Just a design: M-9H rifle.

[ductonius]

This is the M-9H assault rifle.

7mm x 30 composite cased carteridge
50rnd helix magazine
40mm grenade launcher
An all plastic body and simplistic gas system.
1x illuminated reticle

The top view is the rifle with all the openings and compartment open; hinged service pannel, front storage, magazine detached, oil can.

The bottom view is the rilfe combat ready.

http://www.xenoworks.com/images/screenshot/M_9Hrifle.jpg

[SidewinderX]

most uncomfortable forward grip. ever.


and the "pistol" grip looks uncomfortbale... neat though.

[IchI]

Hmm.... its kinda original. But not exactly a good concept its self. It don't really matter if its practical or not because its a mod at the end of the day. But the whole shape of the weapon just turns into pritty much a rectangle. Kinda boring really.

Its well detailed though and is done well. It just needs a better concept to back it up.

[ductonius]

most uncomfortable forward grip. ever.


and the "pistol" grip looks uncomfortbale... neat though.

Could you please go more into detail? I would like to know the reasons behind your assessment.



It don't really matter if its practical or not because its a mod at the end of the day.

Its not for a mod but another project Im currently working on that has nothing to do with HL2.

[crabcakes66]

the curv on that handle looks like it would get uncomfortable after a while...especialy for someone with large hands.

does the stock extend out.? becuase i have fairly long arms and there is no way i could fire that thing without breaking my neck.


the frontal grip doesnt look right either.

[ductonius]

does the stock extend out.? becuase i have fairly long arms and there is no way i could fire that thing without breaking my neck.

the frontal grip doesnt look right either.


Could you please explain. Why exactally would it be bad for your neck and what would you recomend for the front grip.

Just for informations sake, I based the front grip off the grip for the M203 grenade launcher. Apparently that wasnt such a good idea.

[nw909]

I can't tell how I would hold that curved handle, it just looks messed for some reason...

[crabcakes66]

I would be able to explain better if you gave me something as a referance for size.

As is, everything seems to close togeher. The trigger needs to be a bit more forward.

The front grip needs to be farther up front .


As far as adding a stock goes. When i try to imagine myself holding that gun it seems like my right arm has to bend to much.

here is a pic of an m16/m203

You will notice how far apart the end of the butt and the front grip are from the trigger.

[ductonius]

I would be able to explain better if you gave me something as a referance for size.

http://www.xenoworks.com/images/screenshot/M_9Hrifle2.jpg

750mm = 75cm = ~2.5ft
350mm = 35cm = ~14inches.


As is, everything seems to close togeher. The trigger needs to be a bit more forward.

The front grip needs to be farther up front .

Changed and changed. After reviewing images of the M16 and others the front grip and trigger both seemed to be too far back.


As far as adding a stock goes. When i try to imagine myself holding that gun it seems like my right arm has to bend to much.

As for the M-16. The version with a collapable stock has a buttstock length of between 10" and 14" (From ~25-35 cm). The stock length to the back of the handle on the M-9H is 35cm, so I would expect the stock to be similar in length to the M16.

I think the problem with size is the fact that the rear grip is not meant to be a pistol grip but something closer to a bolt-action rifle grip. It is larger and thus makes the rest of the gun look smaller. In addition, it is tapered in a few spost but those things dont show up on drafted drawings so the grip appears thicker and larger than it really would be.


Anyway, as you can see, Ive changed the grip to give it a little more frontal area to grab onto as well as moving the forward grip up.

[falconwind]

On the up side, it's better than a lot of imagnary guns out there. Looks like a cross between a P-90 and the 9Weapon from Ghost in the Shell. You've got definate potential as an artist for those Sci-Fi RPGs out there.
Let's put it this way, no where do I see the outline of a Mauser pistol or a Tommy gun, and that is always a good thing.

[SnowBall]

Unless you have a rubber neck, you wont be able to look through that scope. The scope should be in front of the trigger.

[falconwind]

I saw this design and instantly saw the potential. You're fairly competent at designing guns, but there are small mistakes that hinder the design. Keep in mind these things, body geometry, and ergonomics. Do this and you will be 90% sure that your gun is a believable and sound design. Try to think about it in terms of real-life combat and soldiers. When in doubt, look at other similar guns for advice. I used the Enfield L85A1 and the FN P90 as references.
First, was the design of the grip, but you changed it, which is good. I made it slightly more ergonomic, and rounded off the edge at the bottom (so that is doesn't snag the soldier's clothing or gear) (I cut out the grip shape in cardboard, to test it, it works fine.) I also extended the corner to butt-up against the magazine, I did this because it seems to me that a soldier in the heat of battle might miss while reloading, and the magazine would slide into the space for the thumb. Now this acts as a guide.
Second, is the position of the trigger in relation to the grip. If you contort your hand to fit the grip, you can see that this is not a comfortable way to pull the trigger. I moved it forward, but Ideally, the trigger should be even more forward, but space limitations prevented that.
The position of the scope was too far back, most shooters do not simply tilt their head sideways, they lean forward. Also, the scope should be at eye level when the shooter rests his cheek on the stock. I admit I had some problems coming up with a position that is comfortable for the shooter, but doesn't interfer with your nice opening panel. I was troubled by the absolute lack of any sights, though if the scope is integral, it can be forgiven. However, IMO, this restricts the versatility and reliability of the gun. (if the scope gets broken your screwed). The scope mount doubles as a rear sight, and is large enough to mount larger, more powerful scopes.
I changed the butt plate so that the shooter has it slightly higher than the center of his shoulder, like the L95A1.
I hadn't a clue how one loads grenades into the launcher. Since it's basically a M203, I added the loading feature. and moved the grip closer to the grip, as is most comfortable with bullpup designs.
Also, I realized that when upside down, the grip can be used at a carrying handle.

-------------------------------

My modifications to the M-9H (M-9HA1)

1) Added scope mount/rear sight
1a) Replaced scope with larger version in a higher position.
2) Added front sight
3) Shortened front grip and moved closer to trigger.
4) Added front grip slide to facilitate loading of grenade.
5) Moved trigger forward of grip and replaced trigger mechanism.
6) Modified butt plate for a raised position on shoulder.
7) Slight modifications to the grip.


So there you go, new and improved. Before and after shots. :sniper:

http://www.geocities.com/falconwind00/M_9Hrifle2.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/falconwind00/M_9Hrifle2mod.jpg

So they aren't showing... well, look at the attachment.

[falconwind]

Ahaha, bite my tongue. I just read your post about the M-16 fire selector in the anime gordon thread. So you DO know your firearms. :P

Sorry, man, hope I didn't offend you. :cheers:

[FictiousWill]

Great gun, those mods were mostly what I thought when I saw the first pic. You folks obviously know what you're doing!

I like to see common design traditions bent, like the P-90 style irregular grip. Function over form, etc etc. I'm inspired to design a weapon now too.

[ductonius]

Do this and you will be 90% sure that your gun is a believable and sound design. Try to think about it in terms of real-life combat and soldiers.

I try to think about it exactally in that way.


When in doubt, look at other similar guns for advice. I used the Enfield L85A1 and the FN P90 as references.

The two major influences on this guns were the helix magazine made by the now defunct Calico arms and the P90 fror the rear grip styling.



First, was the design of the grip, but you changed it, which is good. I made it slightly more ergonomic, and rounded off the edge at the bottom (so that is doesn't snag the soldier's clothing or gear)

I like the rounding of the grip, very good point about the snaging. I think I will be incorporating that into the "official" design.



(I cut out the grip shape in cardboard, to test it, it works fine.)

I've never though of doing this, but I will start!


I also extended the corner to butt-up against the magazine, I did this because it seems to me that a soldier in the heat of battle might miss while reloading, and the magazine would slide into the space for the thumb. Now this acts as a guide.


The problem with this is that the magazine cannot be pulled straight out.

In one way or another it has to be angled out and having the rear gip all the way to the edge of the mag would interfere with that.

It may be less ideal compared to what is normally expierenced with a box mag, but then again, it carries 50 rounds, so it only needs to be changed half as often.


Second, is the position of the trigger in relation to the grip. If you contort your hand to fit the grip, you can see that this is not a comfortable way to pull the trigger. I moved it forward, but Ideally, the trigger should be even more forward, but space limitations prevented that.

The trigger on my drawing is approximatly as far forward as it would be on an M-15 or SA80. Its really a matter of how straight you want the riflemans finger to be when it is on the trigger.

Ill try out your cardboard modeling technique though and see if its more comfortable with the trigger farther forward. It very-well may need to be.


The position of the scope was too far back, most shooters do not simply tilt their head sideways, they lean forward. Also, the scope should be at eye level when the shooter rests his cheek on the stock. I admit I had some problems coming up with a position that is comfortable for the shooter, but doesn't interfer with your nice opening panel. I was troubled by the absolute lack of any sights, though if the scope is integral, it can be forgiven. However, IMO, this restricts the versatility and reliability of the gun. (if the scope gets broken your screwed). The scope mount doubles as a rear sight, and is large enough to mount larger, more powerful scopes.

I have already addressed the scope placement/height issue with some modifications that I havent posted yet.

I didnt want to post once for every little modification.

Ill look into adding iron-sights for the next version.


I hadn't a clue how one loads grenades into the launcher. Since it's basically a M203, I added the loading feature.

They are dropped in from the front like a GP-25. The large button is to unload the 'nade launcher without firing the grenade.


nd moved the grip closer to the grip, as is most comfortable with bullpup designs.

ARRRGGGGHHHHH!!! First its forward, forward! now its BACK BACK!!!!

*head a-splode*


Also, I realized that when upside down, the grip can be used at a carrying handle.

:)



Sorry, man, hope I didn't offend you. :cheers:

Not in the slightest. I welcome all the feedback I can get, expecially from poeple to seem to know what they're talking about.

Ill be making some more changes before posting an update again. Watch this space!

[falconwind]

Of course, the Calico gun was in 9mm, both the submachine gun and the rifle versions, so I'd imagine the helix magazine is much larger. About the magazine being inserted at an angle, I didn't realize.

[Brazooka]

Unless you have a rubber neck, you wont be able to look through that scope. The scope should be in front of the trigger.
yeah I agree, the scope is out of place...

[ductonius]

Of course, the Calico gun was in 9mm, both the submachine gun and the rifle versions, so I'd imagine the helix magazine is much larger. About the magazine being inserted at an angle, I didn't realize.

When I post next Ill put up a pic of the ammo. Its completly different than normal rifle ammo and only slightly longer than a 9mm round.

[crabcakes66]

Looking alot better. Nice work.

[ductonius]

Revisions!

http://www.xenoworks.com/images/screenshot/M_9Hrifle3.jpg

Major Modifications:

1. Scope increased in size, moved forward, increased in hieght.
2. Front iron-sight added.
3. Trigger moved forward.
4. Rear handle redesigned to make it more comfortable.

Minor modificaitons:

1. Flash suppressor fins decreased in lengh to accomadate bayonet.
2. Front grip moved back and down slightly (2.5mm).
3. Grenade unloading button moved back.
4. Direction arrows added to magazine and cover latches.
5. Edges rounded off here and there.
6. Detail added here an there.
7. Scope mount changed.

FIX BAYONETS!

http://www.xenoworks.com/images/screenshot/M_9rifle3bayonet.jpg

Not even the most advanced rifle in the world can replace the venerable bayonet.



Advanced Rifle, Advanced Ammo.

http://www.xenoworks.com/images/screenshot/7x30mm.JPG

The 7x30mm round.

casing diameter: 9mm
Bullet: 7mm FMJ
Casing: Injection molded composite.
Propellant: High explosives with booster. RDX, PETN or similar.
Primer: Fulminate.
Cap: Combustable composite.

[FictiousWill]

I'm not familiar with the details of bullet design, but is the bullet supposed to be so far into the casing? I can see how a perfectly cylindrical bullet is easy to push about mechanically inside the gun, but when fired, won't it have to scrape it's way out of about 5 times the length of casing a normal bullet would?

I'd widen the bullet casing after the part that keeps the bullet wedged in, so when fired, it doesn't scrape as much. Just by a milimeter ought to do more than enough. I don't know what I'm talking about, though - It's all fantastic. Could the trigger be more foreward? I know you've tried to move it foreward, but it's still too far back methinks. maybe elongate the gun by an inch in the middle? Fabulous stuff, nonetheless.

[Sprafa]

I'm not familiar with the details of bullet design, but is the bullet supposed to be so far into the casing? I can see how a perfectly cylindrical bullet is easy to push about mechanically inside the gun, but when fired, won't it have to scrape it's way out of about 5 times the length of casing a normal bullet would?

I'd widen the bullet casing after the part that keeps the bullet wedged in, so when fired, it doesn't scrape as much. Just by a milimeter ought to do more than enough. I don't know what I'm talking about, though - It's all fantastic. Could the trigger be more foreward? I know you've tried to move it foreward, but it's still too far back methinks. maybe elongate the gun by an inch in the middle? Fabulous stuff, nonetheless.

it's caseless ammunition (i think). there is no casing kase the bullet is simply surrounded with explosive material. it's the future of ammo, used by H&K in soem prototype (G90 or G60, don't recall exactly.)

[FictiousWill]

Ductonius, have you stared to model it yet? If not could I have a go?

[ductonius]

I'm not familiar with the details of bullet design, but is the bullet supposed to be so far into the casing?

In normal bullets, no, its not supposed to go that far in, but there are many advantages to doing so.


I can see how a perfectly cylindrical bullet is easy to push about mechanically inside the gun, but when fired, won't it have to scrape it's way out of about 5 times the length of casing a normal bullet would?

The advantage with having perfectly cylindrical round is that there is a great deal of flexability in how they can be used. Just as an example, magazines designs end up simpler and more straightforward with a cylindrical round.

Since the bullet is harder than the composite material of the casing the bullet wont be damaged by going past it. In fact, since its not mechanically clamped to the case (like they are in normal rounds) the bullet here would end up smoother and less damaged than a normal bullet.

Ductonius, have you stared to model it yet? If not could I have a go?

Be my guest. Let me do a quick front profile though. Private message me with your email address and I can give you some high quality drawings. The ones here are less than half the size of what they start out as.

it's caseless ammunition (i think). there is no casing kase the bullet is simply surrounded with explosive material. it's the future of ammo, used by H&K in soem prototype (G90 or G60, don't recall exactly.)

It's not caseless but you'd be forgiven for thinking it is. There are a couple of reasons I didnt go with caselsess ammo for this gun.

#1. Heat. Brass cases help cool the chamber of a gun by carrying some heat away with them when they are ejected. The composite cases here dont pass heat to the chamber and also insulate the next round from the heat of the last. This is imporant since the explosives used create higher temperatures than normal black powder, smokeless powder or gun-cotton.

#2. Durability. Damage to caseless ammo will alter the power of a round. With this ammo the case can be damaged without the characteristics of the round being altered in any way.

[falconwind]

it's caseless ammunition (i think). there is no casing kase the bullet is simply surrounded with explosive material. it's the future of ammo, used by H&K in soem prototype (G90 or G60, don't recall exactly.)

It's technically not caseless, because, well, it has a case. But it seems to be the same idea.

The rifle you are thinking about is the H&K G11, and very cool gun, and apparently exceptionally good.

http://www.kitsune.addr.com/Firearms/Auto-Rifles/HK_G11.gif

[Brazooka]

Revisions!

http://www.xenoworks.com/images/screenshot/M_9Hrifle3.jpg

Major Modifications:

1. Scope increased in size, moved forward, increased in hieght.
2. Front iron-sight added.
3. Trigger moved forward.
4. Rear handle redesigned to make it more comfortable.

Minor modificaitons:

1. Flash suppressor fins decreased in lengh to accomadate bayonet.
2. Front grip moved back and down slightly (2.5mm).
3. Grenade unloading button moved back.
4. Direction arrows added to magazine and cover latches.
5. Edges rounded off here and there.
6. Detail added here an there.
7. Scope mount changed.

FIX BAYONETS!

http://www.xenoworks.com/images/screenshot/M_9rifle3bayonet.jpg

Not even the most advanced rifle in the world can replace the venerable bayonet.



Advanced Rifle, Advanced Ammo.

http://www.xenoworks.com/images/screenshot/7x30mm.JPG

The 7x30mm round.

casing diameter: 9mm
Bullet: 7mm FMJ
Casing: Injection molded composite.
Propellant: High explosives with booster. RDX, PETN or similar.
Primer: Fulminate.
Cap: Combustable composite.

It's a fine gun you are creating, I just think that the scope should be in the same line of the handle, like in the H&K G11 pic... but it's a very good work...

[FictiousWill]

Did you really need to quote that massive chunk to say that?

[Brazooka]

Did you really need to quote that massive chunk to say that?

Ops, my bad. Sorry!

[falconwind]

Ductonius, the revisions are great. I'd still play around with the position of the scope, but otherwise, it rocks.

There's something nagging me about a horizontal bayonet, but I can't think of a reason why not off the top of my head. It's probably fine.

It's been a while since I've used AutoCAD, but I'm beginning to think I should take it up again, if only to put my weapon designs on computer.

[FictiousWill]

I've done a 1st draft 3d version, found here:
http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?p=401996#post401996

Please post any suggestions about the design of the weapon in this thread, because the design is completely Ductonius's and I don't want to steal any credit for that, or change the design without going through him. Modeling and criticism on the model geometry-wise is greatly appreciated in the above thread, however.

[falconwind]

If anyone is interested, here's the Ghost in the Shell weapon I thought it resemebled slightly.

ZASTABA NOSLE CZN-M22 '9WEAPON'

http://section9.8m.com/guns/9weapon.jpg

http://www.ghostopsmod.com/images/final_renders/smg_9weapon.jpg

The CZN-M22 is the premier weapon of Section 9. It fires the 5.7mm x28mm SS190 cartridge, the same round used in the FN Herstal P90. It is manufactured by ZCZw (Zavodi Crvena Zastava), located in Kragujevac, in the country of Serbia. The CZN-M22 also can be modified, in the field, with a B-kit. With the modifications in this 'B-kit', the '9 Weapon' can accept hypervelocity 'hot' loads without malfunction (although the weapon will overheat under the stresses of sustained fire; see the end of the movie for an example) and can be fitted with a single shot grenade launcher (not seen in the movie, as the Major opts to throw the grenades instead).

CARTRIDGE: 5.7x28mm SS190

OPERATION: Blowback, fires from a closed bolt

TYPE OF FIRE: Selective

RATE OF FIRE: 800rpm Cyclic

SAFETY: Selector/Safety Switch; Internal Drop Safety

SIGHTS: Adjustable, open iron

FEED: 35 round removable box magazine

OVERALL LENGTH: @65cm*

WEIGHT (EMPTY): 2.6kgs*

WEIGHT (LOADED): 3kgs w/ 35 rounds*

[Moto-x_Pat]

I made a revision to your original design too. I went all special forces on it, and put a silencer, sling, iron sight rail, trigger, and selector switch.

[Flyingdebris]

actually having a horizontal bayonet might cause a problem. While a soldier carrying a horizontal bayonet would have no problems making stabbing actions, trying to slice would be a pain in the ass. Since the gun's bayonet is horizontal that means that the only slicing motions you'd be able to make would be left and right slicing motions. and would only have his thumb or 4 fingers applying pressure on the gun's front end at any time in a slice. Also due to the nature of your arms would be a lot weaker than up and down slicing motions which a normal vertical bayonet can provide.

since the gun is held from the bottom, applying pressure to move the gun left or right while stabbing will be ackward, while if the bayonet was vertical, it would take advantage of the overall shape of the gun and its handles to the fullest effect allowing for greater pressure applied in cutting. Also your whole hand would always be applying pressure to the gun's front in a slice, which is usually upwards



to see what i mean try to knock over something heavy with just your arms in a sideways motion

now try to do the same with up and down arm motion.

in sideways motion with your arms you relay mainly on your elbows where as up and down involves more muslces especially in your shoulders where most people are fairly strong.

and lastly swinging sideways means that you can no longer fire in the windup, while stabbing with a verticle bayonet means that your target is still technically shootable if you change your mind about stabbing.


so i recommend that you flip that bayonet vertical and still keep it out of the way of the bullets and nades

[ductonius]

actually having a horizontal bayonet might cause a problem. While a soldier carrying a horizontal bayonet would have no problems making stabbing actions, trying to slice would be a pain in the ass.

Someone on another forum already pointed this out, so I revised it to sit vertically beside the barrel. Its just one little revision so I didnt bother posting it.

Thank you in any case.

[Flyingdebris]

no prob, just helping wherever i cans

[Sulkdodds]

I like it a lot. The handle looks pretty uncomfortable but it would probably be okay in use. Other than that,. I haven't got anything that hasn't been said. Well done.

[Wakefield]

There's something nagging me about a horizontal bayonet, but I can't think of a reason why not off the top of my head. It's probably fine.

It's been a while since I've used AutoCAD, but I'm beginning to think I should take it up again, if only to put my weapon designs on computer.

You don't usually want a horizontal bayonnet because when you're in close-quarters combat, you can grab the pistol grip with one hand, the barrel with the other, and slash down. Kinda hard to slash down (ie: vertical) when the bayonnet is mounted horizontally. :)

Speaking of AutoCAD, I used to rock using that program. In fact, I still have the SummaSketch II with AutoCAD template and much prefer it when doing 3D design work. The precision kicks Hammer's ass. Now, any chance of importing DXF into Hammer? That would be perfect!

[Sui]

Ductonius and falconwind... you REALLY, REALLY know a lot about guns. i'm very impressed :D I love the design, looks very high tech. I would love to see more of your designs :D

[solid snail]

nice i really like the gun and i really liked it in ghost in the shell, in fact i really liked ghost in the shell :sniper:

[Sulkdodds]

Has anyone noticed how old this thread is? Look, I posted in May! I was the last poster until this Wakefield guy came along!

[solid snail]

ok whatever shutup sulk

[Sui]

Has anyone noticed how old this thread is? Look, I posted in May! I was the last poster until this Wakefield guy came along!

ROFL! wondered how it got so many pages in such a short amount of time...

[simon]

doing some searching after the exact name for this weapon i found this thread...
so i thought i'd post it here since the weapon is to everyones liking you'll be glad to know we just finished it for our mod www.off-limits.be :p

http://www.off-limits.be/gfx/thumbs/pres-rogues-9weapon.jpg

Hope you like it!

[JNightshade]

:O

Very very cool, but... this is a 2 year old thread. Better luck next time :p

[simon]

i know it's 2 years old, better late then never i suppose :p
besides, is this weapon in any mod so far? i don't think so, thats why i posted it :)