Why are we hated in the Arab World?

[Adidajs]

I recently read an article on yahoo about the american who was recently beheaded, Paul Johnson, and they quoted a Saudi as saying that "All saudis hate americans" and the al-queda were heroes. I don't want this to become a flamefest, but this begs a question, why do arabs hate us so much (i.e. Britain, esp US)? If anyone from an arab country could help enlighten me. Are we hated that much by the common arab?

My belief is that it stems from our foreign policy, the israel situation, our hollywood and "free" society, but i would like further insight. Why is it that arabs feel they must band together against everyone else? Why when something happens to an arab it's like a personal insult to their religion? Why is it that so many fundamentalist violent movements come from Muslim countries? I have talked to a Palestinian over the Pal-Israel conflict, and this girl couldn't give me a satisfactory reason why so many palestinians resort to violence against the common israeli. She kept telling me that Israeli soldiers have killed children, but i can tell you they didn't TARGET them. Palestinians INTENTIONALLY target civilians in their suicide attacks. Why do arabs believe that murdering others in cold blood is even remotely religious and they'll even be REWARDED for killing others?

My grandparents and parents grew up in a society fearing the communist threat, but i live in an age where I fear some violent militant cell will seek to kill thousands of innocent civilians whose goal is the act itself, not some political cause.

WHAT CAN WE DO TO STOP THE HATRED? and don't tell me, just leave out of foreign policy.

LIke i said before, I hope this topic is addressed intelligently, and if my questions are misrepresentations/misinterpretations PLEASE answer and correct me.

[Naft]

we arent arab

[A2597]

we can't stop the hatred. If we leave their country, they will enter ours to kill us. We are not them, and thus we are the enemy.

Look up the sixth piller of islam. Some muslims simply choose to ignore the sixth pillar, and thats fine I suppose, but the sixth pillar of islam is Jihad, or struggle. Simply put, it means kill all non-muslims Or infidels, or non-believers. So long as people follow the sixth piller of islam, they are going to want to kill us, and so long as the Islamic faith exist, there are going to be people following the sixth pillar of islam.

so how do we stop the hatred?
you don't.

[A2597]

we arent arab

heh, interesting to see my responce cut down to two words.
good answer!

[lePobz]

I think the whole of islam is against the whole western world, as it is basically against everything in their 'teachings'

Gambling, Drinking, Pornography, Drug use, Prostitution, Corruption, Etc. Etc. are all so common in the western world we all turn a blind eye to them, take them for granted.

To Islamic people, we are all living lives of sin, we are all complete wrong-doers and are upsetting Allah. We deserve to be wiped from the face of the planet and sent to Allah for our punishment. Or something.

Well, there is a lot of truth in what they say. Killing innocent people is not the solution. And i'm not just talking about Hussain / Bin Laden here, Bush ordered the killing (directly and indirectly) of more people than hussein and bin laden combined.

I think we should just do away with religion and live happily ever after.

[The Mullinator]

This is how it happened IMO according to what information I have.

It may of started as foreign policy, that got some individuals in the Arab world to hate the US (religios leaders, political leaders, etc) then that spilled over into the general populace, then it simply became a positive feed-back loop where the more people hated the US and Israel it caused others to hate it even more. Then of course oil in the middle east as well as bad choices in foreign policy meant that the US had to stay in the middle east, arabs see the US there and hate them even more. Now its at the point where nothing the US will do can help reverse this hatred, any bad decisions made in foreign policy now will only enrage them even more, any good decisions will simply not register because many arabs are at the point where they won't believe the US is capable of doing anything good.

[A2597]

This is how it happened IMO according to what information I have.

It may of started as foreign policy, that got some individuals in the Arab world to hate the US (religios leaders, political leaders, etc) then that spilled over into the general populace, then it simply became a positive feed-back loop where the more people hated the US and Israel it caused others to hate it even more. Then of course oil in the middle east as well as bad choices in foreign policy meant that the US had to stay in the middle east, arabs see the US there and hate them even more. Now its at the point where nothing the US will do can help reverse this hatred, any bad decisions made in foreign policy now will only enrage them even more, any good decisions will simply not register because many arabs are at the point where they won't believe the US is capable of doing anything good.

it's not the US they hate, if you haven't noticed. It's the entire world. And THAT goes all the way back to Abraham, AKA, 2500+ years ago. Very religious culture with long memories. It's a long held grudge.

[Sai]

A297, is your research on the sixth pillar credible, i've studied the fundementals all my life, i have never encountered that assumption of jihad

[A2597]

well, just even a cursury search on it...
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Sixth_pillar_of_Islam
http://www.campusprogram.com/reference/en/wikipedia/s/si/sixth_pillar_of_islam.html
http://www.worldhistory.com/wiki/S/Sixth-pillar-of-Islam.htm


most of those say almost exactly the same thing, actually, most sites seem to. Basically though, you get the idea that the sixth pillar IS Jihad, so, research Jihad:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=jihad


there is actually a good book that explains this entire struggle going back to it's source, the birth of the islamic tribes with Abrahams sons...
ah, here it is:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0785265430/qid=1087786067/sr=1-7/ref=sr_1_7/002-7454141-0038423?v=glance&s=books

[Mr.Reak]

Eh, it sucks to be half-Arabian looking, my dad is from Georgia, mom from Russia. People now always look at me like I am going to blow myself up or something. Lame

[Warbie]

I don't believe for a second that Arabs hate us. I also believe that the vast majority of all Muslims are good, peaceful people who don't believe that 'murdering others in cold blood' is justified by any means.

What we see on the news is very misleading. Christ, if I believed what i've seen on the TV, as opposed to my real life experiences (which include the acquaintance of many decent Muslims) , i'd be scared to go outside.These are just normal people, with the same concerns and needs that we have, who want to get on with their lives. There's never a 'bad guy' in these types of situtations.

As for the attacks on Israeli civilians - that's just the extremely unfortunate response of a few people who feel they have no other choice (being woefully out gunned) Of course I don't condone this behaviour, neither do I condone the bulldozing of innocent peoples homes and the killing of Palestinian civillians (intentional or not)

It wasn't long ago when a group of British reporters, who were making a documentary of life in the Gaza strip, were fired upon by Israeli soliders. They were out in the open, completely alone and visible, holding white flags, with helmets and vests which clearly marked them as being members of the press. One was killed. If this can happen, is it really suprising when we hear of Palestinian civilians being shot?

This documentary showed a young Palestinain women who had lost several members of her family (all children). Some of them were killed on the way to school. Sadly, this isn't that uncommon. Imagine living with that type of fear and we should at least be able to understand why a few people choose to react in the ways they do.

[A2597]

then you sir, are clueless...

[Mr.Reak]

then you sir, are clueless...

Actually, he is somewhat right. I mean, half of Europe hates Americans too, but they don’t shoot you guys down on a sight. Why? Because they have a good life. Middle East, on another hand, it pushed to the limit, and many fight because of that. As easy as that, Russia had the same problem with Chechnya for years now, but those guys fought for “independence”.

[Warbie]

Why is that A2597?

I know muslims who don't hate us, some of them are my mates. My father works in the oil industry and has many Arab friends who have come round and spent time with my family.

If you believe that it's anything other than the vast minority of muslims who believe that they should 'kill all non-muslims Or infidels, or non-believers' then it is you who is clueless.

[Adrien C]

They are just jealous of freedom, and by the way the crisis in middle east is horible, Israel just steall the palestinians land and for some the reason the Israelit allways want more, more and more. Could you explain why hasent the international community done anything? If it was me I would have allready told them to calm down.

[A2597]

I have Muslim friends myself, though none from the middle east.

The vast majority over in the middle east however, want to see everyone else on the planet dead. it was your first sentance I was refering to in my post, I guess I should have quoted it. (Where you said you didn't believe for a second that Arabs hated us) They do.

[Lil' Timmy]

a2597.. you're worldhistory.com link about the "sixth pillar" of islam points out that most muslims believe in only five pillars, and consider the concept of a sixth pillar to be heresy.

anyway, obviously it's a complex issue. but as some have noted, the israel situation is probably right at the top of the list for most militant muslims in the middle east. the excesses of american culture are probably the last thing that your average palestinian fighter is concerned about when the american war machines (via israel) are battering at his door. but, i'm sure each fighter has their own reason.

in response to the original question, here are a few web resources:

a pro-arab writer
http://www.arabnews.com/?page=7&section=0&article=42492&d=4&m=4&y=2004

imo, this is a pretty even look at the state of affairs
http://www.antiwar.com/orig/mcconnell8.html

another considered assesment (quite long though)
http://www.csmonitor.com/2001/0927/p1s1-wogi.html

fairly anti-arab view
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/985424/posts

and of course, it's always good to conclude with some chomsky
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/09/06/1031115935105.html?oneclick=true

[Mr-Fusion]

Muslim guys I know from the middle east totally despise America. They think America ****s around with the whole region far too much.

As they say, reap what you sew mother****ers. Americas past AND CURRENT foreign policies were bound to bite them back in the ass some day. Unfortunately we have to live through this shit.

[Cybernoid]

I recently read an article on yahoo about the american who was recently beheaded, Paul Johnson, and they quoted a Saudi as saying that "All saudis hate americans" and the al-queda were heroes. I don't want this to become a flamefest, but this begs a question, why do arabs hate us so much (i.e. Britain, esp US)? If anyone from an arab country could help enlighten me. Are we hated that much by the common arab?

Foreign policy. I think it goes all the way back to the days of imperialism, but I'm not sure.

My belief is that it stems from our foreign policy, the israel situation, our hollywood and "free" society, but i would like further insight.

I wouldn't call the US a free society compared to Europe, but that's not the reason for terrorism. If freedom was the reason, Scandinavia would be up to it's ears in terrorism...

Why is it that arabs feel they must band together against everyone else? Why when something happens to an arab it's like a personal insult to their religion? Why is it that so many fundamentalist violent movements come from Muslim countries? I have talked to a Palestinian over the Pal-Israel conflict, and this girl couldn't give me a satisfactory reason why so many palestinians resort to violence against the common israeli. She kept telling me that Israeli soldiers have killed children, but i can tell you they didn't TARGET them. Palestinians INTENTIONALLY target civilians in their suicide attacks. Why do arabs believe that murdering others in cold blood is even remotely religious and they'll even be REWARDED for killing others?

Muslims in the middle-east seem to be psychotic, misogynistic fanatics for the most part. Reason has nothing to do with it.

[CrazyHarij]

Because non-muslims are dogs according to islam?

[el Chi]

we arent arab
That's nonsense. Utter and complete nonsense.
One of the main reasons the US is so disliked by the Arab world is the foreign policy applied there and the continued support of Israel.
And the idea that all Muslims are terrorists and extremists is innaccurate and racist - it's been exaggerated by the media. That's not to say that the US isn't hated there, but what so many of the replies here have said just unsettled me so much that I've said my piece and I'm pretty much out.
I've had Muslim friends all my life and to be quite frank a lot of this is ignorant, unfounded and offensive.

Oh and I'd just like to point out that in ALL organised religions, non-believers are looked down on or forcibly converted where possible so hoop-de-f*cking-doo for the idea that Islam is solely and completely condescending. If you're going to criticise something look at the bloody equivalents first, will you?

Mr-Fusion: The sanest response. America's foreign policy has been so shady and so short-sighted it beggars belief. You play with matches...

[CrazyHarij]

That's nonsense. Utter and complete nonsense.
One of the main reasons the US is so disliked by the Arab world is the foreign policy applied there and the continued support of Israel.
And the idea that all Muslims are terrorists and extremists is innaccurate and racist - it's been exaggerated by the media. That's not to say that the US isn't hated there, but what so many of the replies here have said just unsettled me so much that I've said my piece and I'm pretty much out.
I've had Muslim friends all my life and to be quite frank a lot of this is ignorant, unfounded and offensive.


I've had lots of muslim and middle eastern friends in my days.

The thing is, only the extremists are interesting enough to be a news item in todays terms. Extremists are representing cultures, religions, you name it.

[Gunner]

Islam is a religion of peace! of fluffy pink bunnies and fruity ass candy and magic wonderful rainbows!!

[Cybernoid]

I've had Muslim friends all my life and to be quite frank a lot of this is ignorant, unfounded and offensive.

Clearly you've never read about the middle-east. I think it was Pakistan where a girl was gangraped because her brother did something stupid (and insignificant). In other places, women are beaten, burned, raped and stoned because they exit the house without permission and so on.

[el Chi]

The thing is, only the extremists are interesting enough to be a news item in todays terms. Extremists are representing cultures, religions, you name it.
Exactly. People don't want to know about other cultures in-depth. A cardboard cut-out is good enough. As long as there aren't too many long words and lots of shiny pictures.
It's this ignorance that's helped America's foreign policy be so bad in the past. So huzzah for that.

[CrazyHarij]

Clearly you've never read about the middle-east. I think it was Pakistan where a girl was gangraped because her brother did something stupid (and insignificant). In other places, women are beaten, burned, raped and stoned because they exit the house without permission and so on.

Could you tell us a little about extreme cases in the US and the rest of the western world?

[el Chi]

Clearly you've never read about the middle-east. I think it was Pakistan where a girl was gangraped because her brother did something stupid (and insignificant). In other places, women are beaten, burned, raped and stoned because they exit the house without permission and so on.
I have read about the Middle East and of course those stories are appalling but you get tit-for-tat murders in the West too, in gang warfare for example. A lot of what we get is dumbed-down and is intended to be shocking. Perhaps there they get the reverse. As I've never lived there or watched al-Jazeera (nor any other Arab media), I wouldn't like to guess.

[Cybernoid]

I have read about the Middle East and of course those stories are appalling but you get tit-for-tat murders in the West too, in gang warfare for example. A lot of what we get is dumbed-down and is intended to be shocking. Perhaps there they get the reverse. As I've never lived there or watched al-Jazeera (nor any other Arab media), I wouldn't like to guess.

The oppression in the middle-east is their way of life (I wonder if there's a single country in there that is different?), it's not illegal or anything.

[el Chi]

The oppression in the middle-east is their way of life (I wonder if there's a single country in there that is different?), it's not illegal or anything.
Yes many of the countries are very strict due to the religious basis of their laws. But it's not quite as much as the media often portrays it. Sure the Taliban were disgusting but then they're not representative. And let's not forget who helped them to power.
My point is that I've been shocked by some of the ignorance shown in many of the responses. It's quite disheartening.

[Gunner]

El Chi have you lived in the middle east?

[el Chi]

No, I haven't but that doesn't mean one can't get a relatively objective view.
I went to an international college so I did get to meet people from the Middle East. I live in a very Muslim area of London, so I've mingled more than a little with the "Arab world" (and yes Muslims everywhere count). I'm not saying I'm completely right, I'm not ignoring that many countries in the Middle East are oppressive and have terrible human rights records (although many Western countries also are on Amnesty's blacklist) I'm just saying that the simplicity people found in providing "them vs. us" answers without allowing for the possibility that it might be slightly more complex than that was sad. Some of them were borderline racist.

[Sparta]

I'm just saying that the simplicity people found in providing "them vs. us" answers without allowing for the possibility that it might be slightly more complex than that was sad. Some of them were borderline racist.

Is that last sentence in referance to A2597 comments? Or was i the only one who felt a little offended by some of the things he said?

[babywax]

I'm just saying that the simplicity people found in providing "them vs. us" answers without allowing for the possibility that it might be slightly more complex than that was sad.
I believe the "we're not arab" statement was very close to the truth, he isn't saying that ALL Arabs hate us because we're not arab, but in general the ones who hate Americans enough to suicide bomb or attack America largely have irrational reasons for doing so.

Some of them were borderline racist.

People need to grow a thicker skin, if you're offended by something so small as him making generalizations then you're in a little trouble going on the internet. I just hope you don't shoot yourself when you hear someone call you "Gay" for using an AWP in CS Source. Some times people say stupid things, if you have such a thin skin as to be offended by them, then you need to fix some problems with yourself instead of other people, it's the only way you'll get over it.

[Gunner]

So Chi what do you think of that Captain Hook guy who was spreading pro-Jihad propaganda in London?

[^Ben]

Only a minority of musilms and arabs want to kill us.

If all of them did belive me london and many other places in england would be blown to smithereens.

From word IQ that A2597 graciously pointed at and seemed to think that all muslims abided to theese rules.

A few Muslims, mainly some Kharijite groups in ancient times and the founder of Islamic Jihad recently, have taught that Jihad, or personal struggle, should be considered the sixth pillar of Islam. In this context, Jihad is viewed as external war against those perceived to be enemies of Islam. Among certain Ismaili groups, the term "sixth pillar of Islam" can also refer to "Allegiance to the Imam" or "Hajj", depending on the group.

In the early days of Islam, the Kharijite sect are said to have claimed that jihad was the sixth pillar of Islam([1] (http://www.salaam.co.uk/knowledge/schleifer_2.php); see also takfir.) However, the surviving Kharijites (that is, the Ibadhis) of the present day reject this doctrine.

The Egyptian founder of Islamic Jihad, Abd al-Salam Farag (1952-1982), published a pamphlet in the wake of Anwar Sadat's assassination called "The Neglected Duty", attempting to argue that Jihad was the sixth pillar of Islam but that corrupt ulema had hidden the fact. This conspiracy theory has very little support outside Islamic Jihad and a few other similar terrorist groups. Jihad is viewed as a requirement by some, but very few have classified it as a pillar, and the scholars have unanimously condemned the idea. Were it a pillar, then every Muslim, man and woman, would be obligated to take part, which has historically never been the case.

[redundant]

i just want to say that i agree with everything el Chi has said.

[Sprafa]

We had our cruzades against them, it's not like Christians never did the same thing to Islam...they're just fighting back.

The West destroyed their Empire in 1919, took their lands to found Israel in 1948 and supported all of its' resistance against the fair expulsion war by Egypt, Jordan, etc....

The West also consumes all their resources, making only the "pro-West" arabs rich, and installing "pro-West" Gov.'s all over the Middle East, Gov.'s that order laws agaisnt their beliefs....

In 1979-89, the Soviet Union tried to invade Afghanistan, and the U.S. helped the mujahedin to fight them back. They took massive amounts of Western weapons because of that, that they later used agaisnt them in the U.S. invasion.

In 1991, after giving hopes to the Iraqui rebellion, the U.S. Armed Forces retreat from Iraq and sign a peace treaty with Saddam Hussein, and the rebellion is quickly eliminated by Saddam's regime...today we see the love they are giving back for that....

We've simply stabbed them in the back too many times.

[Go Go Codgo]

Such a happy place the world is today...

[babywax]

Such a happy place the world is today...

It's always been like this.

[Go Go Codgo]

Yeah, but recently the shite has really hit the fan.

[Tr0n]

We've simply stabbed them in the back too many times.Thats politics.... :|

[Lil' Timmy]

El Chi have you lived in the middle east?
woot i have i have!!! *waves hand in air frantically*

well, actually, i lived in pakistan for awhile.. not so much the middle east (but it is muslim). the thing people need to realize is that islam is a fairly new religion, and it has spread widely to many parts of the world even more recently. islam has been grafted onto pre-existing cultures. so when you hear about how women can't show their hair or something, well, that's part of the culture before islam came. take pakistan: if you live in the sindi or punjabi areas, you'll see people wearing short-sleeves, women without any sort of head-dress at all, etc. go to the NFWP, where the pattans live, and if you ever even see a woman (it's rare to see them outside), she'll be covered head-to-toe in a burqa. all of these peoples are muslims. more than that they're all pakistanis. but their respective cultures have are still intact because islam came to them through reletively peaceful means (not muslim conquerers). this is true of most islamic countries (e.g. indonesia). just fyi.

edit:
Thats politics.... :|
yeah, well so is war.

[Pogrom]

There is some interesting information in this thread.

I'd like to say that all of the muslims I've ever met are very nice people, quite peaceful. I currently live in China, and China is home to tens of millions of muslims. On the whole, these people are some of the nicest I've met in China.

There are also many international students here in China. Many from Pakistan, Iran, Jordan, Malaysia and Indonesia. Don't forget that South-East Asia is also home to hundreds of millions of muslims.

In conversations with them, many times the subject of Islamic militants has been brought up. Every single time, it is condemned by these muslims. But, in the same breath they condemn the injustices heaped upon the Arab/muslim world by prominent western countries.

One more interesting point - many of them say that in countries like Malaysia and Indonesia, the younger generation of muslims are rather less than committed to orthodox Islamic practices. They enjoy music, dancing, occasionally alcohol... Hell, I spent my New Years Eve party last year in a pub with muslims! From the Middle East, no less!

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the terrorists are truly a minority in the arab and muslim world. The only reason you see such high feeling in Palestinian territories, Iraq and Saudi Arabia is because they are dealing with death every day.

[CptStern]

the arabs who want to kill americans have legitimate reasons for doing so...at least in their minds. They've seen their family members killed in US airstrikes against their training camps...there are women and children in these camps as well as terrorists. They've seen the results of US intervention in their homelands, in their neighbours homeland, in their own government. They've witnessed how the western world turns a blind eye to the ever disappearing arab state that is now occupied palestine; land that the western world promised them in 1947 when they divided up israel. They see an ever increasing US influence on their way of life, they see foreign investors, foreign businesses that are molding governments to do their bidding as encroaching on their way of life. The US has a long history of coups, regime changes, and the backing of radical groups for their own purposes have built up a long standing distrust of american intervention.


a little background info (http://www.counterpunch.org/chomskyintv.html)

some of you here need to pick up a book and dispell some of the idiotic notions you may have about arabs. Dont forget that most germans didnt hate jews until Hitler gave them a reason to

[babywax]

the arabs who want to kill americans have legitimate reasons for doing so...at least in their minds. They've seen their family members killed in US airstrikes against their training camps...there are women and children in these camps as well as terrorists.

Oops, we killed the people who live in terrorist training camps, big mistake.


the arabs who want to kill americans have legitimate reasons for doing so...at least in their minds.

That doesn't change that they're irrational reasons, whether or not they're rational in the terrorist's minds.

[Sprafa]

Oops, we killed the people who live in terrorist training camps, big mistake.



No, you tried to hit a training camp and actually hit a pre-school....

[Pogrom]

Oops, we killed the people who live in terrorist training camps, big mistake.

So you support the killing of innocent women and children that are not being trained to be terrorists? Just by living in a terrorist training camp they've signed their own death warrant?

Please... :rolleyes:

That doesn't change that they're irrational reasons, whether or not they're rational in the terrorist's minds.

Why are they irrational?

Self-defence. Freedom. Justice. Revenge. That is why Palestinian terrorists are fighting.

[Warbie]

In other places, women are beaten, burned, raped and stoned because they exit the house without permission and so on.

That's terrible, no one denies this. Does this mean all Arabs hate us? of course not. The events that took place under Taliban rule in Afghanistan were undeniably wrong also but, as el Chi pointed out, not representative. Attrocities like this aren't unique to Muslims, they're unique to humans.

Look at actions of the Lord's Resistance Army, a group of Christian fundamentalist loonies, in Africa. For 15 years they've killed, tortured, maimed, raped and abducted large numbers of civilians, mainly children who are then trained as soldiers. Does this have any bearing on Christians over the world? of course not.

There's millions of Muslims living in many countries all over the world. American and UK television is giving people a very narrow, and biased view, of the Muslim world.

In a city with millions of Muslims we'll see footage of 30 people jumping up and down while burning an American flag, while the rest of the population are nowhere to be seen (they're probably having dinner, or watching the tv). What about the famous footage of Sadams statue being ripped down to the cheers of an Iraqi crowd? (the one where a guy started beating it with his sandal). What we don't hear is that the whole shot was staged, that they had to wait for the cameras to arrive. What looked like a massive crowd of people turned out to be a small group (as subsequent shots, where the camera panned out, prove) Simple directors tricks, as used in the movies. I've studied History, and this is propaganda, pure and simple. And it's happening all the time ........ when was the last time you heard about Muslims in a positive light?

Millions of people are being judged by the actions of a few, and it's disgusting.

(i'm sure some people will condemn me for being a communist, anti-American, tree hugging, vegetarian for having these views. But then again, some people believe only what they see on the news and read on the Internet)

[CptStern]

Oops, we killed the people who live in terrorist training camps, big mistake.


That doesn't change that they're irrational reasons, whether or not they're rational in the terrorist's minds.


how is it irrational to want to take revenge for the death of a loved one?

[Recoil]

I mean, half of Europe hates Americans too

Uhm... no?! Many people just do not quite like the current US-administration/it's foreign policy; plus there are some retarted youths, who think hating the US would be cool and alternative... but noone really despites 300 Million people; claiming that would be close to an insult.

[Chewcky]

Its not even close to the vast majority of arabs that hate us, its the radical dictators and terrorist groups that do almost all the hating. I know tons of soldiers over in iraq and the general people dont feel any hate towards us. Some people are so misinformed.

[The Monkey]

If you guys would understand how alike Islam and Christianity are. We belive in the same god, they belive in Jesus etc.

[Jackal hit]

The West destroyed their Empire in 1919

actually the british dismantled the turkish ottoman empire, and then drew arbitrary lines on a map regardless of cultures or what not in the middle east. what was left of turkey was the only area where the western powers were unable to excercise their will. and where's that damned greek cypriot who said he'd tear apart my arguments about turkey. he never replied to my posts way back when on the cyprus issue. anyways...

this thread has got to have some of the worst cases of cultural relativism i've ever seen. media's got nothing on this. every arab, persian and palestinian i've known (native to the middle east) has had nothing but love for ever other person. they've been some of the nicest people i've met. they live in fear because of attitudes such as what's been voiced on this thread. they fear that because they're arabic/mideastern in background, they will be hated and discriminated against. sadly this is what's going on, often.

hell i'm not arabic buy my mom tells me that she's discriminated against at her work from time to time, because she is turkish. turks are most definitely NOT arabic, but because of the propaganda here in the states, many people think turks are arabs... i've even met some racism in highschool because of my HALF turkish background... and i don't even look turkish.

all of this is sick really; the anti-americans and the anti-middle east sides. ask yourselves honestly: can you really hate a person who's never wronged you except for being from a certain place, and having a certain skin color and religious background?

[Jackal hit]

If you guys would understand how alike Islam and Christianity are. We belive in the same god, they belive in Jesus etc.
this is true. 100% of the muslims i know say it's a sin to speak a bad word about jesus. mulsims and christians are very similar if you know anything.

[Sprafa]

I already said, we've made Cruzades agaisnt the Arabs, I say they have every right to make a Jihad agaisnt us.

And Jesus was also a prophet for Islam, however he was not the Son of God (allah is just a the God in Arab, although Islam allows something like 22 sacred names for him)

[Jackal hit]

I already said, we've made Cruzades agaisnt the Arabs, I say they have every right to make a Jihad agaisnt us.
crusades against the turks too. who do you think controlled the middle east for most of that period. the seljuks did. but look at turkey now... that's one of the most progressive countries in the world i'd have to say. although countless people will try to make you believe otherwise... but i have nothing to say to them. i think part of the reason the middle east(apart from turkey) is so f*cked is because of how the land was divided up after it was taken from the turks during WWI.

well... that and the whole isreal thing pissed a lot of the arab world off. but hebrews have been native to that land for a LOOOOONG time. hell, the ancestors of the hebrews conquered egypt back in... hmm... i wanna say 3500 bc... it was some time shortly before or after the upper and lower kingdoms of egypt were unified... i think... i can't remember my ancient history class very well right now hm... anyways to say the israelis have no place in the middle east is kinda ignorant of history, i think...

[Baal]

What I've come to understand is, the whole world pretty much hates the US.

Americans are stubborn, full of themselves, and don't care about/respect other religions and cultures.

Anything that goes on outside of their borders don't seem to concern them, unless it will eventually concern them (terrorism, possibility of war on American Soil).

I'm not saying all Americans are like this, just some.

Ever notice how even Americans often wear Canadian Flags when traveling? It's because if people see the American Flag or assume you're American, you're treated like garbage. Or mugged.

[Eejit]

Uhm... no?! Many people just do not quite like the current US-administration/it's foreign policy; plus there are some retarted youths, who think hating the US would be cool and alternative... but noone really despites 300 Million people; claiming that would be close to an insult.

Yeah 'hate' is too strong a word, but it's true that many people in Europe don't exactly love America, and wouldn't put it in their top 10 favourite countries.

[CptStern]

even canadians who live right next door are a little weary of americans. We like to think of them as an older cousin who's a bit of a bully and isnt all that bright.

[Recoil]

Yeah 'hate' is too strong a word, but it's true that many people in Europe don't exactly love America, and wouldn't put it in their top 10 favourite countries.

Maybe... but I personally can't understand how someone can say "Oh, Americans are so stupid, ignorant, bla...", probably without knowing any Americans. I mean, there surely are some strange people in the US, that do say strange things... but every country has it's idiots, right? And the example I wrote above implicits that all Americans are that way. 300 Million. Come on, how can one be that ignorant?

And no, I'm not an US-Citizen, I just want to make clear that intolerance & prejudices suck...

[Sprafa]

How can you explain that Americans vote for Bush if they're not ignorant ?

The entire world is against him, but they don't give a shit about the World opinion!!!

edit - I jsut considered the consequences of this post and well, I'll take my chances.

[ScopeD]

I just want to point out that no country nor continent should be blamed from the actions of a small minority group.

[CptStern]

How can you explain that Americans vote for Bush if they're not ignorant ?

The entire world is against him, but they don't give a shit about the World opinion!!!

edit - I jsut considered the consequences of this post and well, I'll take my chances.

most americans didnt vote

Al gore actually got more votes (http://www.legitgov.org/index_hot_April5.html)

[Sprafa]

most americans didnt vote

Al gore actually got more votes (http://www.legitgov.org/index_hot_April5.html)

I mean now, not then.

[CptStern]

I mean now, not then.


:) hehe ...ok then I agree :)

[Pogrom]

well... that and the whole isreal thing pissed a lot of the arab world off. but hebrews have been native to that land for a LOOOOONG time. hell, the ancestors of the hebrews conquered egypt back in... hmm... i wanna say 3500 bc... it was some time shortly before or after the upper and lower kingdoms of egypt were unified... i think... i can't remember my ancient history class very well right now hm... anyways to say the israelis have no place in the middle east is kinda ignorant of history, i think...
[/tangent]

I don't think that the creation of Israel is viewed as the biggest problem by the arab world.

In my opinion it is the terrible injustices being heaped upon the Palestinians, by a state that constantly defies international law. How has Israel been able to get away with this? Simple -> by having the support of the US.

Palestinians are treated like criminals, they are refugees in their own land. The usual channels to redress their grievances do not work, as the US is shielding Israel from the UN and international law.

Even most Arabs are kind, generous and decent human beings, you cannot deny that there is a widespread feeling of discontent with America over this issue.

[babywax]

So you support the killing of innocent women and children that are not being trained to be terrorists? Just by living in a terrorist training camp they've signed their own death warrant?

Exactly, if you live with terrorists and you get bombed, YOU SHOULD HAVE EXPECTED IT.

I'm not going to go live in a cave with osama bin laden and act like I'm not going to get bombed, use your brain.


No, you tried to hit a training camp and actually hit a pre-school
(paraphrased)
Accidents happen, some times they're horrible horrible accidents and sometimes they happen. Accidents are how a lot of people die.


how is it irrational to want to take revenge for the death of a loved one?

If someone from the canadian army accidentally drops a bomb on my house, I'm not going to attack canada with an AK47 and then suicide bomb a church full of people.

[CptStern]

Exactly, if you live with terrorists and you get bombed, YOU SHOULD HAVE EXPECTED IT.

I'm not going to go live in a cave with osama bin laden and act like I'm not going to get bombed, use your brain, it's there for a reason.

well now you see how some terrorists think all americans should be killed:
"Exactly, if you live in america and you get bombed, YOU SHOULD HAVE EXPECTED IT"


If someone from the canadian army accidentally drops a bomb on my house, I'm not going to attack canada with an AK47 and then suicide bomb a church full of people.

and so what would you do? sue the military? the government? ya I'm sure that will work for a terrorist who's family was killed...incidently how many men are now terrorists because their family was killed in air raids in iraq? they werent terrorists before the invasion

[Sprafa]

well, too many accidents like that bring hatred to their minds....

[wayne white]

its obvious everybody hates us there because we are allied with a bunch of murderes and land robbers who are killing 12 years old kids with helicopters.

[babywax]

"Exactly, if you live in america and you get bombed, YOU SHOULD HAVE EXPECTED IT"

No, we don't target civilians, we're not COWARDS. Sure, mistakes are made in war, but targetting civilians isn't war, it's terrorism. That's what seperates the terrorists from our soldiers. We target TERRORIST TRAINING CAMPS, not "You killed 3000 of our people, we're going to nuke your country now."


well, too many accidents like that bring hatred to their minds....

Good point Sprafa.


and so what would you do? sue the military? the government? ya I'm sure that will work for a terrorist who's family was killed...incidently how many men are now terrorists because their family was killed in air raids in iraq? they werent terrorists before the invasion

Hypothetical situation:
You're living in Canada and your house is bombed accidentally by the U.S. in a training operation, just like that thing that happened a while back. What do you do?
By your rationale you strap a bomb on your back and detonate yourself in the Whitehouse.

[CptStern]

No, we don't target civilians, we're not COWARDS. Sure, mistakes are made in war, but targetting civilians isn't war, it's terrorism. That's what seperates the terrorists from our soldiers. We target TERRORIST TRAINING CAMPS, not "You killed 3000 of our people, we're going to nuke your country now."

so there was 10,000 accidents during the war? 10,000 iraqi civilians killed by coalition forces....accidentily..all 10,000? In the first war there was 30,000 civilian casualties...so were they all accidental?

Hypothetical situation:
You're living in Canada and your house is bombed accidentally by the U.S. in a training operation, just like that thing that happened a while back. What do you do?
By your rationale you strap a bomb on your back and detonate yourself in the Whitehouse.

your situation doesnt pan out because you said :

"and your house is bombed accidentally "

firing missles at camps that intelligence clearly shows are full of women and children is not "accidental"

[babywax]

If they're living in a terrorist training camp they're probably already a terrorist anyway.

so there was 10,000 accidents during the war? 10,000 iraqi civilians killed by coalition forces....accidentily?

Link please.

EDIT:

firing missles at camps that intelligence clearly shows are full of women and children is not "accidental"

Another link please.

[CptStern]

what does an infant know about politics?

[babywax]

Can't support your argument?

[CptStern]

If they're living in a terrorist training camp they're probably already a terrorist anyway.

Link please.

here you go (http://www.iraqbodycount.net)

[babywax]

I hate to sound like an ass, but where do they get their numbers? Iraqbodycount.com just doesn't seem like a credible source to me.

[CptStern]

they have a list of all their sources on their website, because after all the US isnt keeping a running tab, so somebody has to do it

"We don’t do body counts”
- General Tommy Franks, US Central Command


but it doesnt really matter...I can prove the US has never cared about the civilians in iraq:

"When asked on US television if she [Madeline Albright, US Secretary of State] thought that the death of half a million Iraqi children [from sanctions in Iraq] was a price worth paying, Albright replied: "This is a very hard choice, but we think the price is worth it." (http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/MiddleEast/Iraq/DoubleStandards.asp)

[babywax]

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/bodycount.htm
Ehh, this lists all civilians killed by terrorists too, it's not just U.S./England/whoever's bombs going off target, or some Marine accidentally shooting a woman.

EDIT:
This also caught my eye:

the breakdown in law and order, and deaths due to inadequate health care or sanitation.

Hmm, I wonder how good their health care was under Saddam? I wonder if they bothered to get a count of the deaths due to these causes under Saddam, and then did the math.

[CptStern]

iraq had the highest infant death rate during the sanctions, but had one of the highest infant survival rates before the sanctions

btw did you miss this line:

This database includes up to 7,350 deaths which resulted from coalition military action during the "major-combat" phase prior to May 1st 2003

[Sprafa]

name - Abd al-Razzaq al-Lami - sex - M where - Sadr City, Baghdad date - 05-Dec-03 how - Crushed by tank

insurgents, are we ?

[babywax]

Target: US convoy?
Target: US military convoy
Target: possibly coalition HQ
Target: Al Karma Hotel or Australian embassy
Target: police chief or US military convoy
Target: US base and checkpoint

Lots more, I only went down the page a tiny bit.

[CptStern]

Lots more, I only went down the page a tiny bit.


Target: wedding party (air strikes)
Target: Dutch journalists, whose Iraqi driver and bodyguard were killed (gunfire)
Target: car carrying Japanese journalists and translator (rocket propelled grenade, car caught fire)
Target: home destroyed in fighting
Target: buses carrying Pakistani pilgrims (gunfire or bombs)
Target: 'insurgents' - three children and ABC TV cameraman among the dead
Target: detained 52-year-old ex-Baath official Nagem Sadoon Hatab (US Marines said to have 'snapped a bone in his throat,' and 'karate-kick[ed] Hatab in chest')
Target: scientist in US custody ('blunt force injury')

Lots more, I only went down the page a tiny bit

[babywax]

I thought the website only listed civilian deaths which resulted from U.S. mistakes?

[CptStern]

I thought the website only listed civilian deaths which resulted from U.S. mistakes?

no they list all deaths related to the invasion

[babywax]

That seems silly, you said earlier:

so there was 10,000 accidents during the war? 10,000 iraqi civilians killed by coalition forces....accidentily?

Lots of those weren't our doing.

[CptStern]

yes it was...if the US didnt invade they would still be alive

[babywax]

yes it was...if the US didnt invade they would still be alive

How can you say that? We didn't kill them.
There are so many events leading up to a person's death, how can you possibly hold people accountable?

If I hadn't taken a left that shortcut my wife wouldn't have died in a car crash.


EDIT:
Another one, that better demonstrates my point. And it's real too.
My dad had a friend once, he used to work with him, not really close. I can't remember the friend's name but I'll just call him Frank.
Frank was in a small car accident, nothing big, but he had some dents in his car as well as the lady who hit him. Well, he didn't want to get out of his car after they pulled over, she wanted him to get out and exchange insurance information. Finally, she persuaded him to get out. He gets out, and a drunk driver hits him and pins him against his car. He lives, but he is in a wheelchair the rest of his life. (He lated committed suicide)

You can't blame the lady for that, there's no way she could have known what happened would have happened.

[CptStern]

easy...they invade people die

no invasion = no deaths

[babywax]

No invasion, and Saddam is still in power. You're not going to dispute the fact that Saddam was killing people left and right are you? Not to mention his two sons.
No invasion = more deaths.

See my above post too, I edited it a little late.

[CptStern]

No invasion, and Saddam is still in power. You're not going to dispute the fact that Saddam was killing people left and right are you? Not to mention his two sons.
No invasion = more deaths.

See my above post too, I edited it a little late.


saddam would have to kill another 250,000 of his own people to catch up to the number killed by the two wars and 12 years of sanctions

[CptStern]

You can't blame the lady for that, there's no way she could have known what happened would have happened.

it's not the same scenario...the US knew what the price of invading iraq would be, they had a choice, just like they had a choice when they took responsibility for killing 500,000 iraqi women and children:

"When asked on US television if she [Madeline Albright, US Secretary of State] thought that the death of half a million Iraqi children [from sanctions in Iraq] was a price worth paying, Albright replied: "This is a very hard choice, but we think the price is worth it."

[babywax]

it's not the same scenario...the US knew what the price of invading iraq would be, they had a choice, just like they had a choice when they took responsibility for killing 500,000 iraqi women and children:

Ahh, madeline albright, she's a stupid *****, she's the one that let the Rowanda Tutsi(sp?) massacre happen without sending any troops it to stop it.

I thought we were talking about the current war in Iraq, not the first?



saddam would have to kill another 250,000 of his own people to catch up to the number killed by the two wars and 12 years of sanctions

Some estimates of the amount of people he has killed go over 2 million.

And by the way, those sanctions weren't imposed by the U.S. alone, they were put in place by the U.N.

[CptStern]

Ahh, madeline albright, she's a stupid *****, she's the one that let the Rowanda Tutsi(sp?) massacre happen without sending any troops it to stop it.

I thought we were talking about the current war in Iraq, not the first?



Some estimates of the amount of people he has killed go over 2 million.

And by the way, those sanctions weren't imposed by the U.S. alone, they were put in place by the U.N.


please everyone knows it was the US that pressured the UN.

saddam didnt kill 2 million of his own. That number is highly inflated and includes 500,000 iranians killed during the iraq-iran war...some estimates are between 150 K and 250 K

it's funny how you slam albright for not intervening in Rwanda, yet make no mention of her cold statement that 500,000 dead iraqi children was "worth it"

[Lil' Timmy]

lol sprafa.. when did i say that line in your sig. i remeber typing it, but i can't recall the context.

stern, baby.. why don't you guys try getting back on-topic?

[babywax]

Saddam didn't disarm. It was entirely his fault, he had shown he couldn't handle the power and he was a tyrannical dictator, no matter what the cost you HAVE to stand up for what is right. You can't let someone kill and kill and then allow him to KEEP his weapons, it just doesn't work like that. You can't let evil people stay in power, you can't give an inch to them. Look at what Neville Chamberlain did in WW2, appeasing Hitler and Mussolini to try to avoid the war. I don't think that worked well.
The sanctions however were NOT the right way to do it, Saddam needed to be taken out of power and that's what the U.S. is trying (succeeded) to correct.

[babywax]

Want to just stop arguing? I don't think we're going to convince eachother of anything, plus I'm getting tired of typing ;)

[[Matt]]

One thing you people shouldnt do and what the vast majority of muslims do not do is take the koran word for word as Islamic law. Islam IS a religion of peace and freedom but its unfortunate that a tiny minority of muslims DO treat thier holy book in such a way that they can twist the meaning of certain passages for thier own gain. One reason why this minority act in such an extreme manner is that much of the Islamic world rightfully feels that the western world has cheated them by taking away palastine from the arabs and giving it to the jews. If you want to know more on this issue then do a google search for 'the balfour declaration'

If every christian were to take the bible word for word then we would all be living in the dark ages. There are passages in the bible that advocate Slavery, the oppression of women and even incest!

[CptStern]

Saddam didn't disarm. It was entirely his fault, he had shown he couldn't handle the power and he was a tyrannical dictator, no matter what the cost you HAVE to stand up for what is right. You can't let someone kill and kill and then allow him to KEEP his weapons, it just doesn't work like that. You can't let evil people stay in power, you can't give an inch to them. Look at what Neville Chamberlain did in WW2, appeasing Hitler and Mussolini to try to avoid the war. I don't think that worked well.
The sanctions however were NOT the right way to do it, Saddam needed to be taken out of power and that's what the U.S. is trying (succeeded) to correct.


yes but they were saddam's allies when he was at his worst...it didnt seem to bother them then

sure I can leave this issue behind if you'd like...I too tire of rehashing the same points over and over...there's gotta be 10 threads where I say the same sort of thing

[Gunner]

']Islam IS a religion of peace and freedom.

Refer to my previous post:

Islam is a religion of peace! of fluffy pink bunnies and fruity ass candy and magic wonderful rainbows!!

LOL!

[Pogrom]

Hypothetical situation:
You're living in Canada and your house is bombed accidentally by the U.S. in a training operation, just like that thing that happened a while back. What do you do?
By your rationale you strap a bomb on your back and detonate yourself in the Whitehouse.

Your argument doesn't hold water, because the situations in Canada and the Middle East are so different.

1) Canadians have the infrastructure in place to seek redress. They can complain to their government, who can complain to the UN or directly to the US.

2) An innocent Iraqi civilian has nowhere to turn. He has no higher authority to complain to. He has no way of seeking compensation except for the vengeance of terrorism.

[Tr0n]

OT: Pogrom your sig is intresting. :) The 1st Bush warned of this happening....but his stubborn son didn't listen.Also in war both sides lose....there is no such thing as winning or losing.

[Tr0n]

Damn typos....I mean to say is...Once you declare war, you have already lost.

[babywax]

2) An innocent Iraqi civilian has nowhere to turn. He has no higher authority to complain to. He has no way of seeking compensation except for the vengeance of terrorism.

That's what we're there to put in place.

[DreamThrall]

It amuses me how many people on this post are experts on the Arab world and the religion of Islam.

The only person that I noticed that has a semblance of a clue was Warbie... but then, what do I know... I'm not an Arab.

[Gunner]

It amuses me how many people on this post are experts on the Arab world and the religion of Islam.

The only person that I noticed that has a semblance of a clue was Warbie... but then, what do I know... I'm not an Arab.

AMAGAWD have you heard of books? or documentaries? television? the media? the news?

[Cybernoid]

No, I haven't but that doesn't mean one can't get a relatively objective view.
I went to an international college so I did get to meet people from the Middle East. I live in a very Muslim area of London, so I've mingled more than a little with the "Arab world" (and yes Muslims everywhere count). I'm not saying I'm completely right, I'm not ignoring that many countries in the Middle East are oppressive and have terrible human rights records (although many Western countries also are on Amnesty's blacklist) I'm just saying that the simplicity people found in providing "them vs. us" answers without allowing for the possibility that it might be slightly more complex than that was sad. Some of them were borderline racist.

That doesn't give you any kind of view into the middle-east, which is not the same thing as a muslim student in the western world.

That's terrible, no one denies this. Does this mean all Arabs hate us? of course not. The events that took place under Taliban rule in Afghanistan were undeniably wrong also but, as el Chi pointed out, not representative. Attrocities like this aren't unique to Muslims, they're unique to humans.

To my understanding, what I described is almost standard practise in the middle-east.

I already said, we've made Cruzades agaisnt the Arabs, I say they have every right to make a Jihad agaisnt us.

And the crusades occured... almost a millenia ago? :rolleyes:

but look at turkey now... that's one of the most progressive countries in the world i'd have to say. although countless people will try to make you believe otherwise...

What are you smoking? Turkey wouldn't know what progressive is even progressive danced naked on the roof and waved a flag that says "progressive."

Hmm, I wonder how good their health care was under Saddam? I wonder if they bothered to get a count of the deaths due to these causes under Saddam, and then did the math.

From what I've read, Iraq was much better off during Saddam.

[Edcrab]

I guess that's the problem; what's actually true? What's sensationalist junk aimed at provoking a reaction of any sort?

The thing about Islam is that, like Christianity and the Bible, there are plenty of interpretations of the Qu'ran. That's a point which goes unnoticed by many, but there are a variety of beliefs focusing on the core values of Islam, and as mentioned a great point of debate rests on the so-called sixth pillar.

The concept of "Jihad" has long been disputed, often due to arguments as to its original context. Some nations/organisations have literally rewritten the Qu'ran to support their actions; altered copies of the holy book have purportedly been found in places ranging from Afghanistan farming settlements to Iraqi homes.
In the version of the Qu’ran that I read, Jihad is made out as a purely defensive aspect of the religion; protecting Islam from obliteration or lesser hostilities. There, in fact, lies a further problem; some people are clearly interpreting that fairly mild statement to mean violence is justified in whichever situation they choose.

Terrorists are destructive to everyone involved, and yet removing them is difficult. The heavy bombing of Afghanistan would have been better replaced by earlier initiated air and ground expeditions. Back in the Troubles, it could be likened to England blowing the hell out of Ireland due to the actions of the IRA. Palestinian extremists undermine any approach to peace by actively seeking out civilian targets; Israel makes mistakes (and I use that term liberally in regards to their somewhat suspicious approach to military actions as whole) but the extremists killed a busload of thirty civilians literally two hours after Israel grudgingly bowed to international pressure and began to dismantle part of their controversial wall to reposition it. That is not going to improve anyone’s opinion or put sympathy in even the most empathic heart.

So I wouldn’t say that every Arab “hates us”, but perhaps the governing powers of particular Arabic states do. The west has a history of conflict with the middle east ranging back to the Crusades, and we clash on all manner of matters; human rights, decadence, industry… it seems we can’t forget the past because a Crusade of a different kind is now occurring.

[Sprafa]

And the crusades occured... almost a millenia ago? :rolleyes:


So, because it was a long time ago, they're supposed to forgive us and move along?

It left a major mark in their society, it's like the entire American continent to forget they were ever dominated by Europe....

[Pogrom]

That's what we're there to put in place.

So you agree that your argument was null and void?

So the relatives of the innocent people being killed are justified in their use of action?

[babywax]

No. We're there to provide a democracy. They have absolutely no justification for using any violence against us, whatsoever. They have a REASON, but no justification.

edit:


From what I've read, Iraq was much better off during Saddam.

As long as you weren't on the Olympic team ;)

[Pogrom]

No. We're there to provide a democracy. They have absolutely no justification for using any violence against us, whatsoever. They have a REASON, but no justification.

Seeing the US's poor history of nation building and installing democracy, that seems a weak argument.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be saying:

1) The US funded radical anti-democracy groups in the middle east
2) The US supported Saddam Hussein during the killing of the Kurds
3) US and UN sanctions killed millions, an action that the then Secretary of State described as "Justified
4) The US killed thousands of innocent bystanders during the overthrow of Saddam
5) The US supported Israel during the illegal in inhumane actions against the Palestinians.

"All the above are reasons for the extremists to take action, but they are not justified now, because we're giving them democracy!!!"

[babywax]

Poor history installing democracy? Are you talking about in the middle east? I hope so.
Japan and Germany were both set up after world war 2 almost exclusively by the U.S.


3) US and UN sanctions killed millions, an action that the then Secretary of State described as "Justified

Saddam had to disarm. We should have attacked him then instead of doing those stupid sanctions, but for some stupid reason we didn't.


1) The US funded radical anti-democracy groups in the middle east

Another stupid move, but the reasoning was that they would take Saddam out of power and then we could use them to set up a democracy.


4) The US killed thousands of innocent bystanders during the overthrow of Saddam

Saddam killed hundreds of thousands (going by the previous poster's estimates to be fair).


"All the above are reasons for the extremists to take action, but they are not justified now, because we're giving them democracy!!!"

They aren't justified now, and they never were.

[Pogrom]

Poor history installing democracy? Are you talking about in the middle east? I hope so.
Japan and Germany were both set up after world war 2 almost exclusively by the U.S.

Of the 13 nations that the US has attempted to install democracy, only 2 have been successes - Germany and Japan.

That is a success rate of roughly 15%. I'd call that a poor history.

Here (www.rand.org/publications/MR/MR1753/MR1753.sum.pdf) is a link to a case study of seven of the thirteen nations. Makes for some interesting reading.


Saddam had to disarm. We should have attacked him then instead of doing those stupid sanctions, but for some stupid reason we didn't.
Another stupid move, but the reasoning was that they would take Saddam out of power and then we could use them to set up a democracy.
Saddam killed hundreds of thousands (going by the previous poster's estimates to be fair).

They aren't justified now, and they never were.

How are they not justified? The West seems to see the use of force as justified, even when they are not 'installing democracy'. Why can the west use force and the middle east not?

[DreamThrall]

AMAGAWD have you heard of books? or documentaries? television? the media? the news?

You can watch as many documentaries and read as many books as you like, but you still won't get the one thing you really need:

Perspective.

Living in a 3rd world country has got to give someone a perception of the rest of the world that we, living in "the west", couldn't possibly understand. I'm willing to bet that THIS is one of the reasons why they hate us:

Arrogance.

We assume that if we watch enough FOX news, or enough History Channel documentaries, we will know everything about their culture and history.

[babywax]

How are they not justified? The West seems to see the use of force as justified, even when they are not 'installing democracy'. Why can the west use force and the middle east not?

First of all, we're a democracy. We're not a single person who decides he doesn't like a country and then joins a terrorist cell with a bunch of other people who decided the same way. We rule by majority, or in this case the president ruled with help from lots of advisors and information from one of the world's top intelligence agencies.
Second: WE ARE NOT TARGETTING CIVILIANS. Do you understand that? We target only the people who hold guns, we do not organize to attack CIVILIANS. Mistakes happen some times.
Once the middle east has an actual government set up (and not a dictatorship like Saddam's) then they can actually make informed decisions on when and when not to use force.

[CptStern]

sigh .....7,350 civilian deaths in little more than a month is a lot of mistakes. If the US was cautious about killing civilians they wouldnt use weapons such a cluster bombs (against geneva conventions) or use saturation/carpet bombing

[Gunner]

You can watch as many documentaries and read as many books as you like, but you still won't get the one thing you really need:

Perspective.

I've lived in the middle east for fourteen years, want to hear what's my "perspective"? **** the middle east. ****'em all.

[Devilphish]

"The right of a nation to determine its own form of government does not include the right to establish a slave society (that is, to legalize the enslavement of some men by others). There is no such thing as 'the right to enslave.'

"Dictatorship nations are outlaws. Any free nation had the right to invade Nazi Germany and, today, has the right to invade Soviet Russia, Cuba or any other slave pen. Whether a free nation chooses to do so or not is a matter of its own self-interest, not of respect for the non-existent 'rights' of gang rulers. It is not a free nation's duty to liberate other nations at the price of self-sacrifice, but a free nation has the right to do it, when and if it so chooses."

-Ayn Rand

[CptStern]

Ayn rand is an author of fiction, she has no more weight in her words than I do

[Devilphish]

I know next to nothing about her, I just posted those quotes because I happen to agree with those statements. IMO, Islam needs to be eradicated from the world completely, but there is no logical way to do it without causing more disruption in the mid-east. The next best way to set things right there is to invade each dictatorship and set up a proper and free form of government. This will cause more disruption for a short while, then things will settle down into much better conditions than they were beforehand. Under the conditions of living in some of these slave nations, it's no wonder people are driven to hatred and eager to die for false and illogical beliefes, and take innocent lives with them in the process. In this age there should be some effort in bringing the rest of the world into a more enlightened form of government, and it is more than acceptable to use force in the case of the stragglers and hardheads like the slave dictatorships in the mid-east. This is why the war in Iraq was justified with or without WMD, or wether our main motivation was oil or not.

But thats just the way I see it. :upstare:

[Pogrom]

First of all, we're a democracy. We're not a single person who decides he doesn't like a country and then joins a terrorist cell with a bunch of other people who decided the same way. We rule by majority, or in this case the president ruled with help from lots of advisors and information from one of the world's top intelligence agencies.
Second: WE ARE NOT TARGETTING CIVILIANS. Do you understand that? We target only the people who hold guns, we do not organize to attack CIVILIANS. Mistakes happen some times.
Once the middle east has an actual government set up (and not a dictatorship like Saddam's) then they can actually make informed decisions on when and when not to use force.

So if the terrorists starting targeting soldiers again (like when they set off that boat bomb next to the US aircraft carrier) then they'll be justified in using force?

You still haven't addressed the issue of the extremists having no real recourse except for terrorist action. Even though the US is trying to install a democracy right now, in the past the only way for them to express themselves was through action.

And the "We're a democracy, they aren't" argument is invalid also.

Okay - so one country decides to use force... What about international democracy? Shouldn't this be decided upon by a majority of nations?

What is the point of installing democracy in other countries if everything at the top level of society is going to be decided by one country?

[CptStern]

IMO, Islam needs to be eradicated from the world completely, but there is no logical way to do it without causing more disruption in the mid-east.

you cant be serious? while you're at it get rid of christianity because some of the radicals are dangerous...in fact lets just kill anyone who remotely looks suspiscious.

btw Ayn Rand was an author who was often accused of being communist because of her "collectivism" ideology. She's best known for her books: Atlas Shrugged, and The FountainHead

[Pogrom]

IMO, Islam needs to be eradicated from the world completely.
But thats just the way I see it. :upstare:

Would you please like to explain that point of view to the millions of peace-loving, law-abiding muslims of the world?

Being a muslim does not mean being against freedom and democracy. I am amazed sometimes :rolleyes:

[Devilphish]

Okay - so one country decides to use force... What about international democracy? Shouldn't this be decided upon by a majority of nations?


No. ANY free nation has the right to invade a rogue, slave dictatorship. They are an outlaw nation that needs to be set right for the good of it's citizens. No nation is obligated to invade them, but if they have an interest in it any free nation has the right to. Outlaw nations have no right to not be invaded. A free nation does not need the permission of any other nation, free or otherwise, to invade an outlaw nation. This is the only way to move forward. We must think of the greater good. All men have the basic right to be free. This is the most fundamental right of all. If a nation imposes slavery on it's citizens, it has no right to be safe from invasion.

[Pogrom]

No. ANY free nation has the right to invade a rogue, slave dictatorship. They are an outlaw nation that needs to be set right for the good of it's citizens. No nation is obligated to invade them, but if they have an interest in it any free nation has the right to. Outlaw nations have no right to not be invaded. A free nation does not need the permission of any other nation, free or otherwise, to invade an outlaw nation. This is the only way to move forward. We must think of the greater good. All men have the basic right to be free. This is the most fundamental right of all. If a nation imposes slavery on it's citizens, it has no right to be safe from invasion.

It does sound like you are living in a fantasy world.

[Warbie]

IMO, Islam needs to be eradicated from the world completely

That is one of the stupidest things i've ever read :/

Maybe we should eradicate all the idiots in this world - would save us reading such crap.

[Devilphish]

while you're at it get rid of christianity because some of the radicals are dangerous...in fact lets just kill anyone who remotely looks suspiscious.


Christianity is a religion of peace. Although some of it's members are meatheads, the religion itself is peaceful. Islam is not. Islam encouranges eradification of the infidels and horrendous violence against innocents. Givernments based on this religion are tyrannical and oppressive. Although some people are capable of practicing Islam without murdering infidels, this is only due to the natural sense of wrong and right within every normal human being. The people who practice it in a peaceful way are doing so only by ingoring the violent commands of their holy book. The fact remains that the religion of Islam is hateful and a scourge of society.

[CptStern]

No. ANY free nation has the right to invade a rogue, slave dictatorship. They are an outlaw nation that needs to be set right for the good of it's citizens. No nation is obligated to invade them, but if they have an interest in it any free nation has the right to. Outlaw nations have no right to not be invaded. A free nation does not need the permission of any other nation, free or otherwise, to invade an outlaw nation. This is the only way to move forward. We must think of the greater good. All men have the basic right to be free. This is the most fundamental right of all. If a nation imposes slavery on it's citizens, it has no right to be safe from invasion.

"The United Nations Charter requires that countries exhaust all peaceful means of maintaining global security before taking military action, and permitting the use of force in self-defense only in response to actual or imminent attack"

here read this: The US signed the charter and therefore bound to it (http://www.prioritypeace.org/Q&A/law.html)

[ComradeBadger]

Islam. Is. Not. A. Religioun. That. Encourages. Extremism.

It's people like you that let the pro-Iraq-war side down with your stupid views.

[CptStern]

Christianity is a religion of peace. Although some of it's members are meatheads, the religion itself is peaceful. Islam is not. Islam encouranges eradification of the infidels and horrendous violence against innocents. Givernments based on this religion are tyrannical and oppressive. Although some people are capable of practicing Islam without murdering infidels, this is only due to the natural sense of wrong and right within every normal human being. The people who practice it in a peaceful way are doing so only by ingoring the violent commands of their holy book. The fact remains that the religion of Islam is hateful and a scourge of society.

are we talking about the same religion? christianity about peace????????? the Crusades, the inquisition, witch burning etc...these were peaceful events?

[babywax]

Okay - so one country decides to use force... What about international democracy? Shouldn't this be decided upon by a majority of nations?

What is the point of installing democracy in other countries if everything at the top level of society is going to be decided by one country?

The sanctions were imposed by the UN, and they were not obeyed by Saddam, but high level politics are not always, shall we say, entirely honest.


So if the terrorists starting targeting soldiers again (like when they set off that boat bomb next to the US aircraft carrier) then they'll be justified in using force?

They won't be justified, but they will atleast gain enough respect for us to listen to them. I have absolutely NO respect whatsoever for ANYONE who targets civilians. If they feel they must use force against innocent people (whether or not they see them as innocent is irrelevant, they aren't well enough informed to make the decision) then, atleast for me, their word carries no weight.


You still haven't addressed the issue of the extremists having no real recourse except for terrorist action. Even though the US is trying to install a democracy right now, in the past the only way for them to express themselves was through action.

I understand that they have no other course. They will soon (hopefully). However, this does NOT justify what their attacks.


And the "We're a democracy, they aren't" argument is invalid also.

I don't see why?

EDIT:
And I would like to make it clear I don't see anything wrong with most of Islam.

EDIT2:
This will hopefully be my last post :P

[Devilphish]

The United Nations Charter requiring countries to exhaust all peaceful means of maintaining global security before taking military action, and permitting the use of force in self-defense only in response to actual or imminent attack"


The UN is corrupt and useless. The UN will never bring change to the places that need it. Iraq defied the orders of the UN for many years, and they sat on their thumbs doing nothing. If we had not taken action and brought liberation to the people of Iraq, the UN would still be twiddling their thumbs 30 years from now, issuing resolutions and not acting when they are defied. When they show the world no action will be taken when resolutions are defied, they become useless. No free nation should be influenced by such a useless system. No free nation should give up it's right to act on it's own interests because of such a useless organization.

[CptStern]

The fact remains that the religion of Islam is hateful and a scourge of society.

holy shit!!! where do you get this crap from?

[ComradeBadger]

Devilphish, I'm afraid if you don't cease your mindless abuse, this thread will be closed, and you may well face a ban of some length.

[CptStern]

The UN is corrupt and useless. The UN will never bring change to the places that need it. Iraq defied the orders of the UN for many years, and they sat on their thumbs doing nothing. If we had not taken action and brought liberation to the people of Iraq, the UN would still be twiddling their thumbs 30 years from now, issuing resolutions and not acting when they are defied. When they show the world no action will be taken when resolutions are defied, they become useless. No free nation should be influenced by such a useless system. No free nation should give up it's right to act on it's own interests because of such a useless organization.

ya you're right...the UN is useless...they should have charged the US with war crimes in the first gulf war...they had all the documents written up...oh and also for crimes against humanity in Panama, and Bosnia.

oh btw the US helped write the UN charters

[Devilphish]

are we talking about the same religion? christianity about peace????????? the Crusades, the inquisition, witch burning etc...these were peaceful events?

Those were violent people who took a peaceful religion and corrupted it to their own interests. The religion itself was not responsible. The religion of Islam is responsible for the tyrannical and oppressive governments in the mid-east because it encourages such. It's the people who practice Islam in peace who are not following all the commands.

[CptStern]

Devilphish, I'm afraid if you don't cease your mindless abuse, this thread will be closed, and you may well face a ban of some length.


not really my place to comment...but I dont think he should be banned for having an opinion...no matter how wrong it is...he hasnt said anything too hatefull...although the islam thing was rather close

[Pogrom]

The sanctions were imposed by the UN, and they were not obeyed by Saddam, but high level politics are not always, shall we say, entirely honest.

The resolutions were imposed by the UN, yes. But the US going in there was still tantamount to vigilanteism... i.e. NOT JUSTIFIED.

They won't be justified, but they will atleast gain enough respect for us to listen to them. I have absolutely NO respect whatsoever for ANYONE who targets civilians. If they feel they must use force against innocent people (whether or not they see them as innocent is irrelevant, they aren't well enough informed to make the decision) then, atleast for me, their word carries no weight.

Here is where you contradict yourself. They had been targeting soldiers before, but nobody listened to them with respect. If you were in their position, what would be the next logical step?

I understand that they have no other course. They will soon (hopefully). However, this does NOT justify what their attacks.

So they are supposed to just sit back and take it? You admitted hat they had no recourse. Were they just supposed to wait in hope that somehow some magical solution would present itself? Who would have predicted 4 years ago that America would take up nation-building again in the Middle East?

I don't see why?

EDIT:
And I would like to make it clear I don't see anything wrong with most of Islam.

EDIT2:
This will hopefully be my last post :P

[Devilphish]

Then answer this. Why doesn't a free nation of the right to invade a dictatorship nation? Why does the tyrannical government that oppresses and enslaves it's people have more of a right to keep it's people enslaved without interference from a free nation, and the enslaved and oppressed people have less of a right, or no right, to be liberated by the invading free nation? Who gave the tyrants the right to enslave and took away the peoples right to freedom and security in their own country? Why does an outlaw government who enslaves it's people have any rights to security from free nations at all?

[babywax]

The resolutions were imposed by the UN, yes. But the US going in there was still tantamount to vigilanteism... i.e. NOT JUSTIFIED.

Not justified? For how long did Saddam refuse to disarm?


Here is where you contradict yourself. They had been targeting soldiers before, but nobody listened to them with respect. If you were in their position, what would be the next logical step?

I've seen plenty of Iraqi's on Fox news (don't critisize me for watching it, I like O'Reilly and Cavuto). A lot hated Bush, a couple hated america. However, most seemed to like America, but this obviously can't be used as an indication that the middle-east likes america as the majority IN America will like America.
Right now they are listened to with LESS respect than before. They didn't get much of an audience before, but the audience they did get wasn't nearly as hateful towards them as now (I'm speaking about terrorists not muslims). Although they have a much larger audience, they are in a much worse situation.


Were they just supposed to wait in hope that somehow some magical solution would present itself?

I don't know all, I don't know what they should have done. I just know they shouldn't have done what they did.

[ComradeBadger]

not really my place to comment...but I dont think he should be banned for having an opinion...no matter how wrong it is...he hasnt said anything too hatefull...although the islam thing was rather close
Hence me saying may well. We don't ban for holding opinions, but that was pretty close to the bone.

Oh, and as a side point. Where would you rather live/work/raise a family...

Saddam's Iraq

Or the Iraq that should shortly be coming

?

[CptStern]

Hence me saying may well. We don't ban for holding opinions, but that was pretty close to the bone.

Oh, and as a side point. Where would you rather live/work/raise a family...

Saddam's Iraq

Or the Iraq that should shortly be coming

?

yes after I wrote that I re-read your post and I releazed you had said "may" be banned...but then it was too late to edit

It doesnt matter who is in charge of iraq...sooner or later it will revert to a dictatorship or worse a secular state...just like it did when the CIA supported Saddam after the 1963 coup that was orchestrated by the cia

[ComradeBadger]

So, let it be? You think we'll only make it work? Why bother to change anything, if it may not work :)

[babywax]

It doesnt matter who is in charge of iraq...sooner or later it will revert to a dictatorship or worse a secular state...just like it did when the CIA supported Saddam after the 1963 coup that was orchestrated by the cia

Well, I guess we'll see ;)

[Javert]

then you sir, are clueless...
"Those who speak don't know, those who know don't speak."

Just some things we've done to gain their ire:
Unpopular, pro-democratic regime change.
Economic sanctions damaging the livelihoods of the populace.
Brutal air bombings causing destruction and deaths.
Capitalist control of oil and businesses, resulting in localized bankruptcy.
Public criticism and ridicule of their faith and custom in the media and in politics.

[Edcrab]

*starts taking bets to whether we end up creating a violent dictatorship in Iraq*

Part of the bet is you'll have to live there, so if I lose you'll all be dead. Wee.

Those were violent people who took a peaceful religion and corrupted it to their own interests. The religion itself was not responsible. The religion of Islam is responsible for the tyrannical and oppressive governments in the mid-east because it encourages such. It's the people who practice Islam in peace who are not following all the commands.

I'm sorry to say it depends on which "form" of Islam is being adhered to- as has been stated. Look at the Jehova's Witnesses- they follow an altered edition of what is usually accepted as the original version of the Bible. Theoretically, any religion could be twisted and corrupted by terrorists for their own purposes. "Default" (ha) Islam is oddly similar to Christianity.

[Javert]

Christianity is a religion of peace. The fact remains that the religion of Islam is hateful and a scourge of society.

I hope admins can excuse my one and only time of pose-cussing by saying !@$%^.
I don't care if you have differing opinions, as a matter of fact I accept and promote unorthodox thought. But that is plain ignorance, unsupported in your statement and irrelevent to the issue at hand.
It's not religion, it's foreign policy and public prejudice on both sides.

[Tr0n]

I hope the admins or mods don't mind me saying this....but....

Devilphish you're a complete dumbass.

[Lil' Timmy]

that's "you're" not "your" :thumbs:

[Tr0n]

Oh yes thank you lil timmy....but I can't edit now.. :|

[Max_Payne]

well im canadian ... and im just gonna say this.... im a huge fan of the united states nothign wrong wit the country at all! very beautiful and cool. But man ohh man have u guys have had some **** ups for presidents. ....cough cough.. bush cough...

PEace

Mike
:cheers:

[Silent_night]

wow , pretty hot debate going on here, well i just wanna say i am muslim and it is a very peacfull religion(do some research on it) , beating women and killing innocent people has NOTHING to do with Islam. Muslims treat women with respect, now i cant say this for all muslims becuase it all depends on the person. A real muslim should not hate a person for being American or whatever, but whats wrong with our countires , is that people their dont learn, if they r being taught to hate Americans well, what else r they gonna learn? I dont hate Americans but i difinalty dont like all of them because they are not all that good either, we BOTH do mistakes. Pluse there are MANY stories u can find on arab sites (official sites) on American's killing innociant people , firing misslies , but u never hear these stories outside the arab world. Hopefully all these wars will end soon , i just hope Bush loses the next election. thanx


here is just a nice pic u can see , this was an earthquake that hit Turkey like about 6-7 years ago http://islamicweb.com/resources/turkey3.jpg

[Yakuza]

Actually, he is somewhat right. I mean, half of Europe hates Americans too, but they don’t shoot you guys down on a sight. Why? Because they have a good life.

If one is living with hate, how "good" of a life can he live.

[Yakuza]

holy shit!!! where do you get this crap from?

Probably the same place that you grabbed the assumption that Christianity is not peaceful because of 'some" people who commited un-christian things in the name of christianity.

are we talking about the same religion? christianity about peace????????? the Crusades, the inquisition, witch burning etc...these were peaceful events?


Christianity is not properly represented by the Inquisition and the Salem Witch Trials. Though these things happened in the name of "Christianity" it does not mean that this is what Christianity teaches. Instead, Christianity professions conversion by love not by torture. Those who you used coercive means did so against the Christian scriptures.

Matt. 5:43-44, “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor, and hate your enemy.’ 44 “But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you."
Rom. 16:19, "For the report of your obedience has reached to all; therefore I am rejoicing over you, but I want you to be wise in what is good, and innocent in what is evil."
Col. 4:5-6, "Conduct yourselves with wisdom toward outsiders, making the most of the opportunity. 6 Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned, as it were, with salt, so that you may know how you should respond to each person."
1 Tim. 3:7, "And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he may not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil."
There have been times in the Christian church where those who have claimed to follow Christ have done horrible things. They have done these things not because Christ teaches them to, but because they have not listened to the word of God. As is frequently established in history when anyone comes into complete political and military control that abuse almost always follows. The Inquisition was a Roman Catholic invention intended to root out all sorts of "heresies." The Inquisition used torturous means to force confessions out of people. Thousands were killed mercilessly and unjustly. The Protestant Reformation distances itself from the Catholic Inquisition. However, it has its own sordid history and the witch trials we had here in America among some Puritans is an example. They allowed their paranoia and ignorance to overtake reason and scripture. As a result, many people were killed because they were accused of being witches -- and they weren't.
Again, this does not mean that Christianity is false anymore than the police force is false because one or two cops did bad things in the name of the law. Instead of looking at the two cops, the whole of the police force, its goals, other cops, and its history of sacrifice and protection must be examined as well. The same as Christianity. It has a great history of helping countless people, establishing orphanages, building shelters, helping famine ravaged countries, and seeking to aid the downtrodden.
If anyone wishes to condemn Christianity because of the failures of its members, then will they also look at its successes and approve of Christianity? It would only be fair to look at the whole of Christian history and more importantly at what the Bible actually teaches, in particular the New Testament, from which Christianity is derived.
Believe in Christianity because Jesus Christ claimed to be God in flesh, died for our sins, rose from the dead, and has given us the New Testament. Believe in Jesus because He performed miracles in front of eyewitnesses and He said that He was the way the truth in a life (John 14:6). Believe Christianity because of who Jesus is, not because of what some so called Christians did in error.

[Yakuza]

Oh and I'd just like to point out that in ALL organised religions, non-believers are looked down on or forcibly converted where possible so hoop-de-f*cking-doo for the idea that Islam is solely and completely condescending. If you're going to criticise something look at the bloody equivalents first, will you?


Hmmm, I guess you could say that Jesus "looked down" at the non-believers, but then again you kind of have to when nailed to a cross. And jeez its not like he even forgave them for doing it either.

[Yakuza]

If you guys would understand how alike Islam and Christianity are. We belive in the same god, they belive in Jesus etc.

yet its the differences however small they appear will seperate Islam and Christianity. Because we believe Jesus is in fact GOD, so we really dont believe in the same God.

[Tr0n]

yet its the differences however small they appear will seperate Islam and Christianity. Because we believe Jesus is in fact GOD, so we really dont believe in the same God.Wait....wtf?I thought he had most of the powers GOD could do.But that didn't make him the creator/god.I'm confused.....

[Yakuza]

Wait....wtf?I thought he had most of the powers GOD could do.But that didn't make him the creator/god.I'm confused.....

note the New Testament scripture refers to Jesus and the Old Testament to GOD or Yahweh

Creator:

GOD, "YAHWEH"

Job 33:4, "The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life."
Isaiah 40:28, "Do you not know? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary, and his understanding no one can fathom."

JESUS

John 1:3, "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."
Col. 1:16-17, "For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."

The "I am"

John 8:24, "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." (NKJV)
John 8:58, "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" See Exodus 3:14
John 13:19, "I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am He." Exodus 3:14, "God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’"

Isaiah 43:10, "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."
See also Deut. 32:39


Judge

2 Tim. 4:1, "In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge..."
2 Cor. 5:10, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad."
Joel 3:12, "Let the nations be roused; let them advance into the Valley of Jehoshaphat, for there I will sit to judge all the nations on every side."
Rom. 14:10, "You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat."

[Eejit]

He's talking about the holy trinity.

[Gunner]

He's talking about the holy trinity.

You mean the Matrix trilogy?

[Cybernoid]

So, because it was a long time ago, they're supposed to forgive us and move along?

The Soviet Union invaded my country during WW2, and I'm not upset over it. Most of the veterans aren't, either.

Also:the flag-waving dickheads in here should really stop eating the spoonfed propaganda bullshit and wake up.

[Yakuza]

He's talking about the holy trinity.

Well I didn't mention the holy spirit, but yes all three are one, and there is only one God.

[Goombatommy]

Okay, here's my two cents. I find muslims to be peaceful people. I am an American citizen, born and raised in Brooklyn. I am sick of people badmouthing this country because we do things such as gamble, drink, etc. etc., or because people think that we are selfish, spoiled and do not care about other people in other countries. Your absolutely full of shit. You have to take a look on the flipside on America. We provide jobs, a decent living, freedom to do what you want and say what you want and believe in what you want. You have the right to vote, no questions asked. And yes we do have our "bad people" (i.e serial killers, rapists, etc.) but what country doesn't?

I too am becoming sick of hearing people boasting they hate all of America. Those who hate America, blame those who are attacking, not it's civilians. I for one do actually, think to myself from time to time and sympathize for those who are loosing family members, and for those who are having bombs dropped and losing everything. It's not just us Americans who think so close mindly about everyone else, but its also everyone else who thinks so damn close mindly about Americans. You take our negatives and use it against us like a f*$#ing weapon. EVERYONE has their negatives and positives. And to judge a country so harshly on our negatives, thats totally wrong on your behalf.

However, I do have a gripe or two about our country, and that is I am kinda getting upset about our country playing the role of a "Polce officer" for the world. Countries have their own problems, let them deal. They are human beings just like everyone else. We should leave our damn noses out of there problems, agreed.

I think that America is far from perfect. Disregarding what has happened in the past, viewing solely on current society, that doesn't give people the right to straightforward badmouth and oppose America. You don't see me, or others bad mouthing the whole religion of Islam and the middle-east just becuase terrorists live there. Although there are a few, but again, they are the close minded fools who believe's cats would jump off a bridge into a river and swim to shore. My point is, we are all human. Each country has it's own laws, regulations, and should not be judged solely by it's reputation or it's flaws that it h