Al Fallujah

[hasan]

ok, thread came late ..

The attack on the city started about .. 3 days ago (well since longer, in reality, preparations and daily bombings has been going on for weeks)
for those who don't know anything, or have huge misonceptions (i.e. if you watch .. Fox .. all the time?) should read this:
http://www.islamonline.net/english/In_Depth/Iraq_Aftermath/2004/11/article_04.shtml

This is the second attempt to enter the city, the first one was last April, which ended by a defeat for the Amerians.
This is their coming back .. the second attempt.

Rage is now all over the place for Muslims .. and these are special religous nights for Muslims, I pray for Fallujah and the Mujahideen every night, and so do millions.
if you just know how I feel .. because I can't describe it. I had the same feelings during the beginning of the war in 2003.
I feel anger, sadness, rage, fury, but I also feel a confidence in victory. And I feel my faith growing stornger .. I also feel enthusiasm for Jihad.
"And when the believers saw the allies, they said: This is what Allah and His Apostle promised us, and Allah and His Apostle spoke the truth; and it only increased them in faith and submission.
Among the believers are men who are true to the covenant which they made with Allah: so of them is he who accomplished his vow, and of them is he who yet waits, and they have not changed in the least"

anywayz, Americans are claiming they are gonna win in 2 days :rolleyes: they already claim they have over %70 (or was it %75?) of the city.

Ofcourse with no press there -except the one embedded with the occupation forces- the americans can lie freely. especially with no Al Jazeera in the city; Al Jazeera has been banned since 3 monthes. I also expect the Americans threatened Al Jazeera to target thier crew if they go to Fallujah or something. Because last time, part of the cease fire agreement was that Al Jazeera correspondent leaves the city.

Among their claims, which are pretty much all lies, are: finding a slaughterhouse (rofl), Zarqawi fled the city (yeah, because he doesn't even exist), most of the mujahideen are tryng to negotiate surrender. etc.

ofcourse, in this time, %90 of the pupolation already fled the city by the time the attack started. there are probably still about 40,000 people there however. (if they didn't leave yet)

oh and btw, if you haven't done so yet, what are you waiting for?
READ THE ARTICLE!!!!!


By Firas Al-Atraqchi
Freelance Columnist
11/11/2004

As citizens of Fallujah start to bury their dead in makeshift burial grounds freshly dug in the outskirts of the city, it may be little comfort for them to know that the name of their city will go down in history.

Stalingrad and Warsaw during World War II, the Alamo in 1836, the Massada in 70 CE and Leipzig during the Thirty Years War are just some of the cities that have been besieged, starved or bombarded throughout history. All played key roles in the development of their respective countries’ histories and all are the basis of folk stories—and in some cases, Hollywood lore.

Fallujah is the latest addition.

Since April 2003, when US forces declared victory in invading and occupying Iraq and unseating its government, Fallujah has borne witness to a number of attacks which have killed hundreds of civilians, including women and children.

When one reviews the chronology of events concerning Fallujah in the North American press, one finds that the starting point of so-called “trouble” is usually March 2004, when four heavily-armed private defense contractors were killed and then publicly displayed in the streets of the city.


However, this is a gross misrepresentation of the events that shaped the city into the stronghold of resistance against a foreign occupation and does not delve into the reasons why such hatred and inhumanity was put on display in the case of the contractors.

The name of Fallujah, in reality, became a newspaper item on April 29, 2003 when dozens of Iraqi demonstrators were massacred by US troops. World press reports put the number of Iraqi dead at 20, with some 75 more wounded. At the time, US troops prevented medical assistance from reaching the wounded and claimed the demonstrators were armed and fired at US troops.

The killing and wounding of nearly 100 Iraqi civilians was cited as self-defense.

A day later, three more Iraqi civilians were killed and 16 wounded.

Human Rights Watch investigated the two incidents:

Significantly, Human Rights Watch did not find conclusive evidence of bullet damage on the school where U.S. soldiers were based during the first incident, placing into serious question the assertion that they had come under fire from individuals in the crowd. In contrast, the buildings across the street facing the school had extensive evidence of multi-caliber bullet impacts that were wider and more sustained than would have been caused by the “precision fire” with which the soldiers maintain they responded, leading to the civilian casualties that day. Witness testimony and ballistics evidence suggest that U.S. troops responded with excessive force to a perceived threat.

In the second incident on April 30, protesters admitted throwing rocks, and one broke the window of a U.S. military vehicle, injuring a soldier. But there was no clear evidence of shooting from the crowd, again suggesting that U.S. forces responded with disproportionate force.

Those incidents convinced Iraqis that all the talk of liberation and democracy was little more than a smokescreen for occupation and wholesale depletion of Iraq’s resources and manpower.


Last April, when US troops attempted to take the city, some 800 people were killed and more than 2000 wounded. Iraqi sources said that hundreds of civilians were killed in that assault—which ended when US forces were forced to retreat due to stiff resistance and an international outcry.

But US military sources scoffed at the reports of civilians dead. Liars, they called the people of Fallujah.

In late October, however, an independent website that routinely reports the civilian and military body counts in Iraq said the US siege of Fallujah last April caused the deaths of 600 civilians, including 300 children.

Press spokesman of Iraq Body Count (IBC) John Sloboda said data recently released to the public by the Iraqi Health Ministry had allowed IBC to resolve a problem they have been struggling with for months: “How to reconcile casualty figures reported by local doctors of 800 total dead with a much lower estimate, [280 dead] produced in short order by the Iraqi Health Ministry (IHM).”

More civilian deaths, more denials by the US military, and more wilful distortion of the facts on the ground by US media. An exercise in searching for a meagre mention of the IBC report in North American media would prove fruitless and frustrating.

In the period following the US military retreat from Fallujah, the city came under a near-nightly barrage of artillery and aerial assaults. Dozens of civilians were killed and maimed, but US media continued to ignore the carnage inflicted on the civilian population of the city.

While Arab television stations from Mauritania to Oman showed—once again—near-nightly video of children being pulled from under the rubble of destroyed buildings, blood-stained hospitals filled with the miniature carcasses of eight- and nine-year-old children and their mothers, and the desperate wails of parents forced to bury their young, US media continued to use the catchphrases “US forced target insurgents in Fallujah” or “Terrorist safe houses have been destroyed by US warplanes.”

In the latest attack on Fallujah, in which US infantry supported by air power and several tank and armored brigades have taken nearly 70 percent of the city, there have been reports of massive civilian casualties. On November 8, the International Committee for the Red Cross (ICRC) expressed dismay that doctors and support medical staff had been targeted, that food and medical provisions were running low in the city, that US forces disallowed doctors from reaching the wounded, that the last remaining ambulance was blown up by US forces, and that refugees from the city had no access to medical supplies.

Nevertheless, US media continues its selective reporting methods and ignores the plight of Fallujah’s civilians.

On November 10, the Iraqi Red Crescent Society (the equivalent of the Red Cross) reported that a humanitarian crisis was brewing in Fallujah.

According to the Society, a pregnant woman and her child died in a refugee camp outside Fallujah after the mother unexpectedly aborted and no doctors were available to treat her.


Firdaws al-Obeidi, an official from the Society, told Reuters, “From a humanitarian point of view it’s a disaster, there’s no other way to describe it. And if we don’t do something about it soon, it’s going to spread to other cities,” she said.

The Iraqi Red Crescent Society just reported that a woman and her three daughters were trying to escape the carnage in Fallujah, but their home was hit by US bombardment earlier this week and all died.

Still, US media ignores.

So, it isn’t surprising when my inbox is inundated with emails from well-wishing Americans who spare no words to exclaim their joy that Fallujah is finally being destroyed. Civilian casualties? No problem; it’s their fault, say these emailers. It is the fault of the Iraqi civilians that they stayed in their homes—where they have been for generations—and did not leave when they were told of the impending invasion. Never mind this is their country.

When these columns reveal the killing of civilians, this writer is called a liar, an Islamo-fascist, unobjective, on and on. “Why don’t you print the facts,” one angered emailer wrote, citing the statements of the US military in Fallujah as the prime example of what he believes fact-telling to be.

In all fairness, however, there are some emails which decry the US military action and the deaths of civilians caught with nowhere to go. But these are a minority. My job is done when these become the majority.

Until then, the name of Fallujah will resonate in Iraqi history. Already, we have seen the rise of a new resistance group in Iraq called the Mujahideen of Fallujah. The US military actions in Fallujah are refueling an anti-occupation movement in Iraq that will soon transform from the passive to the aggressive.

Expect more groups to pledge revenge for Fallujah, more kidnappings, more attacks, more violence.


go ahead and flame

edit: bolded some stuff in the article

[Mr-Fusion]

An Australian media commentator has already been silenced for trying to expose the truth behind what's going on.

Australian writer, ex-diplomat Tony Kevin, perhaps best known in recent years for his determined efforts to uncover the truth behind the sabotage and sinking of the refugee boat SIEVX, has been silenced by crypto-techno disturbances, as he was due to speak out about the US assault on the citizens of Fallujah today. Kevin wonders to what extent Australian security authorities might be involved in, or might have authorised, this interference with his right to free speech, and CNN's right as an America-based international television broadcaster to broadcast his view that the present US attack on Fallujah is a war crime ?


http://www.adelaide.indymedia.org.au/newswire/display/7473/index.php

More war crimes by the Americans but unfortunately they'll never be held accountable for the murder of so many civillians.

[K e r b e r o s]

Go buy a room you two. Its taken forever for you to post something like this Hasan, and, im impressed. Theirs not been much for you to go by.

:D Americans do have control of the city, and namely, because your freedome fighters fled.

Oh, im sure will get more videos of Roadside bombs and beheadings/executions, but your fights coming down to a close. :D

You might be feeling ethusiasm for Jihad, but thats only when you dont sleep well and find yourself eating Chili for breakfast and Cereal for Dinner.

Get on the right time-scale! :D Jihad was soooooo 2001.

[hasan]

not you again -_-

[K e r b e r o s]

What? You posted Al Fallujah, and I've been watching and reading for about as far as Al-Jazeera (my neighbor is married to an Iranian Citizen), and all of them have said the US has control of the Town, and most of the Freedome Fighters are either:


*Caught in Pockets, but are surrounded

or

*Have fled, and are, fleeing


:D

[hasan]

:)
We'll see.

According to the Americans (who are dominating the media): the mujahideen have all fled.
but then if that's true, why didn't the battle end yet? there are 20,000 marines, and 10,000 of them are activly engaged inthe fighting. surly they can't lose to a couple of 300 or something :rolleyes:

According to the Mujahideen: the battle is intense, they are determined to win or die.
now, that makes more sense, and better explains why the bttles are still going; because the resistance is fierce.

also, there have been some contradictions in what the americans said, yesterday they said 178 americans were wonded, today they said 18 killed and 67 wonded. but about 200 wonded soldiers were transported to a military hospital in germany.

edit: quick google news search

http://www.boston.com/dailynews/316/world/18_Americans_killed_178_wounde:.shtml << 178
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4609752,00.html << 69

Edit2:
the only source for your false info is the american army. how credible!

[Tropico]

If it was 20 years ago there would be no news at all.

[Kashmiri]

May God help them....

Iraq: the unthinkable becomes normal
By John Pilger :)

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7274.htm


"What does it take to shock them out of their baffling silence?" asked the playwright Ronan Bennett in April after the US marines, in an act of collective vengeance for the killing of four American mercenaries, killed more than 600 people in Fallujah, a figure that was never denied. Then, as now, they used the ferocious firepower of AC-130 gunships and F-16 fighter-bombers and 500lb bombs against slums. They incinerate children; their snipers boast of killing anyone, as snipers did in Sarajevo.


............

Bush won by invoking, more skilfully than Kerry, the fear of an ill-defined threat. How was he able to normalise this paranoia? Let's look at the recent past. Following the end of the cold war, the American elite - Republican and Democrat - were having great difficulty convincing the public that the billions of dollars spent on the war economy should not be diverted to a "peace dividend". A majority of Americans refused to believe that there was still a "threat" as potent as the red menace. This did not prevent Bill Clinton sending to Congress the biggest "defence" bill in history in support of a Pentagon strategy called "full-spectrum dominance". On 11 September 2001, the threat was given a name: Islam.

Anyway, this is a good article, written by one of the best reporters in the world... John Pilger :P ....., please do read it.

[CptStern]

Go buy a room you two. Its taken forever for you to post something like this Hasan, and, im impressed. Theirs not been much for you to go by.

:D Americans do have control of the city, and namely, because your freedome fighters fled.

Oh, im sure will get more videos of Roadside bombs and beheadings/executions, but your fights coming down to a close. :D

You might be feeling ethusiasm for Jihad, but thats only when you dont sleep well and find yourself eating Chili for breakfast and Cereal for Dinner.

Get on the right time-scale! :D Jihad was soooooo 2001.

kerberos stop wasting time with your useless posts. You bring absolutely nothing to the table except your propaganda laden vitriol.

Interesting read Hasan, but just remember this is not a holy war ...more non muslims are against the war than you think, dont let this turn into a religious war because it isnt: it's motivations are far older than that: Greed

[Gray Fox]

Someone give me a reuters rapport, or the guardian, or from some emirat newsstation that isn't as biased as Al Jazeera(forgot the name), all I see here is info from Islamic extremists or uber rightwing Americans.

[Tr0n]

Can't read the article...sorry..

I have A.D.D. :P

[Eg.]

listen, if u talked to teh terrosist, ull find our their racists, do u wnat to pray for racists. if ur white, or a non muslism, u should convert or die. i love how the remaining terrorists syat that all the american will die, and they are fleeing, yada yada yada, bu the thing is, their doomed, and they just want as much media attention as possible so that people feel sorry for them. theri are PLENTY of pictures of dead citizens that are killed by the terrorists


your quote

"I feel anger, sadness, rage, fury, but I also feel a confidence in victory. And I feel my faith growing stornger .. I also feel enthusiasm for Jihad."

jihad, hmmmmm thats, not really legal to say, since it implies hit the USA (these days)

[Sprafa]

listen, if u talked to teh terrosist, ull find our their racists, do u wnat to pray for racists. if ur white, or a non muslism, u should convert or die. i love how the remaining terrorists syat that all the american will die, and they are fleeing, yada yada yada, bu the thing is, their doomed, and they just want as much media attention as possible so that people feel sorry for them. theri are PLENTY of pictures of dead citizens that are killed by the terrorists


your quote

"I feel anger, sadness, rage, fury, but I also feel a confidence in victory. And I feel my faith growing stornger .. I also feel enthusiasm for Jihad."

jihad, hmmmmm thats, not really legal to say, since it implies hit the USA (these days)



OMG, you're a dumbass!

[PXM5000]

I'm glad bush held on to power, with his stupid assualts he is weakening the us militaries might everyday, and at the end of the day america will flee Iraq.

[SunHawk]

The attack on Fallujah has managed to kick out a lot of the "freedom fighters"..and lest anyone forget, the forces have also located and released Iraqi civilians , held as hostages by the "rebels" who seem to have no compunction about violating the Koran's own tenets against harming unarmed and non combatants.

You conveniently omitted that..I wonder why.

These same Iraqi civilians were beaten, tortured, starved, abused.

Or do you wish to tell us that the cold blooded and pre meditated murder of hostages taken by these "rebels" is sanctified by the Koran?

The "mujahadeen" are very brave murdering unarmed people tied and gagged...when it comes to fighting armed and armoured military troops who have the capacity to shoot back, they turn tail and run with their tails between their legs.

Of course with no press there -except the one embedded with the occupation forces- the americans can lie freely. especially with no Al Jazeera in the city; Al Jazeera has been banned since 3 monthes. I also expect the Americans threatened Al Jazeera to target thier crew if they go to Fallujah or something. Because last time, part of the cease fire agreement was that Al Jazeera correspondent leaves the city.

Because Al Jazeera are giving aid and comnfort to terrorists, providing them with publicity and propaganda. When they start reporting the truth, they will be allowed back.

I feel anger, sadness, rage, fury, but I also feel a confidence in victory. And I feel my faith growing stornger .. I also feel enthusiasm for Jihad.

So you are an avowed sympathiser of murderers?? Posting this on an AMERICAN board?? Using AMERICAN servers and AMERICAN technology to post your tripe?? Does the word hypocrite sound familiar to you???

Actually, traitor is more apt.

You're posting this on a board run by Americans whose sons and daughters are in this battle?? Hoping they'll be killed??

Are you completely stupid???

Among their claims, which are pretty much all lies, are: finding a slaughterhouse (rofl), Zarqawi fled the city (yeah, because he doesn't even exist), most of the mujahideen are tryng to negotiate surrender. etc.

Whatever credibility you claim to have just went right out the window with that one statement.

However, this is a gross misrepresentation of the events that shaped the city into the stronghold of resistance against a foreign occupation and does not delve into the reasons why such hatred and inhumanity was put on display in the case of the contractors.

The attack was coordinated and ordered by the Iraqi government, under Iraqi command and control. He missed that, I see.

Inhumanity..nice choice of words.Please explain Mr Berg's death to me.

And those of the Nepalese.And the Iraqi police officers.

Where is Margaret Hassan..the woman who has spent her life bringing aid and assistance and medical care to the Iraqi people?These same "freedom fioghters" are they the ones who have done more to harm the Iraqi people??

You do realise that by that one act of barbarism, these "mujahadeen" have caused the withdrawal of vital medical care and support to the very people they claim to be fighting "for"???

I'd say someone, somewhere has their wires crossed.

You, it looks like.

Australian writer, ex-diplomat Tony Kevin, perhaps best known in recent years for his determined efforts to uncover the truth behind the sabotage and sinking of the refugee boat SIEVX, has been silenced by crypto-techno disturbances, as he was due to speak out about the US assault on the citizens of Fallujah today. Kevin wonders to what extent Australian security authorities might be involved in, or might have authorised, this interference with his right to free speech, and CNN's right as an America-based international television broadcaster to broadcast his view that the present US attack on Fallujah is a war crime ?

Yeah right,they are going to let him broadcast specific troop movements and locations duting an assault. Hey, why not get a map and broadcast their exact positions??

I'm an Aussie, and that guy has zero credibility here. It's called limiting intelligence from a battlefield to the enemy, and its plain common sense.

According to the Mujahideen: the battle is intense, they are determined to win or die.

I'd say they'll be dead. Pointing a weapon at an armed Marine is probably the last stupid thing they will do.

Now, that makes more sense, and better explains why the battles are still going; because the resistance is fierce.

Be a surprise for them, having enemies that can fight back for a change.Hence the part about them running for their lives.

Probably the most intelligent thing they have done for a while.

I'm glad bush held on to power, with his stupid assualts he is weakening the us militaries might everyday, and at the end of the day america will flee Iraq

I suggest you review the US OrBat(order of battle)...what is in Fallujah and in Iraq now is only a small fraction of their armed forces.

Oh yes one last thing..freedom of speech is the virtue of a democracy and a free nation, not a totalitarian, theocratic Islamic state.

Or had you forgotten that as well?

[SunHawk]

People, forgive me for this, but I can and will back up everything I have said with cold, hard facts.

In case anyone had not heard, because of Margaret Hassans abduction and threats to murder her, aid agencies are leaving Iraq to protect their other people.

Vital medical supplies, nursing, food and drug shipments have stopped.

If you want to start commenting on Iraqi civilian deaths, consider the impact of the "bravery" of the "freedom fighters" on those same civilians.

[PXM5000]

Hey, these guys arent pure, there are those who are sick of their children being bombarded everyday and take up arms to defend themselves, and then there are those who do the inhuman kidnapings and torture you mention, but the US does that too, so you cant FULLY support either side!

[Eg.]

think of it this way, u call jihad, no hl3, no hl3....i dont want to see a world like that. ho will gabe get the money to rub himslef with 100's? hmmm?

[Eg.]

Hey, these guys arent pure, there are those who are sick of their children being bombarded everyday and take up arms to defend themselves, and then there are those who do the inhuman kidnapings and torture you mention, but the US does that too, so you cant FULLY support either side!


when do we kidnap and torture?

last i checked, we only ARREST those that bomb or kill us, an dthen we just deprive them of sleep, we all know that a lot worse then getting ur ass rammed with a cattle prod (saddams sons favorite pass time), or better yet, beheaded.

[PXM5000]

yeah, and you rape them, and then abuse them, and then.......
you forgotten abu ghereib, ordered by your most seniour generals!
and i aint defending sadam here, fu** him too!!!

[SunHawk]

yeah, and you rape them, and then abuse them, and then.......you forgotten abu ghereib, ordered by your most seniour generals! and i aint defending sadam here, fu** him too!!!

Nice try, and again , wrong.

Those who committed those crimes are being tried to the fullest extent of the law.

Sergeant Ivan "Chip" Frederick has been sentenced to eight years in prison for sexually and physically torturing Iraqi detainees at Abu Ghraib jail in Baghdad. ...

Two other US soldiers have been sentenced to between eight months and a year in jail after pleading guilty to abuses at Abu Ghraib.

Other charges and trials are pending, and will also be prosecuted.Those responsible are being punished, and what they did was NOT and HAS NEVER BEEN sanctioned by ANY level of government.

Again, the virtues of a democracy are seen, rule of law for all

I'd read the UCMJ if I were you, these criminals are facing stern senbtences and military prison is no walk in the park.

Please tell me what rule of law, if any, these "freedom fighters" obey.???

Oh and PXM..in case it had escaped your notice,those at Abu Ghraib are still alive and able to press charges.

Funny, that....Nick Berg isn't alive to follow suit now, is he?

Or Shosei-koda, or Enzo Baldoni ,or Fabrizio Quattrocchi.

You are defending the actions of these cold blooded murderers??

They have violated the laws of God and Man, and are welcome in no society as by their actions they have no place in civilised society at any level.

PXM maybe you better read this as well.

Well, the cold fact is that Western soldiers, whether Americans, Brits, Russians or Israelis, do not take hundreds of children hostage, then shoot them in cold blood while detonating bombs in their midst. The Muslim world can lie to itself, but we need lie no longer.

The tragedy in southern Russia occurred thousands of miles from the United States, but, in essence, that massacre happened next door. The parents, teachers and students kept for days without water or food in a sweltering school building before being butchered were our children, our sisters, our wives, our parents.

A final thought: Did any of those protesters who came to Manhattan to denounce our liberation of 50 million Muslims stay an extra day to protest the massacre in Russia? Of course not.

The protesters no more care for dead Russian children than they care for dead Kurds or for the hundreds of thousands of Arabs that Saddam Hussein executed. Or for the ongoing Arab-Muslim slaughter of blacks in Sudan. Nothing's a crime to those protesters unless the deed was committed by America.

And then theres this as well....and I am guessing none of you even remember the Achille Lauro

On October 7, 1985, four members of one of the PLO's factions, the Palestine Liberation Front (PLF), hijacked the Italian cruise ship Achille Lauro and demanded the release of Palestinian prisoners held in Israel. Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak persuaded the hijackers to surrender, but not before they shot to death a wheelchair-bound Jewish passenger from the United States named Leon Klinghoffer, dumping his body overboard.

Hey this is interesting, guess where Klinghoffer's killer was found

Abbas eventually made his way to Iraq where he was believed to be a conduit for Saddam Hussein's payments to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers. Abbas was captured by U.S. forces in a raid in Iraq on April 15, 2003. He died on March 9, 2004, at the age of 56 in U.S. custody in Iraq. Klinghoffer's daughters said, “Now, with his death, justice will be denied. The one consolation for us is that Abul Abbas died in captivity, not as a free man.”

Now tell us again how these "mujahadeen" are "brave freedom fighters".....because I am telling you now....no one is listening to a single word you are saying.

[Eg.]

yeah, and you rape them, and then abuse them, and then.......
you forgotten abu ghereib, ordered by your most seniour generals!
and i aint defending sadam here, fu** him too!!!

some idiots in one prison does not compare to BEHEADINGS!!!!

yes, i would much rather get my head chopped off than have my naked pics on teh internet

[Gray Fox]

SunHawk, this may be offtopic but these are not American forums run by Americans, but its by British, just thought to give you a heads up :)

For the rest I don't agree with your arguments nor do I agree with the arguments of your opponents.

[CptStern]

some idiots in one prison does not compare to BEHEADINGS!!!!

yes, i would much rather get my head chopped off than have my naked pics on teh internet

why dont you research before you open your mouth? it wasnt some "idiots" in one prison ..it's systematic and was ordered from up high (http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/05/02/1083436475631.html?oneclick=true)

[Eg.]

why dont you research before you open your mouth? it wasnt some "idiots" in one prison ..it's systematic and was ordered from up high (http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/05/02/1083436475631.html?oneclick=true)

what about my choice of getting my head chopped off? cant rebuke that eh?

[Gray Fox]

why dont you research before you open your mouth? it wasnt some "idiots" in one prison ..it's systematic and was ordered from up high (http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/05/02/1083436475631.html?oneclick=true)

Wazzup Stern, since I've been here i never saw you getting pissed, but today I saw you getting pissed twice, its just not like you, is everything allright. In any case if you feel ****ed up just do what I do, go to a store and buy bread and then go feed duckies or pigions, it works for me if I'm not to lazy to get my ass up :farmer: :farmer:

[K e r b e r o s]

I dont know whats got him so mad. CptStern, once Half-Life 2 is installed on your comp, you need to load-it-up, set the difficulty setting to easy and go play a "chill/fun" game.

what about my choice of getting my head chopped off? cant rebuke that eh?

We've all brought up this point to Mr. Stern. Nothing. Nothing at all.

[JimmehH]

I'm not sure if you can compare a group of extreme fundamentalists decapitating people to the endorsed torture of US prisoners.

[CptStern]

what about my choice of getting my head chopped off? cant rebuke that eh?

what are you talking about? it's not like the terrorists are there to help the people of iraq, unlike the supposed purpose of the American occupation of iraq


hehe Grey Fox thanks for the concern ..I guess I got a little touchy on the canadian healthcare thing ...I guess it's because the healthcare system here has really come through for my family in the last 2 years ..so it kinda pisses me off when people make inacurate claims

[Eg.]

"what are you talking about? it's not like the terrorists are there to help the people of iraq, unlike the supposed purpose of the American occupation of iraq"


and? therefor our troops are damned nice compared to that

[SunHawk]

If these "mujahadeen" are such brave fighters...why did they cut and run?

Why aren't they in the front lines, fighting?

Because they are cowards?

No...that couldn't be it...could it?.

[sobergrad]

SunHawk, man, I was really moved by how you are taking it too these guys. What I noticed is that they havent come up with any arguments against you :) Your just too damn smart for them. I believe I have found myself a new mentor. Thanks sunhawk for being here :)

[PXM5000]

It wasnt just abuse, it was murder too, interesting you send all these links but forget to highlight the murders you do, how many people have been beheaded? not even a 100, how many killed by american soldiers, thousands, how many of them civilians, MOST OF THEM.
The mujahedeens kill, and we dont support them, bush killes, and you DO support him!

[Mechagodzilla]

Those who committed those crimes are being tried to the fullest extent of the law.
Quote:
Sergeant Ivan "Chip" Frederick has been sentenced to eight years in prison for sexually and physically torturing Iraqi detainees at Abu Ghraib jail in Baghdad. ...
Two other US soldiers have been sentenced to between eight months and a year in jail after pleading guilty to abuses at Abu Ghraib.
Call me crazy, but one guy being sentenced to only eight years for multiple tortures doesn't seem like "the fullest extent of the law" to me.

Other charges and trials are pending, and will also be prosecuted. Those responsible are being punished, and what they did was NOT and HAS NEVER BEEN sanctioned by ANY level of government.

Again, the virtues of a democracy are seen, rule of law for all
Perhaps those who did the acts are being punished, but what of those who ordered them?
As stern pointed out:
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/05/02/1083436475631.html?oneclick=true

I'd like to know why you are so confident in your assertion that "what they did was NOT and HAS NEVER BEEN sanctioned by ANY level of government" when the above link states to opposite.
Believe me, I'd love for you to be right, and find out that it wasn't planned or condoned.
However, I'll need evidence to back up that ideal.

I'd read the UCMJ if I were you, these criminals are facing stern senbtences and military prison is no walk in the park.
Yes, but eight months to one year for most of them? That might not be a walk in the park, but it's certainly a walk of some sorts.

Unless there's something in the UCMJ that describes some ultra-punishment they go through in that brief time.

Please tell me what rule of law, if any, these "freedom fighters" obey.???
Oh and PXM..in case it had escaped your notice,those at Abu Ghraib are still alive and able to press charges.
Funny, that....Nick Berg isn't alive to follow suit now, is he?
Or Shosei-koda, or Enzo Baldoni ,or Fabrizio Quattrocchi.
You are defending the actions of these cold blooded murderers??

They have violated the laws of God and Man, and are welcome in no society as by their actions they have no place in civilised society at any level.

To be frank, the main, if not only, reason that they are violating laws is that the United States broke laws first, and that Saddam broke laws before that. If there were no war, none of this would have occurred. These insurgents are mostly comprised of normal men driven to extremes from being collateral damage in a war between Saddam and America.

You ask: "what rule of law, if any, these "freedom fighters" obey.???"
And the question answers itself: one that is dramatically different from yours. One thing to understand is that these people are absolutely certain in the correctness of their actions, as you are. And they see their actions as the only hope they have. They are not bloodthirsty. They are simply determined to defend themselves against a vastly superior force that they see as a fundmental threat, and are using what they see as the only tactic they can.

The murders commited by the insurgents do not justify the abuses in the myriad coalition prisons, and the invasion does not justify the murder of innocent civilians.

You say: "They have violated the laws of God and Man, and are welcome in no society as by their actions they have no place in civilised society at any level." when they would say the same about your country.
The fact of the matter is that they do have a place in a society: in Al-queda, seeing as their enemy is mutual. The war has resulted in a blurring of lines. Things are not so simple as dropping a bomb on a terrorist training camp and removing the threat. Because of the invasion, entire populations have turned to Al-queda for aid.

These people are not disorganised savages. They know exactly what they are doing.
They were not born murderers. They were made.
No-one is innocent here.

Well, the cold fact is that Western soldiers, whether Americans, Brits, Russians or Israelis, do not take hundreds of children hostage, then shoot them in cold blood while detonating bombs in their midst. The Muslim world can lie to itself, but we need lie no longer.

The tragedy in southern Russia occurred thousands of miles from the United States, but, in essence, that massacre happened next door. The parents, teachers and students kept for days without water or food in a sweltering school building before being butchered were our children, our sisters, our wives, our parents.

A final thought: Did any of those protesters who came to Manhattan to denounce our liberation of 50 million Muslims stay an extra day to protest the massacre in Russia? Of course not.

The protesters no more care for dead Russian children than they care for dead Kurds or for the hundreds of thousands of Arabs that Saddam Hussein executed. Or for the ongoing Arab-Muslim slaughter of blacks in Sudan. Nothing's a crime to those protesters unless the deed was committed by America.

The outrage here is obvious, but it is also misguided. "The muslim world" has only the most tenuous ties to the russian terror attacks.

Chechnyan rebels commited the attacks, they were funded by Al-queda, and those muslim extremists are technically connected to the muslim faith in general. It's like six degrees of separation here.

To group all of the muslim faith into the category of "terrorists and their sympathisers" is simply wrong. The terrorists are called extremists for a reason, you know. Decrying an entire religion based on their actions is simply prejudice.

Also, what sort of point is that in the second paragraph? Git rid of all the baselessly inflammatory accusations, and it boils down to "People shouldn't protest something unless they simultaneously protest everything, and therefore we are correct in invading Iraq" and "because the other guys are doing worse stuff, people should ignore the skeletons in our closet."

Forget for the moment that it would be utterly pointless for protesters to just gather and aimlessly oppose everything.

The fact the quote ignores is that the world is not so certain of the quality of the American 'liberation'. In fact, it is opposed by damn near everyone. The iraqis included.

Also, it's damn extreme and certainly foolhardy to claim that american citizens are terrorist sympathisers simply because they oppose war in Iraq. It's especially callous to claim that they do not care about about dead children and genocide simply because they do not agree with you.

That really comes across as less of an outrage over the lack of reaction to a tragedy, and more of a partisan exploitation of that tragedy just to vilify anti-war protestors. Basically a petty cheapening of the deaths that occured.

The quote is also flawed in that it refers specifically to the actions of terrorists, and therefore chastises american citizens for standing up for people who are not terrorists.

Despite what you might have heard, Iraq was not the haven for terrorism that it was made out to be. Yes, there was evil. But it was not the largest evil by a long shot. Iraq's ties to Al-queda, the group behind nearly every recent attack, were extremely limited. Iraq itself had not done anything as bad as they were accused of, since 1993.

Those protestors aren't there to defend terrorism. They are there to defend the 100 000 innocent people who have died as a result of a war poorly planned.

Yes, terrorists kill people too. But does that justify 100 000 dead civilians? You might call it justified, but you are the minority in that opinion.

The quote is flawed because it so readily discounts every other opinion as evil.

And then theres this as well....and I am guessing none of you even remember the Achille Lauro
On October 7, 1985, four members of one of the PLO's factions, the Palestine Liberation Front (PLF), hijacked the Italian cruise ship Achille Lauro and demanded the release of Palestinian prisoners held in Israel. Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak persuaded the hijackers to surrender, but not before they shot to death a wheelchair-bound Jewish passenger from the United States named Leon Klinghoffer, dumping his body overboard.
Hey this is interesting, guess where Klinghoffer's killer was found
Abbas eventually made his way to Iraq where he was believed to be a conduit for Saddam Hussein's payments to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers. Abbas was captured by U.S. forces in a raid in Iraq on April 15, 2003. He died on March 9, 2004, at the age of 56 in U.S. custody in Iraq. Klinghoffer's daughters said, “Now, with his death, justice will be denied. The one consolation for us is that Abul Abbas died in captivity, not as a free man.”
The points above apply to this quote as well.
To you, it is a man put to justice. To others it is one man put to justice at the cost of nearly a quarter-million innocents.

No matter how convinced you are in your justifications, and no matter how many agree with you, there are millions more out there who can and will disagree.
There are no moral absolutes in this situation. No-one is "right" or "wrong" anymore.

Now tell us again how these "mujahadeen" are "brave freedom fighters".....because I am telling you now....no one is listening to a single word you are saying.

They are brave by they own standards, and they are fighting for their own ideal of freedom. They are not something to be discounted so readily, as they will continue to fight long after this war is over, so convinced in thier morality.
There aren't any winners in this war. Only losses on every side.
Arguably, the only winner is Al-queda, because they had nothing to lose.

And the question of who was right - those for the war or those against it - will be asked for generations. It certainly won't be resolved definitively anytime soon.
So no-one here might agree with what hasan has said, but not listening to a single word?
I'd say "not listening" is exactly what has caused this entire mess.

[PXM5000]

mecha, that was a lot of reading, some very good points.
And whatever peoples opinions, you gotta admit anyone who has the guts to blow themselves up is VERY brave

[K e r b e r o s]

...like US Soldiers. :D Face it PXM, you were worried at the start of the Iraq campaign, because you thought your country was next. :D

You got Punk'd.

[PXM5000]

yeah, like us soldiers, you gotta be so brave to to kill all those bad guys(including BAD women and children) with so little( thousands of dollars of tanks, and equipment) its so dangerous( specialy droping bombs with planes thousands of meters high and artillary from miles away)
all for the safety of your country( i mean no one gets free scholarships)

Hey i aint saying US soldiers are bad people, but like the mujahedeen they are pawns in power struggles between the rich.

No, before the campain maybe, but after it there is no worries about an US attack, we haven't been under sanctions for 10 years, we have missles capable of hitting germany, and the rumsfield had even said we dont wanne attack iran, iranians will do it for us(yeah right)

[Eg.]

It wasnt just abuse, it was murder too, interesting you send all these links but forget to highlight the murders you do, how many people have been beheaded? not even a 100, how many killed by american soldiers, thousands, how many of them civilians, MOST OF THEM.
The mujahedeens kill, and we dont support them, bush killes, and you DO support him!


lol, ummm, wow. so lets see, a history of iraq, shall we?

Iraq invades Kuwait:

saddam invades kuwait, and strips the hospitals of their incubators; those are needed to keep newborn babies alive(the glass cribs). it is estimated that a full generation of kuwaiti children died in 20 minutes because of that. why did saddam steal the incubators? Iraq couldnt afford to buy the new ones.

during the retreat from kuwait, saddam sets fire to the oil fields,the staple of most middle eastern economies. these oil fires produces as much pollution as the world cars do, as some oil fires could not be contained until 2000.

in iraq saddam used sarin nerve gas, and mustard gas. Mustard gas does things to u, like buirn ur skin off

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWmustard.htm

http://www.cfrterrorism.org/weapons/mustard.html

now, also torturing occured in iraq at the same time, saddam let his two sons do whatever they wanted with THEIR OWN PRISONS. the most common punishment was to annally insert a catlle prod and let it go off. when removed, the burnt flesh came with it.

ok, so now desert storm is now done, moving on

from the end of the war, the no fly zones have been set up, these are patrolled by american airplanes that make sure saddam cant gass any more people, or move any large infantry units around. they shot at daily by iraq missile sites, but no american were ever hit, because they dodged the missiles and promptly blew up the site.

the oil for foold scam worked like this.
marlket prices for a barrel of oil, are say 50 dollars. saddam would sell them at 45 dollars to french, german, and russian companies. saddam would get a kickback of 2.50 dollars, and the buyer woudl keep the other 2.50. this build up of kick backs (several million barrels a DAY) gave saddam credit, soon when the credit built up into the billions, he would have asked the un members cough france, germany, russia, cough to remove the sanctions against him.



desert storm 2.


no big news there, the majority of the iraqi army gave up, or we killed them all, the die hards are killing innocents purposefully, america is made out to be the bad guy.

yes, we are sobs, arent we?

[PXM5000]

No need to tell me of saddams evil, he bombed my country too and killed one of my uncles,so no need to preach me.
Bush didnt attack iraq to help the people, didnt put the no flight zoned to protect the kurds, he has his own agenda.

[Eg.]

then why do the y no fly zones just happen to cover the kurd and teh "marsh" arabs, which just happen both to b egroups that were gasses or killd under saddam?

[rkef]

lol, ummm, wow. so lets see, a history of iraq, shall we?

Iraq invades Kuwait:

saddam invades kuwait, and strips the hospitals of their incubators; those are needed to keep newborn babies alive(the glass cribs). it is estimated that a full generation of kuwaiti children died in 20 minutes because of that. why did saddam steal the incubators? Iraq couldnt afford to buy the new ones.
Thankfully it wasn't true. (http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0906/p25s02-cogn.htm)

No one pretends Saddam wasn't a monster (except people like Michael Moore, I regret to say, who did himself and "his" cause a great disservice, when he portrayed Iraq as one gigantic picnic), but that is no excuse to give the USA carte blanche, when it comes to the way they behave. Your history is fanatically selective.

[Tr0n]

...like US Soldiers. :D Face it PXM, you were worried at the start of the Iraq campaign, because you thought your country was next. :D

You got Punk'd.Well....I think Bush might be still planning to invade Iran. :|

[Eg.]

Thankfully it wasn't true. (http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0906/p25s02-cogn.htm)

No one pretends Saddam wasn't a monster (except people like Michael Moore, I regret to say, who did himself and "his" cause a great disservice, when he portrayed Iraq as one gigantic picnic), but that is no excuse to give the USA carte blanche, when it comes to the way they behave. Your history is fanatically selective.

Times, or any other news groups also have this opinion?

[Maxi]

Iraq invades Kuwait:

saddam invades kuwait, and strips the hospitals of their incubators; those are needed to keep newborn babies alive(the glass cribs). it is estimated that a full generation of kuwaiti children died in 20 minutes because of that. why did saddam steal the incubators? Iraq couldnt afford to buy the new ones.


Eh? WTF? Babies don't need incubators to live... they only keep children that are born early in them to mainly shield them from infections (they have a poor imune system, since it's not fully developed), and then, the incubators have a warmlight ontop of them to keep the babies warm, aswell...

[Eg.]

Eh? WTF? Babies don't need incubators to live... they only keep children that are born early in them to mainly shield them from infections (they have a poor imune system, since it's not fully developed), and then, the incubators have a warmlight ontop of them to keep the babies warm, aswell...


i mean the noraml cribs, newborns will die if they are cooled, but still BABIES, ADORABLE BABIES dead

[rkef]

Times, or any other news groups also have this opinion?
Actually, the Times (you meant NY Times?) did run an op-ed by John R MacArthur on the subject, where he tears it up pretty good. Basically, the only person who saw this actually happen is "a friend" of the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador to the U.S. An unnamed friend. And the girl who originally told the story (again, the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador to the U.S.), said she saw it happen, but only later admitted to having not. Viz. she lied.

Other than that, you'll find it mentioned on the CBC, CS Monitor, and FAIR websites.

What you won't find is anyone mentioning the story as true, and it was a BIG story at the time. There is zero evidence it happened, nothing. And guess where the burden of proof lies, when such stories are told? It's one for the memory hole.

You'd probably need Nexus-Lexus access to find out more.

[Mechagodzilla]

Well....I think Bush might be still planning to invade Iran. :|Also, the war in Iraq turning sour is the main reason why Iran is progressing so far with its nuke program: They are convinced the US would not want to repeat the mistake of invading another country so soon.

Looks like we're all 'punk'd'!

Thankfully it wasn't true.

No one pretends Saddam wasn't a monster (except people like Michael Moore, I regret to say, who did himself and "his" cause a great disservice, when he portrayed Iraq as one gigantic picnic), but that is no excuse to give the USA carte blanche, when it comes to the way they behave. Your history is fanatically selective.
Why is it that whenever I drunkenly write a long-ass post, someone always writes a more specific and concise improvement of it? :P

lol, ummm, wow. so lets see, a history of iraq, shall we?
A history lesson from Eg? This ought to be amusing. :D

Iraq invades Kuwait:

saddam invades kuwait, and strips the hospitals of their incubators; those are needed to keep newborn babies alive(the glass cribs). it is estimated that a full generation of kuwaiti children died in 20 minutes because of that. why did saddam steal the incubators? Iraq couldnt afford to buy the new ones.
As was pointed out, that is a lie.

during the retreat from kuwait, saddam sets fire to the oil fields,the staple of most middle eastern economies. these oil fires produces as much pollution as the world cars do, as some oil fires could not be contained until 2000.
Well, yes, he did do that. Back in the 80's.
So did we go to Iraq to prevent Saddam from maybe lighting the kuwaiti oilfields a second time?
That's not really a justification for war. It's an excuse.

in iraq saddam used sarin nerve gas, and mustard gas. Mustard gas does things to u, like buirn ur skin off

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWmustard.htm

http://www.cfrterrorism.org/weapons/mustard.html

"Iraqi President Saddam Hussein used mustard gas on Kurds in northern Iraq during 1987-88"
Meaning twenty years ago. I don't know the specifics, but wasn't that around the same time the US was supporting Iraq's military campaigns?
Apparently it's only worthy of retribution once the alliance is done.


now, also torturing occured in iraq at the same time, saddam let his two sons do whatever they wanted with THEIR OWN PRISONS. the most common punishment was to annally insert a catlle prod and let it go off. when removed, the burnt flesh came with it.
And, as was pointed out, no-one is debating that Saddam and his family were horrible people.
But was a poorly planned war that put both tens of thousands of american soldiers and hundeds of thousands of iraqi civilians at grave and unecessary risk really worth it?

ok, so now desert storm is now done, moving on

from the end of the war, the no fly zones have been set up, these are patrolled by american airplanes that make sure saddam cant gass any more people, or move any large infantry units around. they shot at daily by iraq missile sites, but no american were ever hit, because they dodged the missiles and promptly blew up the site.
Okay? Saddam shoots at his enemy. I'd expect that.
Again, this is back in around 1993, right? Can you describe anything he did after then?

the oil for foold scam worked like this.
marlket prices for a barrel of oil, are say 50 dollars. saddam would sell them at 45 dollars to french, german, and russian companies. saddam would get a kickback of 2.50 dollars, and the buyer woudl keep the other 2.50. this build up of kick backs (several million barrels a DAY) gave saddam credit, soon when the credit built up into the billions, he would have asked the un members cough france, germany, russia, cough to remove the sanctions against him.
So... Saddam tried to make a scam work? Back in the early 90's as well, right?
How does this make him a bigger threat than Al-Queda in 2002?

desert storm 2.

no big news there, the majority of the iraqi army gave up, or we killed them all, the die hards are killing innocents purposefully, america is made out to be the bad guy.
The people fighting now are not the all iraqi army members. Only a few of them. The "die hards" are normal civilians who took up arms, and turned to Al-queda for support against an illegal invasion that is killing their people.
Basically, the war in Iraq has created its own enemy. It's like a self-fulfilling prophecy.

yes, we are sobs, arent we?
No-one was saying that, but they way you present it, it sure looks that way.
What you're describing is not a pre-emptive strike. It's a post-emptive one. All the things you describe, save one, are either incorrect or have taken place decades ago.

So, the war in Iraq, and the hundreds of thousands of casualties, the weakening of the US on the international scale and the huge boost in Al-queda enlistment that came with it, those are all the result of putting Saddam Hussien on trial for things he did before 1993, and that the US disregarded in 1980?
In the end it all boils down to the most costly revenge scheme in history, in terms of both lives and dollars?

And therefore it's okay?

Edit:i mean the noraml cribs, newborns will die if they are cooled, but still BABIES, ADORABLE BABIES dead

Call me a heartless bastard, but that made me laugh a bit.

Eg: Saddam killed babies in 1980! So we needed to start a war right now!

Rkef: But he didn't kill any babies. That was a lie. Here is proof that he didn't. It never happened.

Eg: BUT THE BABIES! ADORABLE BABIES!

It's just funny how much he's bought into it.

[Eg.]

ok...

Al ot nurses in kuwaiti hospitals have said that the incubators were stolen, not just 'unnmaed" people

the oild fires in the first gulf war can eality be googled

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.aliciapatterson.org/APF2003/Sloyan/Sloyan01.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.aliciapatterson.org/APF2003/Sloyan/Sloyan.html&h=723&w=1100&sz=66&tbnid=smSQoYilwPYJ:&tbnh=98&tbnw=149&start=20&prev=/images%3Fq%3DGulf%2BWar%2Boil%2Bfires%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DN

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://svs.gsfc.nasa.gov/vis/a000000/a002700/a002715/a002715_pre.jpg&imgrefurl=http://svs.gsfc.nasa.gov/vis/a000000/a002700/a002715/&h=238&w=320&sz=11&tbnid=N3NP9ZogP8AJ:&tbnh=84&tbnw=112&start=14&prev=/images%3Fq%3DGulf%2BWar%2Boil%2Bfires%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DN

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.uwec.edu/grossmzc/slide0003_image012.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.uwec.edu/grossmzc/sniderll.html&h=168&w=220&sz=8&tbnid=T3w3f6uLBbYJ:&tbnh=77&tbnw=100&start=19&prev=/images%3Fq%3DGulf%2BWar%2Boil%2Bfires%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DN
so after signing a cease fire (the end of hostilities) he had his troops fire on american planes up to the second gulf war, up to 2002.

the oil for food scam worrked up to the last minute, thats like 1 decade so it was building up huge sums of cash, and that would have been leveage for teh removal of sanctions


now, most of th eterrorists in iraq are.... iranian and suadi, WHat????

and if they stop blowing themsleves up and concentrated on making a govenment in iraq work, maybe there would be none dead, maybe just maybe, the iraqi people will have a nice, democratic govenment that doesnt kill town loads of villages, hmmm. if only the terrorists stopped, all the accidental deaths form crossfire would also stop, beacuse thered be no reason to shoot anything

now there have not been hundreds of thousands dead, the Un total is estimated a 14k to 200k, that pretty much a big guess, most nation and news groups put well below th 50k mark,

the weaking of the US, my ass. our military still has the best equipment, we still have th biggest military budget, all our bases are still there, and we could still take anything else over, or throw our political weight into any decsision

Its been proven it never happened, just as many sources say it didnit happen, there are as many that say they have

[rkef]

Al ot nurses in kuwaiti hospitals have said that the incubators were stolen, not just 'unnmaed" people
So, now it's you telling stories? Where did you get this information? I feel like I'm really wasting my time with you. A nurse is a noun, but it's not a name, hence you've proven my point.

The Kuwaiti ambassador's daughter was supposedly the "nurse" who witnessed the events. Another lie.

[Eg.]

i meant to say a lot of nurses

[rkef]

i meant to say a lot of nurses
I kinda figured that out. So what? Name one, or show me their statements.

p.s. My last post in this nonsense forum, but I'll be glad to check back on your progress, in producing some evidence for your claims.

[Eg.]

lol, I ve been watching you mister freeman, ahh tha brings back the memories, too much for tonight, check tommorrow

[CptStern]

Eg know when to quit, politics are not your forte

[Eg.]

oh ill be back tommorrow, u just wait.

[PXM5000]

where did iraq gets its ability to produce mustard gas, where did it get its fighter planes and tanks, well you gave it to them so they attack us and weaken us, saddam was like frankestines monster, you produced him but things got out of hand.
And no you clame to be the good guys saving the world from the monster, even if bushes reason for war really was the liberation of iraq(which it wasnt) your just cleaning your own mess.

[Mechagodzilla]

I'd respond to Eg, but I can hardly understand a damn thing he's saying.

I managed to glean this though:
"The main problem with the war is that the people of Iraq didn't just bend over and surrender. Therefore all the casualties are not the US's fault."

No, it was up to the US to come up with a plan that would avoid casualties. They were the attackers.
The idea that, under any circumstance, there would be no resistance was a tremendous mistake from the start, and arguably what has caused so many casualties, with the soldiers understaffed and ill-equipped.

You can't seriously be proposing that, after invading a country, all the bad that subsequently occured is the invaded people's fault.

"the weaking of the US, my ass. our military still has the best equipment, we still have th biggest military budget, all our bases are still there, and we could still take anything else over, or throw our political weight into any decsision"

First, you have confused the process of being weakened with weakness itself. Is the US still strong? Undoubtedly.
Is it as strong as it was before? Hell no.

Your interpretation here is entirely too literal. Yes, the US has the tanks and the bases. But what has it lost?
It has lost allies, and it has lost the support of the iraqi people. It has lost a great portion of the iraqi population to Al-queda. But, most of all, it has lost respect. It has lost my support for the administration, and the support of billions like me.
At least you have the tanks, right?

But what good are they against an enemy that attacks through the random acts of solitary hateful men?
The greatest weapon against Al-Queda is to show not only that america is strong, but to show that western culture as a whole is non threatening, or even preferable.

What has the war done to further that aim? Or, at least, what has it done to not detract from it?

It's a war of cultures and the war in Iraq is making ours look like the villain.
We've given the iraqis 'freedom', but it is an all too partial freedom and one that we have done nothing to promote.

It's an unknown device thrown through a window. And the note attached says "screw you".
Sure, the intentions are honourable. But America has caressed the mouse too hard.

[Eg.]

ok.... nect day, u have not acknowledged the oil fire, ill take that as u accepting they did occur during Gulf war 1, not in the 80's

the majority of iraqis want a nice, peaceful nation, The IRainian terrorists and the Saudis that do come in are the problem. they need to be killed off.

to say my agrument is incomprehensible is just to make other people think i can barley right, but what ever, i dont use tricks like that.

point is in 20 years, when this is over and the iraqis are doing some sort of parade in their democratic nation and thanking the US, then ill know im right

[Mechagodzilla]

ok.... nect day, u have not acknowledged the oil fire, ill take that as u accepting they did occur during Gulf war 1, not in the 80'sOkay, instead of this:

"Well, yes, he did do that. Back in the 80's.
So did we go to Iraq to prevent Saddam from maybe lighting the kuwaiti oilfields a second time?
That's not really a justification for war. It's an excuse."

...pretend I said this:

"Well, yes, he did do that. Back in the 90's.
So did we go to Iraq to prevent Saddam from maybe lighting the kuwaiti oilfields a second time?
That's not really a justification for war. It's an excuse."

My point is still there, even on the nect day.

Also on the nect day, you haven't really responded to anything I've said.
I'll assume that means that you are wrong in pretty much every way (except about the 8 being a 9). :D
the majority of iraqis want a nice, peaceful nation, The IRainian terrorists and the Saudis that do come in are the problem. they need to be killed off.Well, obviously they want peace, and obviously the terrorists are flooding across the now-unguarded borders so that they can take a shot at the US.

But guess how many iranian and saudi terrorists there were in Iraq before the war? I'd say around zero.
So, the war against terrorism Iraq is actually causing terrorism in Iraq. Hooray?
To say [that] my argument is incomprehensible is just [a trick] to make other people think [that] I can barely write.
But whatever, I dont use tricks like that.Spelling/grammar corrections are highlighted in bold.
point is in 20 years, when this is over and the iraqis are doing some sort of parade in their democratic nation and thanking the US, then ill know im right"The ends justify the means" is not a great strategy. In fact, it's a sucky one.
From this and other threads, I get the impression that you would nuke a city just to kill one terrorist.
You're saying that around 100 000 preventable deaths are okay because people will eventually forget that the US caused them?
The road to hell is paved with good intentions like these.

However, I do agree that we won't be seeing a democratic Iraq for at least another two decades.

[hasan]

Firstly I'm to stupid for starting a thread and not following it for 3 days .... but this political discussion stuff kinda diusturbs me so I try to stay away from it for sometime. don't ask me why, I don't know. (phobia?)

I'd like to reply to stuff that was said on the first page ..

first, stern, when I say jihad, that doesn't mean a holy war as in a crusade. I am thankful for the anti-war movement in europe and north america. I marched in a protest against the war on march 2003 here in calgary. I think pretty much everybody here hates bush :P

now .. for silly bushists: READ THIS!
First of all, go to my profile and do a search on the threads that I started, read the thread about the Italian hostage ..
ok .. done that? good.

now, why do you constantly complian about beheadings? is beheading a barbaric way of killing?
Is bombing a civilized way of killing? or is sniping kids a civilized way of killing? is spraying civilian cars with bullets a civilized way of killing? is turoring prisonors to death a civilized way of killing?
look at the civilization of americans:
http://www.islamonline.net/english/In_Depth/Iraq_Aftermath/2004/11/Images/pic05.jpg
http://www.iraqvictims.com/
http://www.albasrah.net/images/war_crimes/index.htm
http://www.albasrah.net/images/democracy/index.htm
http://www.albasrah.net/images/iraqfreedom/index.htm
(googling stuff like this is pretty easy ..
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=iraq+victims+pictures
etc ..)

if anyone is barbaric here .. it's the americans.

for your information: most of the iraqis in american prisons are just normal people, not mujahideen.
Americans are kidnapping THOUSANDS of Iraqis and KILLING many of them. and TURORING the rest.
the soldiers who were sentenced 8 mothes .. heh .. that's a joke. the only reason they sentenced them is the scandal. If these incidents weren't widely publicized, the americans wouldn't have done anything about it.

btw, many (not all, mind you) of the hostages were working for the americans, either as guards or supplying ammunition and food for american bases.
like I said, read my italian hostage thread .. (I'm sure you won't ..)


And for your information: Fallujah DEFEATED the marines in April. they are not cowards, they are the bravest fighters I've ever seen.

who is the coward?
the one who has nothing other than rifles and rpgs and mortars, facing the strongest military power in the world? (mujahideen)
or the one flying in his aircraft, bombing civilian homes from up high? (americans)
even if they are bombing fighters, these fighters have nothing more than light weapons, they have no tanks or anything. when they are facing the strongest and most brutal force on earth, I think that's VERY BRAVE.

now back to news: Americans have been claiming control over fallujah for several days now, but that's ofcourse a lie: why don't they let independent journalists enter the city? why don't they let aid enter the city?
compare this to the fall of baghdad (worst day in my life :angry: ) al media was there, everybody saw it, fighting stopped, etc.

infact, they are still lying about the number of injuries even though close to 400 soldiers arrived to the german hospital.
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I/IRAQ_US_WOUNDED?SITE=SCCHA&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

for the past two days, americans have been saying "Fallujah is under control, but there is still some fighting going on!"

yeah like .. right! but it's not thier fault, it's the fault of the idiots who believe them.

[PXM5000]

Is your only problem setting fire to oil fields, so thousands die to save the oil!
That is too Stupid.

[polypod]

That's a good point Hasan, MANY iraqis are detained for no reason, other then they are of fighting age. This is evidenced by the mass releases of hundreds of iraqis. Those were people they simply had no reason to hold.

I think it is hard for us to imagine what it's like to have bombs drop near you. When we bomb a particular building, we're scaring the daylights out of people. Imagine what it would be like. It's hard to.

I also have a problem with the term collateral damage. If you make a decision to use a .50 cal machine gun in a residential area, knowing according to ballistics tests that it will go through walls, then you are responsible when it kills the insurgent, and THEN kills a civilian. You may not have INTENDED to kill the civilian, but you knew they were at risk, and you bear responsiblity.

[K e r b e r o s]

... wow, Fallujah went out the window.

[hasan]

source: american military :laugh: who's been saying that for the past week.

[K e r b e r o s]

... where you talking to yourself Hasan?

Because you do realize, you're alone right?

[hasan]

ofcourse .. if everybody here agreed with me why would I bother to make a thread?

[K e r b e r o s]

Because you like your opinion reinforced? :D ... but wait ... that just helps you.

[hasan]

your sarcasm isn't funny, and it doesn't even make the point.

what are you talkign about?

[FatCombine]

Wow, how biased and misinformed you are, hasan. Just basing your argument off muslim websites, which as a matter of fact, are mostly biased. Look at some other sources.

[K e r b e r o s]

We keep telling him that.

... its great to hear this out of someone else ...

Tell him again!

[hasan]

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2004-11/22/content_2244288.htm

It's called, I'm taking basing my opinions off eyewitnesses. you are basing your opinions of military propaganda.

Just tell me, why don't the americans let un-embedded journalists in? why don't they let aid get in?

[Tr0n]

All news channels and websites are biased in some ways...it's just up to you decided which one is right in your own mind.

[K e r b e r o s]

^ This is true.

[Eg.]

i get my news from CNN and The Times, i just know what wording to look for

[Absinthe]

The only trustworthy news source is Weekly World News, stupid heads.

[FatCombine]

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2004-11/22/content_2244288.htm

It's called, I'm taking basing my opinions off eyewitnesses. you are basing your opinions of military propaganda.

Just tell me, why don't the americans let un-embedded journalists in? why don't they let aid get in?
Your response just made my day. "Military propaganda," oh man, that just cracks me up.

Xinhua? I wouldn't trust that. It's a state-run news service run by the Chinese communist government that has a bad reputation for blowing things out of proportion, not disclosing certain facts or hiding them.