army. They killed ze germans by planting roadside bombs, and were generally disruptive, blowing bridges up etc. America saw this French resistance army as being 'good' because they were killing Germans. The enemy.

Well, Iraq has been invaded by their enemy. America. The invasion has caused massive disruption to services throughout the country, and americans killing lots of civillians in the name of 'God' (not Allah, either) just doesn't make things much better from the average Iraqis perspective.

You can't call the Iraqi resistance fighters terrorists - they didn't go out to find innocent civillians on any other countries soil. They're defending their own. If America invaded my country, i'd probably do the same.

[bliink]

since i'm back on the boards for a few days, i'll add my unwanted and politically disruptive views on the matter;

When france was invaded by Germany during WW2, they had a resistance army. They killed ze germans by planting roadside bombs, and were generally disruptive, blowing bridges up etc. America saw this French resistance army as being 'good' because they were killing Germans. The enemy.

Well, Iraq has been invaded by their enemy. America. The invasion has caused massive disruption to services throughout the country, and americans killing lots of civillians in the name of 'God' (not Allah, either) just doesn't make things much better from the average Iraqis perspective.

You can't call the Iraqi resistance fighters terrorists - they didn't go out to find innocent civillians on any other countries soil. They're defending their own. If America invaded my country, i'd probably do the same.

The old saying "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" is 100% true..

I'd add to that, saying that no side can be correct in their judgment of either, due to the fact its completely based on perspective, and nothing else

[Icarusintel]

The old saying "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" is 100% true..

I'd add to that, saying that no side can be correct in their judgment of either, due to the fact its completely based on perspective, and nothing else

How true

[K e r b e r o s]

bliink, great point. CptStern, I've acknowledged your point already -- and I understand the grounds for it can be considered a war crime.

Just thought I'd tell you, that im not just listening to myself or the media's take. I've believed your point aswell.

[hasan]

I personally think all the people inside the mosque were actually civillians, not fighters.
Don't believe what the american military says ..

I'd add to that, saying that no side can be correct in their judgment of either, due to the fact its completely based on perspective, and nothing else
a bit offtopic, but I really hate it when people say that.
no, just because people have diffirent opinions on one thing doesn't mean all are right or no one is right. it just means some people are getting it wrong or don't have enough information; you being one of them.
didn't you earlier say
maybe if you all were in iraq getting shot at you'd have more reason to comment, beyond that, it's easy to look at a situation from the outside and say what is right and wrong, but how is it from the inside?

Maybe if you were an oridnary Iraqi citizen who saw his country getting ripped apart and his fellow citizens getting sprayed .. you'd have more reason to comment.

I love how americans are justified because they want to protect thier lives .. as if we (iraqis) are the ones who travelled hundreds of thousands of miles to thier country to attack them and kill them.

Do you wanna know how terrorists recruit more terrorists?

They use images like these.
So, you think there is no reason to fight America? what an idiot.
Do you wanna know how Americans recruit more idiots? they spew propaganda 24/7 .. telling them that americans are good and that terrorists fight america because they hate thier culture or hate freedom.
and when an evidence of american brutality surfaces .. you simply dismiss it and claim that terrorists put it out of context to recruit terrorists.

what is this context .. I wanna know. what part of America's actions in Iraq are good?

[bliink]

didn't you earlier say


no, I didn't say that. That was another user.

My point is still valid.
Your definition of a terrorist is and always will be skewed due to your perspective on the matter, as is your view on "freedom fighters"
There is no correct definition of either because the whole basis for both of those terms relies upon human perceptions and not simple 'fact'

[hasan]

ouch ouch .. right, it was another guy.
I mixed you with him cuz he said "How true" to your comment :P

[K e r b e r o s]

Well Hasan, it is your perspective that you believe. I believe, my own perspective. Perspectives, when voiced, become opinions.

Each to his own.

[hasan]

this coming from someone who thinks creating a mod based on the horrors of the israeli/palestinian conflict is a good idea
are you referring to the promised land?

hmm .. I'm thinking about a mod about Iraq :naughty:
the concept is already there .. a good starting point would be to replace combine models with marine models.

[falconwind]

"A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic."

Yay, Stalin.

And Hasan... don't be comparing the Combine to US Marines... that just ruins the game.

[K e r b e r o s]

Considering they cannot be compared. :D

[jverne]

i'm not supporting the US soldier, but war is war! that iraqi rebel should have seen it comming! i belive that fighting for months isn't really easy, especialy as the US soldiers arent the brightest of people! the geneva convention is more or less a bunch of crap invented by aristocrats! nobody really respect it! humans have always been cruel! altough i wouldnt like to be in such a situation, thats for sure!

the point is "in love and war, everything is alowed" or something like that!

[hasan]

And Hasan... don't be comparing the Combine to US Marines... that just ruins the game.
why? it makes it better :P
I mean C'mon, you killed marines in HL1 anyway.

and i'm not trying to make impossible comarisons .. this is the way I see it.

[K e r b e r o s]

It is impossible Comparisons. They're genetics are completely different, and the pictures taken from both the game, and the real life you h8, are'nt in the same contexts as they other.

Even your own Police kick down doors -- are any of us screaming "OMFG CANADIAN COMBINE!!1"

No. ^^

[hasan]

They're genetics are completely different,
:laugh:
and the pictures taken from both the game, and the real life you h8, are'nt in the same contexts as they other.

um, yes they are: opressive occupation raiding people's homes.
and the other one, a citizen lying on the ground in humiliation.

what context are you talking about?

[gh0st]

are you referring to the promised land?

promised land isnt around anymore i dont know why its in his sig.

[hasan]

it's dead? heh. good news (if true :P)

[Eg.]

are you referring to the promised land?

hmm .. I'm thinking about a mod about Iraq :naughty:
the concept is already there .. a good starting point would be to replace combine models with marine models.


wow, heavens forbid the marines use tactics when fighting, jesus christ man, do u want us to knock or to aske them to sit quietly? ur nuts

[hasan]

Why am I nuts? because I'm trying to defend my country (At least with words) agaisnt some idiots who came thousands of miles to invade it?

[Eg.]

are you referring to the promised land?

hmm .. I'm thinking about a mod about Iraq :naughty:
the concept is already there .. a good starting point would be to replace combine models with marine models.


wow, heavens forbid the marines use tactics when fighting, jesus christ man, do u want us to knock or to aske them to sit quietly?

and "laying on the ground in humilation", hes being arrested, he should be happy we dont chop off his head or shoot him the back ofd the head, maybe america should start doing that so people know not to F*Ck with us

[hasan]

wow .. double post .. n00b :P

oh and .. are you trying to justify the American oppression?

edit:
lol the second post had more content actually.
look you stupid american, you are already doing thigns worse than that.
actually, the beheadings were originally in retaliation to your attrocities, you idiot.

[Raziaar]

I'm a bit disheartened by this news. I hate it when things like this happens. It wasn't right what that soldier did. I still support the US military though. Of course it has its very rotten apples, every military does.

There are many people who are in the military who weren't good people before they joined, and aren't really going to be changed from that fact after they join. But there are alot of decent soldiers still out there, the majority.

[Eg.]

noob? double post, wow u are out of it.

http://massgraves.info/

http://www.slantpoint.com/mt-arx/2003/11/iraq_atrocities_in_full_color.php


oh yeah, cause all of that is just fake, btw, u suni or shiite?

[gh0st]

edit:
lol the second post had more content actually.
look you stupid american, you are already doing thigns worse than that.
actually, the beheadings were originally in retaliation to your attrocities, you idiot.
hah eg, you really brought out hasans true colors, well done. looks kind of like he needs a nap really. go clean of that ak47 hasan, america is just a few miles south my friend!

[Eg.]

http://massgraves.info/54.jpg

wow, we all know the graves were caused by that american

[hasan]

Eg., that just shows how stupid you are.

Anyway, newsflash: The sanctions on Iraq killed half a million child, when Madlin Albright was asked about this, she said she thinks it's worth the price.

[Eg.]

Eg., that just shows how stupid you are.

Anyway, newsflash: The sanctions on Iraq killed half a million child, when Madlin Albright was asked about this, she said she thinks it's worth the price.


so im an idiot for showing that american "oopses" are nothing compared to Saddams "oopses" , ok, im and idiot, Hilter was right to get rid of the jews, i see the light now

[hasan]

Do you know what a brutal muderer does to defend his position when he is stuck? he comapres himself to other murderers who were more brutal.

so, saddam is justified because of hitler, hitler is justified because of the way the white exterminated the native indians ... etc.

how smart.

[Tr0n]

Again....it's war guys...

The marine that shot the Iraqi was shot in the face himself the day before....Also add on the fact one of his fellow marines in the platoon was killed by one of those dead body boobie traps or whatever you want to call them.He was pretty much in a bad state of mind at the time....Seeing your own friend get blown up and then getting shot in the face yourself kinda does something to ya... :|

[Eg.]

Do you know what a brutal muderer does to defend his position when he is stuck? he comapres himself to other murderers who were more brutal.

so, saddam is justified because of hitler, hitler is justified because of the way the white exterminated the native indians ... etc.

how smart.

ok thats enough, we are not brutal, the arab world is, the arab world does not give a damn abouts its own population, they are expendable troops that cannot be linked back. have a mass or religious fanatics screaming jihad is the perfect was to keep ur hand clean and still hurt the third world.

not to mention ur wonderful record of human rights, hell women tsill cnat vote, and what was that, in saudi arabia, the richest one of all, they have madrases, where little children are only taught to hate the infedel and the rest of the world.

what happens to the mass graves in Iraq, nothing, no one givves a damn, where is the outcry from the arab world? there is none, but on every little chance you have u attack the US because u can. whats that, u change subjects whenever mass graves are pointed out, why? beacuse u know that is far worse than anyting one damn marine does.

better yet, with the hordes or fanatics that u guys produce every year, you can keep bombing the shit out of anything, asl long as it not ur land it fine. in isreal there are arab kids with bags of hand grenades that throw them at isreali soldeirs. they doent get shot becasue they are kids, but where is the out cry? when does aljeezera show the mother crying or the father weeping over their dead children? oh wait they do, but they forget to mention teh grenades

or better yet, you right paragaphs about the Evil USA, y do u hate us? y not leave us alone? because ur jealous. the biggest,richest nation on eath, and all u have is to rely on us. the western world made u rich by buying ur oil. no western world, no oil. but then again since were all either jews or christain, that doesnt matter because we are infelds.


and for the last time, on marine that goes and shoots a TERRORIST of all people gets treated as if he killed 20 babies. an arab blows up an embassy, nothingh happens. mass graves are dug, no one cares. GENOCIDE AND FREAKING MASS TORTURE are occuring all over teh arab world, but all u do is say the evil US does this and that and what not.

shut the hell up and get a education, or at least open ur eyes to ur own RACISM, most people dont say it, but yes saying christians are evil is racist, but no one says anything. funny thing is most of the arab world thinks that

[K e r b e r o s]

^Laying down the law.

>> ...

<<

Give that man a cigar!

::hides::

[hasan]

ok thats enough, we are not brutal, the arab world is, the arab world does not give a damn abouts its own population, they are expendable troops that cannot be linked back. have a mass or religious fanatics screaming jihad is the perfect was to keep ur hand clean and still hurt the third world.
That didn't make much sense. but I know what you mean. you think we are evil because we want to fight back at your opressions.
who si the terrorist? the one defending his own homeland, or the one travelling thousands of miles to attack other nations, control their future, and deplete thier resources?

not to mention ur wonderful record of human rights, hell women tsill cnat vote, and what was that, in saudi arabia, the richest one of all, they have madrases, where little children are only taught to hate the infedel and the rest of the world.
We hate our goverments .. unlike you.
Do you know why you follow your government despite it's evilness? because it's us who get hurt, not you.
for you, we are not humans. our blood is cheap.

You make a big fuss aobut nick berg, yet you forget that your army is killing Iraqis everyday.

what happens to the mass graves in Iraq, nothing, no one givves a damn, where is the outcry from the arab world? there is none, but on every little chance you have u attack the US because u can. whats that, u change subjects whenever mass graves are pointed out, why? beacuse u know that is far worse than anyting one damn marine does.
Ok, saddam was a brutal dictator. what does that have to do with the resistance? what does that has to do with the attrocities of the Americans?
NOTHING!
You just keep repeating this to make yourself feel good. Truth is, you are no less evil than saddam.

better yet, with the hordes or fanatics that u guys produce every year, you can keep bombing the shit out of anything, asl long as it not ur land it fine.
We are only retaliating to you .. you are the ones who started.

in isreal there are arab kids with bags of hand grenades that throw them at isreali soldeirs. they doent get shot becasue they are kids, but where is the out cry? when does aljeezera show the mother crying or the father weeping over their dead children? oh wait they do, but they forget to mention teh grenades
what propaganda and lies.
Stop watching Fox.

So, you want to kill our children, then you wonder why we HATE you?! how stupid.

or better yet, you right paragaphs about the Evil USA, y do u hate us? y not leave us alone? because ur jealous. the biggest,richest nation on eath, and all u have is to rely on us. the western world made u rich by buying ur oil. no western world, no oil. but then again since were all either jews or christain, that doesnt matter because we are infelds.
I hate you because you are evil, because you ruined my country, because you kill my people.
how hard is that to grasp?


and for the last time, on marine that goes and shoots a TERRORIST of all people gets treated as if he killed 20 babies. an arab blows up an embassy, nothingh happens. mass graves are dug, no one cares. GENOCIDE AND FREAKING MASS TORTURE are occuring all over teh arab world, but all u do is say the evil US does this and that and what not.
It's actually the other way around.
a man gets beheaded .. OMG THE EVIL MUSLIMS!!!! while your troops keep killing us and destroyingour houses and our infrastructure, yet nothing happens.

shut the hell up and get a education, or at least open ur eyes to ur own RACISM, most people dont say it, but yes saying christians are evil is racist, but no one says anything. funny thing is most of the arab world thinks that
If you are stupid then let me inform you that muslims and christians have been living together in the arab world for over a 1000 years.
during that period, non christians were killed in europe.
Jews escaped from europe and came to us, because they knew they can be safe under our rule.

You are the idiot who needs to open his eyes. your head is full of bullshit.

[Raziaar]

I hate you because you are evil, because you ruined my country, because you kill my people.
how hard is that to grasp?

It was much better under saddam. I mean, the economy was absolutely BOOMING, and the profits going to the small buisnesses and workers, and hundreds of thousands of people were not murdered by the government. People weren't tossed into wood chippers because they didn't like the regime.

Rebellions didn't happen! Well, only because they were squashed before they could begin, and the family members of rebels were murdered, including children for acting against saddam's regime.

All of this was wonderful, it was a true utopia in iraq. But all this changed because the Americans arrived hoping to remove the Iraqi's oh glorious and benevolent leader. We didn't mind that thousands of our own people were killed all the time in ways more horrible than most people can fathom. Just as long as it wasn't americans doing it.



If you couldn't tell... that was all sarcasm.

I guess ignorance is bliss.

[K e r b e r o s]

you think we are evil because we want to fight back at your opressions.

:rolling: Were you just hit by the Golden Corral fairy? You just missed everything he was talking about -- and since "he" was pretty concise about where his points were going, there's no debate in what his discussion was.

To reclarify, he was discussing that the Arab World is basically much more violent and oppressive then Western Society. Since there's not as much open Government based aggrevated death from within the United States, and considering the U.S. is roughly more of a free society then Iraq before we invaded -- I can say on no matter what term you argue, this would be a correct assesment.

Although, Canada's doing it better then us to some extent.

who si the terrorist? the one defending his own homeland, or the one travelling thousands of miles to attack other nations, control their future, and deplete thier resources?

Or the one Beheading people, car-bombing innocent civilians it says are being oppressed, and proclaiming a point absent war with America; making such radical statements outlying how ",its", trying to remove the Muslim world altogether? Further, and to add to this point, is apart of the "Iraqi Resistance", because most of the Al-Qaeda groups are Saddams ex-military counselmen.

Yea, that third options looking pretty good to select.

It'd be my choice anyway.

We hate our goverments .. unlike you.

Oh, I'm sorry ... is that why you hate us? Because we enjoy our state of living -- as opposed to yours?

Well, then that makes a whole lot more sense now. Uncle Sam, get the rest of America's War Machine ready! We need Men, Uniforms, Guns, Tanks, Planes, and Ships! America, today, we Liberate all the middle-east! /endsarcasm

Do you know why you follow your government despite it's evilness? because it's us who get hurt, not you.
for you, we are not humans. our blood is cheap.

Oh, thats up for interpretation. My Governments not evil.

However, you see that one over there behind the wall of those blackened ash mountain ranges; were a Volcanoe rages in the distance, and a horrible spirit of past stares down oppressively from his tower, ordering and building an army of pure evil and destruction to rid the world of all things living and peaceful?

Yea, thats an evil Government.

You are Humans, and your blood is not cheap to us. Remember, your not cooperating with us -- so we dont have much of you. It actually costs more for us to loose you, then it does Al-Qaeda.

... because your just more plentiful in Al-Qaeda ...

You make a big fuss aobut nick berg, yet you forget that your army is killing Iraqis everyday.

It was a military PsyOps video filmed at Abu-Ghairib.

Its been debunked.

what does that has to do with the attrocities of the Americans?

Oh, simple. In that, you cant say ours (Americans) were worse then Saddams. We've unfortunately been over-shadowed by not only Al-Qaeda, but Saddam's regime being a prior Command over your currently disputed country. But here they are, both the same today. So, it makes it even worse for Al-Qaeda.

Truth is, you are no less evil than saddam.

By what, debating with you? If that makes a man evil, you've got some control issues.

We are only retaliating to you .. you are the ones who started.

No. You now, changed your names from the "Iraqi Resistance", to, "Al-Qaeda". Now, it was retaliation in the beginning. Now, its our finishing.

Because, Al-Qaeda, attacked us. Here's the irony: They're even attacking your citizens.


I dont agree with that message! We arabs are'nt responsible for that kind of - PANG* Golden Corral Fairy* - why not just travel too, so, you want to kill our children, then you wonder why we HATE you?! how stupid.

OMFG HE SAID KILL CHILDREN JOO WANT TO GO BOMB IRAQ YOU HORRIBLE HORRIBLE MAN0RZ!!1

Oh, im sorry, I did'nt mean to mock you ... but anyway, you need to re-read his point. If for one minute you honestly believe from his description of the Arab World, as interpretation to kill your kids ... sadly I can say whatever he does do, will be consistently overshadowed on a daily basis.

Infact, I dont recall him mentioning a thing about killing your kids -- but he did mention, you, killing your own children, to ... kill other children. Here:

in isreal there are arab kids with bags of hand grenades that throw them at isreali soldeirs. they doent get shot becasue they are kids, but where is the out cry? when does aljeezera show the mother crying or the father weeping over their dead children? oh wait they do, but they forget to mention teh grenades

I do believe he was outlining your style of Propaganda.

Not murdering your kids.

I hate you because you are evil, because you ruined my country, because you kill my people.


We're not doing any of that, thank god.

It's actually the other way around.
a insurgent gets killed on TV .. OMG THE EVIL AMERICA!!!!

Corrected for your reaction.

Can I mock you again? Please? Jus-Just, one lone, you know ... "OMG EVIL AMERICA!!!!"?!

If you are stupid then let me inform you that muslims and christians have been living together in the arab world for over a 1000 years.

If he's stupid, why are you trying to "inform" him anyway?

By the way, thats not true. For nearly 4,000 years, the world buried itself under a string of barbarian invasions, conquests, and horrible attrocities.

during that period, non christians were killed in europe.
Jews escaped from europe and came to us, because they knew they can be safe under our rule.


If your foreshadowing the Holocaust, the Jews did'nt goto you. They protested in Britain after the war, and detonated a bomb that killed four guardsmen to the Prime Minister himself.

So in essence, the Jews came to us. The jews, had no where else to go, because places like France, War-Torn and Split Germany, Russia, and America, were'nt making any vacancies for the remainder of Europe's Jews.

We suggested going South, but noone South of Romania agreed.

The Egyptians supported Hitler's genocide. Read the Rommel Papers, and the Memoirs of Colonel Hans Von Luck.

The Muslim world, almost half-heartedly supported the elimination of the jews by the Germans, because the Jews, were the middle-easterner's gypsies.

Noone, wanted them. But they came to us. We gave them an answer. Then you, gave them hell.

[hasan]

Look son, out governments are evil, I know that. You have democracy, I know that. You have freedom, I know that.
What do you think I am? dude, I'm not stupid like you.

I am NOT talking about your society. I'm talking about what your gov't and your miltary is doing to us.

You talk about things without even having a clue.

First of all, about your terrorist comments, clicky here. :sniper: (http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?t=40533)
I don't feel like repeating myself for the 20th time.

I said we hate our governments, unlike you. Because he was accusing me of supporting our regiems while attacking yours. so I rpelied by saying no, I hate our governments, but it's YOU who support your evil gov't.

What's we've seen in AbuGharib and all is nothign compared to reality. it's much worse than this.
Don't think that I'm happy for saying this, it saddens me, but it's the truth.
I knew about this kidna stuff long beore the scandal.
Everybody who gets out of prison tells stories of the turtore. it's not a single isolated incident.

You know .. its' kinda funny, becasue you refuse to belive the testimonies of the many ordinary people .. the "victims", and believe the story of the military .. the agressor in this case.

When it comes to evilness, I don't really like comparing saddam to americans. the idea itself is just .. disgusting. having to choose between two evils.
trush is, saddam was better in some areas, while americans are better in other areas.
but look, americans have caused the death of over half a million children, and in this year and a half they were responsible for the deathes of soo many thousands of people (counting what we hear on the news gives us an estimate of atleast 14,000 or so, but some studies suggest up to 100,000 .. the exact number is not important). and this is just thier first year ..
it's true that saddam committed many attrocities, but he rules for 30 years ..
americans have only just "started".

ok now, let me give you a history lesson:
Muslims had a great civilizations .. (that's about 1200 years ago to 600 years ago), we were the center of the wrold. Baghdad was literally the center of scince, everybody went there to learn.
in that time .. europe was drawning in darkness really.
actually, I think you should've studied in your high school history classes that the crusades helped europe because they started importing our science :naughty:

then all the troubles started with the church because science was the work of the devil or something. then europe got rid of the church and went into secularism.

anyways. since that tiem till now, christians and jews were living with us in peace and all.

oh and, we didn't kill the jews, it's the zionists who came to our land, committed all sorts of horroble massacres to drive people out, then they brought settelers and established the so called state of israel.

[Raziaar]

Look son, out governments are evil, I know that. You have democracy, I know that. You have freedom, I know that.
What do you think I am? dude, I'm not stupid like you.

I am NOT talking about your society. I'm talking about what your gov't and your miltary is doing to us.

You talk about things without even having a clue.

First of all, about your terrorist comments, clicky here. :sniper: (http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?t=40533)
I don't feel like repeating myself for the 20th time.

I said we hate our governments, unlike you. Because he was accusing me of supporting our regiems while attacking yours. so I rpelied by saying no, I hate our governments, but it's YOU who support your evil gov't.

What's we've seen in AbuGharib and all is nothign compared to reality. it's much worse than this.
Don't think that I'm happy for saying this, it saddens me, but it's the truth.
I knew about this kidna stuff long beore the scandal.
Everybody who gets out of prison tells stories of the turtore. it's not a single isolated incident.

You know .. its' kinda funny, becasue you refuse to belive the testimonies of the many ordinary people .. the "victims", and believe the story of the military .. the agressor in this case.

When it comes to evilness, I don't really like comparing saddam to americans. the idea itself is just .. disgusting. having to choose between two evils.
trush is, saddam was better in some areas, while americans are better in other areas.
but look, americans have caused the death of over half a million children, and in this year and a half they were responsible for the deathes of soo many thousands of people (counting what we hear on the news gives us an estimate of atleast 14,000 or so, but some studies suggest up to 100,000 .. the exact number is not important). and this is just thier first year ..
it's true that saddam committed many attrocities, but he rules for 30 years ..
americans have only just "started".

ok now, let me give you a history lesson:
Muslims had a great civilizations .. (that's about 1200 years ago to 600 years ago), we were the center of the wrold. Baghdad was literally the center of scince, everybody went there to learn.
in that time .. europe was drawning in darkness really.
actually, I think you should've studied in your high school history classes that the crusades helped europe because they started importing our science :naughty:

then all the troubles started with the church because science was the work of the devil or something. then europe got rid of the church and went into secularism.

anyways. since that tiem till now, christians and jews were living with us in peace and all.

oh and, we didn't kill the jews, it's the zionists who came to our land, committed all sorts of horroble massacres to drive people out, then they brought settelers and established the so called state of israel.

Your people hated your government, but seemed rather conent about never being able to oust them? Didn't seek outside aid?

[Tr0n]

oh and, we didn't kill the jews, it's the zionists who came to our land, committed all sorts of horroble massacres to drive people out, then they brought settelers and established the so called state of israel.BTW, It was the UN (It might be the British...I dunno) that gave the jews the land.

[Raziaar]

Look son, out governments are evil, I know that. You have democracy, I know that. You have freedom, I know that.
What do you think I am? dude, I'm not stupid like you.

I am NOT talking about your society. I'm talking about what your gov't and your miltary is doing to us.

You SOOO contradicted yourself here. Here you say you're not against american society, just the government... but if you look here... You hate americans, no matter what they are or what they do, for simply being american.

When it comes to evilness, I don't really like comparing saddam to americans. the idea itself is just .. disgusting. having to choose between two evils.

Says much about yourself. You're pathetic. I don't think anyone here hates the Iraqi people. I certainly don't. But you... you my friend, you hate americans. Simply because they are different than you are. You don't care if they are against their government, or not entirely for what's going on... you just hate them, think they are evil, simply because they are westerners.

[K e r b e r o s]

Look son, out governments are evil, I know that. You have d(Capital D, Thing)emocracy, I know that. You have freedom, I know that.
What do you think I am? d(Capital D, your starting a new sentence) ude, I'm not stupid like you.

First, before calling me stupid, correct your spelling.

I said we hate our governments, unlike you.

Oh, I'm sorry ... is that why you hate us? Because we enjoy our state of living -- as opposed to yours?

Well, then that makes perfect sense! :D

Because he was accusing me of supporting our regiems while attacking yours.

Was there going to be a "Y" before, "our?"

He was'nt accusing you of anything. Infact, I dont recall that he ever did. Now, im sure based off of personal interpretation you could find where it exists -- so, quote him for it, and I'll see for myself.

Remember, I dont have to quote or look for anything -- your providing this information, so you should be providing its source.

but it's YOU who support your evil gov't.

Oh, thats up for interpretation. My Governments not evil.

However, you see that one over there behind the wall of those blackened ash mountain ranges; were a Volcanoe rages in the distance, and a horrible spirit of past stares down oppressively from his tower, ordering and building an army of pure evil and destruction to rid the world of all things living and peaceful?

Yea, thats Mordor. That's an evil government.

I hate our governments, but it's YOU who support your evil gov't.

So, you hate your government, but you think we support an evil one.

... does that, leave a chance possibly, you like us? Perhaps, without a conclusion ... um, ... Maybe ... you just happen to "neutrally"like ... evil?


What's we've seen in AbuGharib and all is nothign compared to reality. it's much worse than this.

Whoa, is me. Totally, like dude, whoa. Extreme whoa! Through like, a metal pipe man, whoa!

You agreed with me? For once?! ... whoa!

Don't think that I'm happy for saying this, it saddens me, but it's the truth.

Really ... ? So your coming clean, are'nt you?

Yea! You know what? If you come clean, im coming clean! We could just sit over a nice Canadian Oak table, and discuss these issues with tears and smiles -- and you know what? You get to choose the food; I dont care what we eat or drink, or what games we play -- but coming clean ... peace even ... brings a tear to my eye.

You'll acknowledge what you did wrong ... I'll acknowledge what I did wrong ...

I knew about this kidna stuff long beore the scandal.

You did ...?! So did I ... it all happened before the Scandal too. Nick Berg, was apparently killed right as the Scandal started.

... and the beheadings? Long before Nick Berg -- interesting -- I cant believe your finally going to acknowledge ...

Yea, I guess I should've said this before. Maybe I was wrong about somethings. Maybe ... ju-just maybe ... [WACK* Golden Corral Fairy ... Everybody who gets out of prison tells stories of the turtore. it's not a single isolated incident.

!?

You know .. its' kinda funny, becasue you refuse to belive the testimonies of the many ordinary people .. the "victims", and believe the story of the military .. the agressor in this case.

Were are your victims testimonies ...? ... and if their testimonies, they would most likely look like a Judicial Response. Ordinary People are'nt locked up in Abu Ghairib. Normal people, just dont shoot at us.

Military, the aggressor? No, we have this rule it's, "dont fire until fired upon" and it inherently flaws your logic.

When it comes to evilness, I don't really like comparing saddam to americans. the idea itself is just .. disgusting. having to choose between two evils.

Well, then dont. The Insurgency is mostly made up of Saddams Baath Party loyalists, and his escaped military advisory. So technically, you are comparing them -- have compared them -- and support one already.

trush is, saddam was better in some areas, while americans are better in other areas.

But see, we've asked you about this before. We've asked, what made Saddam better, in these area's you claim?

Technically, if your going to say, "No insurgency", I'd have to say, his advisors and loyalists, are the Insurgency.

but look, americans have caused the death of over half a million children, and in this year and a half they were responsible for the deathes of soo many thousands of people

But look ... do you got a source?

(counting what we hear on the news gives us an estimate of atleast 14,000 or so, but some studies suggest up to 100,000 .. the exact number is not important)

Well theres an even bigger flaw in your logic. If it does'nt matter, what are you argueing then?

[Eg.]

wow, the arabs had a good run 600 years ago, who cares! just because you had a good run in the past means nothing now, that thinking is a long the lines saying arabs should retake spain! and europe, for its stinking rotting pitt, still some how managed to colonize ur lands,

and how did we destroy iraq? i would think a majority of people in iraq would rather have wanted the US to invade instead of having saddam mass torture people and whats that word, genocide??

yeah, i think 100k is a lot bigger than 14k. 100k people did not die, its more like 20k, but of course iraq only has 23 million, so if half a million people dissapear under saddam, why not blame it on the us?

[CptStern]

this symbol ---> :upstare: ...doesnt do my reaction to Eg's post any justice ...dear god it's like reading while shoving glass slivers in my eyes.

[Tr0n]

this symbol ---> :upstare: ...doesnt do my reaction to Eg's post any justice ...dear god it's like reading while shoving glass slivers in my eyes.Can I shove glass slivers in your eyes? :P

[CptStern]

nah you'd enjoy a bit too much, ya sick little monkey!!!!! :E

[C-O-N-Spiracy]

You failed to mention why he did what he did.

The day before the Mosque raid, a Marine from the same unit was tending to a booby-trapped "dead" body and got killed. I'd do the same thing that marine did and kill him off...

First of all, you talk about Marines committing a war crime yet you fail, again, to mention the fact that faking dead is also a war crime.. bet ya didnt know that did ya? Yep, its a crime.

But, never mind the crime.. who they gonna call? The "war" police? Lets focus on one thing.. Its either you or them, your life or theirs..
See you think that if you were in a warzone youre going to worry about committing a war crime?.. Hell no, its do or die.. and id bet my life away that if you were scared as shit, been in Iraq for over a year, possibly extending past your contract, havent seen your family in God knows how long, and ready to get the hell out of there, that youd do the same thing to ensure youre going to live to see another day go by. You're going to worry about what a damn warcrime?? FUUUUUUUCK that.

Now, im not saying that because the terrorists arent following the same rules of engagement, legal rules of engagement, that we have, we should not follow our own.. all im saying is, we must maintain the ROE but when it comes to sacrificing our men for a necessary but not, or should not be, a highly prioritized list of laws of conflict, our soldiers are far more important and should not be put in jeapardy because some asshole wants to roll over and play dead. Who knows the potential that terrorist had.

So, I say, that the Marine doesnt need punishment, he needs a damn medal on his shoulder.

[el Chi]

Your people hated your government, but seemed rather conent about never being able to oust them? Didn't seek outside aid?
Many people hated Saddam's regime, but it's very difficult to "seek outside aid" when you'd get arrested and/or killed for doing so in such a repressive situation. They weren't content to just lay back and take it, it's simply not that easy.

BTW, It was the UN (It might be the British...I dunno) that gave the jews the land.
I think it had previously been British land - some of it at least - and then after WW2 the UN designated it territories which it subsequently (and relatively swiftly) expanded out of. Check here (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/is.html) for more.

[Raziaar]

Many people hated Saddam's regime, but it's very difficult to "seek outside aid" when you'd get arrested and/or killed for doing so in such a repressive situation. They weren't content to just lay back and take it, it's simply not that easy.

Yeah. I understand that, and its a point I made earlier in this thread. But what I was getting at, is that they are so AGAINST the US removing saddam from power. And now think that becaus he's gone and it was the US that did it... everything is the worst its ever been in the history of the countries history. Fact is... it wouldn't matter who removed saddam, you'd still have all the same problems, even if it wasn't a western country that helped remove him.

[Mithrandir2]

God, i would've shot that sand negroes ass the meoment i saw him twitch.
You guys have no idea what its like over there, constantly on the alert, bullets wizzing by you, you see your friends get nailed. And then you see a wounded Iraqi and you think "**** them" and shoot him. i mean WHAT THE ****!?!?! your perspetive would be way different on this if you were over there, and i am 100% sure the Iraqis would've done teh same thing, damit, what the hell is wrong with you ppl

[Wraith]

i ahte america and i grow more and more ashamed of this country every day.

i hope i can mvoe to canada when i get older.

[seinfeldrules]

i ahte america and i grow more and more ashamed of this country every day.

i hope i can mvoe to canada when i get older.


Need a bus ticket?

[C-O-N-Spiracy]

i ahte america and i grow more and more ashamed of this country every day.

i hope i can mvoe to canada when i get older.

The grass is always greener on the other side.. youre young kid, youll find out soon enough.

[Raziaar]

God, i would've shot that sand negroes ass the meoment i saw him twitch.
You guys have no idea what its like over there, constantly on the alert, bullets wizzing by you, you see your friends get nailed. And then you see a wounded Iraqi and you think "**** them" and shoot him. i mean WHAT THE ****!?!?! your perspetive would be way different on this if you were over there, and i am 100% sure the Iraqis would've done teh same thing, damit, what the hell is wrong with you ppl

Cut out the racism dude.

[jverne]

most arab sience was imported from china, the far east and extracted from the old greeks during the middle ages! the first crusade was started because european feudalist trade with the arab world but then the middle east were overrun by barbaric tribes (cant remember their name, starting with the letter "S" i think) therefor ending trade relations betwen the two worlds!

what i found to be really funny is the assasination of Theo Van Gogh! the "muslim" terrorists kill him, causing the dutch to burn mosques and then the "muslims" threaten to burn christian churches if the burning of mosques don't stop! thats idiotism not terrorism! it really bothers me!

[Absinthe]

God, i would've shot that sand negroes ass the meoment i saw him twitch.
You guys have no idea what its like over there, constantly on the alert, bullets wizzing by you, you see your friends get nailed. And then you see a wounded Iraqi and you think "**** them" and shoot him. i mean WHAT THE ****!?!?! your perspetive would be way different on this if you were over there, and i am 100% sure the Iraqis would've done teh same thing, damit, what the hell is wrong with you ppl

I'm sure that my perspective on rape would also be different if I was a child rapist.

Doesn't make it any more right.

[Shad0hawK]

of course people all hot to make the US look bad do not mention the fact that a common tactic the US soldiers are encountering is terrorists playing dead, then jumping up and shooting soldiers.

i have seen the film, when the soldier is saying "he's playing dead" you can hear the ALARM in his voice. as a veteran myself(1CAV 489th ENG BN, USAR 1987-91), i can attest that in that situation you do not take chances. i would have popped him as well...and done my best to deal with it by consoling myself with the fact it was probobly him or me/mybuddies.

you dont have minutes or even seconds to ponder what to do, you take care of the situation ASAP or you and/or your buddies in your squad will die...and yes it IS that simple...when your there and not being a monday morning quarterback or simply using this for fodder to push a political agenda!

BTW the french army shot up a bunch of unarmed demonstrators, where is the "outrage" about that? why are we not seeing news of this plastered all over the place? and while we are along this line, where was the great outpouring of concern for the "average iraqi" when saddam was killing them by the hundreds of thousands?

[Farrowlesparrow]

Talk about hot topic...Lets just cool it down with a friendly press of the magical button.