Valve Vs. Id Software?

[Lucifer Crass]

Well, we all know that both companies are on the front lines to make the best FPS, pretty much............Ever made. Now both companies are rich, both have the best talent and experiance making games.

Now, who do you like more? I wish they would get together myself :)
They would make the best company every made. It would be called....Valid!

.............opinions?
:thumbs:

[Stigmata]

Valve. Not because I'm a fanboy, but because id just seems over-publicised, and it looks like they're easy to buy into (a la the new "nVidia is good!" thing with id). Valve seems more professional.

[Prince of China]

Id.
Valve has only been known for the Half-Life series.
id software has been notorious for Quake, Doom, Wolfenstein and has more liscencing deals. Especially by Raven Soft. & Activision.

[Shinobi]

that's a hard one,,

in my personal opinion I like valve more because they have pledged support to the independant mod/game developers, but they are both great companies, engines and games.

[Bad^Hat]

For some reason ID and John Carmack remind me a lot of M$ and Bill respectively =/

Both good, have to go with Valve though... cause I'm a fanboy ^.^

[Lucifer Crass]

Valve. Not because I'm a fanboy, but because id just seems over-publicised, and it looks like they're easy to buy into (a la the new "nVidia is good!" thing with id). Valve seems more professional.

Good point. So you're saying Id is basically a sellout to the highest bidder at the time. While valve is consistent.

[Letters]

Uhhhhhhh... yes?

[Pauly]

thats tough....ID is good, and nice and cool, and valve is cool, but they do have problem keeping community informed thou

[Bad^Hat]

Uhhhhhhh... yes?

What's with the reply?

What's with the sig?

What's with the avatar?

What the hell is with you!?!?

/me drops a grand piano on Letters, and when he pops his head out his teeth are keys like in Looney Toons, and I play the victory tune from FF7 on them.

[Lucifer Crass]

I cant stand it anymore!! Who is that HOT BABE as ur Avatar Letters?!

[Prince of China]

Britney Spears.

[Letters]

I cant stand it anymore!! Who is that HOT BABE as ur Avatar Letters?!
Ummmm... my fiance? :D

(Actually it's Britney Spears... only BETTER! :eek:)

[Lucifer Crass]

Omg, I didnt even realize!!

/me fap fap fap fap fap fap fap fap!!

[Bad^Hat]

only BETTER! :eek:

Haha, I just noticed that IFG in the top left.

Anyone seen the video for 'Toxic'? That brief shower scene at one stage... Britney looks 10x hotter with black hair =/

[Letters]

Ooooh, I'll have to download it! :D

[Chris_D]

I prefer Valve.

Valve are more concerned in creating the technology for their own games that will contain a deep and meaningful gameplay.

ID seem more concerned about creating a game with amazing technology with little gameplay in the hope to make money off of the back of that by selling the engine.

[Lucifer Crass]

Haha, I just noticed that IFG in the top left.

Anyone seen the video for 'Toxic'? That brief shower scene at one stage... Britney looks 10x hotter with black hair =/
YOU ARE CORRECT SIR!

[Stigmata]

I prefer Valve.

Valve are more concerned in creating the technology for their own games that will contain a deep and meaningful gameplay.

ID seem more concerned about creating a game with amazing technology with little gameplay in the hope to make money off of the back of that by selling the engine.Yeah, it also seems like Doom3 is a showcase game, designed to have just enough depth to be considered a good FPS while being used mainly (edit: entirely ;))to sell engine licenses.

[Asus]

I prefer Valve.

Valve are more concerned in creating the technology for their own games that will contain a deep and meaningful gameplay.

ID seem more concerned about creating a game with amazing technology with little gameplay in the hope to make money off of the back of that by selling the engine.

I feel this way too.

While I like ID, it isn't because of the game they made is so fun but rather that they are just good at developing engines.

I like valve, not because of their developement of engines but rather because the of the quality of game they created.

I play games not engines so I like valve better.

[Pseudonym_]

id, simply because they come off much more professional. They just have more class. When Gabe buys a few ferraris and starts building his own space shuttle, maybe he can compete with Carmack. Besides that, they invented and re-invinted the FPS as we know it today. Our hobby exists because of them, and they have been pushing graphics technology to new levels since the conception of the FPS. Valve made a great game, but it doesn't stack up to id's legacy. Not in any way.

One thing I would like to say is this theory that id is bought by nvidia is nonsense. just because source doesn't work well on nvidia cards doesn't mean squat about Doom³. id has always been honest and upfront with the community, and if you go back and read Carmack's plan files even back to the beginning of Doom³ devlopment, you will see that nvivia is consistantly ahead of ATI where Doom³ is concerned. You can't say that since hl2 sucks on nvidia, that must mean that if id says Doom³ runs great on it then they must have been payed off. Thats a ignorant assumption. They are two very different games, and Carmack is considered the best in the industry at getting high end graphics engines to work well with all GPUs.


Given that Doom³ runs great on nvidia, and that Doom³ is more demanding than hl2, I would say that the reason hl2 sucks on nvidia is due to poor engineering on behalf of Valve. Carmack made it work, but I guess thats why he is considered the best.

[Styloid]

Um... I like Valve because I like the way they make games.

[Asus]

One thing I would like to say is this theory that id is bought by nvidia is nonsense.
I agree. Although FX did suck at parts of D3. ;)
But it is isolated to the FX. It's called shaders.

Given that Doom³ runs great on nvidia, and that Doom³ is more demanding than hl2, I would say that the reason hl2 sucks on nvidia is due to poor engineering on behalf of Valve.
More likely because D3 uses a lot of CPU power unlike HL2 which uses a lot of GFX shader power. ;)

Since nvidia's NV40 has much needed and improved shader power from the FX, it will run D3 very good. Even D3 has shaders that need good performance, Mr Carmack has even commented on that.

[crabcakes66]

gabe seems like a cool guy...

carmack seems like a whiny prick.

[Mr-Fusion]

gabe seems like a cool guy...

carmack seems like a whiny prick.
I agree. I'd much rather be friends with Gabe than Carmack. Gabe looks like he could tell some good jokes and they become 10 times funnier because he's a jolly fatman. Much like Chris Farley (God bless his soul)

As for which company i prefer. The amount of hours i've spent playing CS and DoD is probably enough reason to like Valve more. Id's multiplayer and single player games never really captured my attention like the Half-Life experience did. The wow factor from new graphics lasts only so long into a game. Id seem to rely more on that initial "wow" factor. Once it wears off you find the game is very shallow. That judgment is based of their more recent work Quake1/2/3, RTCW.

[cadaver]

id :thumbs:

[cadaver]

id, simply because they come off much more professional. They just have more class. When Gabe buys a few ferraris and starts building his own space shuttle, maybe he can compete with Carmack. Besides that, they invented and re-invinted the FPS as we know it today. Our hobby exists because of them, and they have been pushing graphics technology to new levels since the conception of the FPS. Valve made a great game, but it doesn't stack up to id's legacy. Not in any way.

One thing I would like to say is this theory that id is bought by nvidia is nonsense. just because source doesn't work well on nvidia cards doesn't mean squat about Doom³. id has always been honest and upfront with the community, and if you go back and read Carmack's plan files even back to the beginning of Doom³ devlopment, you will see that nvivia is consistantly ahead of ATI where Doom³ is concerned. You can't say that since hl2 sucks on nvidia, that must mean that if id says Doom³ runs great on it then they must have been payed off. Thats a ignorant assumption. They are two very different games, and Carmack is considered the best in the industry at getting high end graphics engines to work well with all GPUs.


Given that Doom³ runs great on nvidia, and that Doom³ is more demanding than hl2, I would say that the reason hl2 sucks on nvidia is due to poor engineering on behalf of Valve. Carmack made it work, but I guess thats why he is considered the best.

fully agree with that

[Xenome]

I respect Id software for the work they have done, they have build up the Fps genre. -- so i wont say anything bad about them

I do think that valve has took over, or is taking over. So i'll go with valve.

[Wolf]

'Given that Doom³ runs great on nvidia, and that Doom³ is more demanding than hl2, I would say that the reason hl2 sucks on nvidia is due to poor engineering on behalf of Valve. Carmack made it work, but I guess thats why he is considered the best.'

ROFL that's the stupidest most uninformed things I've heard in a while... WD :p

The reason D3 runs well on Nvidia hardware is because it is through-put bound like a DX-7 class title rather than shader bound like a DX9 class title. The FX is a VERY capable card in all games that don't require full precision shaders - and anyone who tells you different is either lying or making a big stink about AA performance or image quality...

Carmack has freely admitted that D3 doesn't make use of PS2.0 shaders - and that the lower precision int12 and FP16 that the FX has to run (if you want decent FPS) isn't a problem in his game.... D3 is next gen, but it is advanced in terms of the renderer lighting engine not its shaders ala Source - which apparently uses 200+ PS2.0 shaders...

The Doom3 engine is OpenGL not DirectX where Nvidia has a native advantage over ATI anyway and Carmack had to code a special optimised path (not ARB2) in order to get proper performance and use the FX's lower precision shaders to full effect. That you think HL2 a DX9 shader bound title runs Nvidia slower because of poor programming shows how little you know about the 3D world...

Let me start your re-education for you:
www.beyond3d.com

[crabcakes66]

dont argue with the fanboys wolf.....

[Mr.Magnetichead]

Valve = One Good game.

iD = Invented the genre and has made ever major break through in FPSers.


Winner = iD

[Mr.Magnetichead]

Valve. Not because I'm a fanboy, but because id just seems over-publicised, and it looks like they're easy to buy into (a la the new "nVidia is good!" thing with id). Valve seems more professional.


iD DESERVE to be overpublished. Then invented they've made every major breakthrough in FPSers to date and pretty much single handidly created the genre.


Errr maybe you didn;t notice but Valve are suckeling at ATI's cock. Why else do you think the current ATI cards are bundled with a hl2 voucher?


More professional? Like leaking beta codes of their games? Missing release dates? Passing the buck on CZ over and over again?

Yeah REAL professional. :laugh:

[jonbob]

Valve = One Good game.

Which was built on the engine that id made...

Anyway, I'd have to say id, who have been responsible for quite a few of the best games ever (indirectly responsible for some, through licensing). Not that I'd want to badmouth Gabe - especially here - but he seems to lack the eccentric uber-coding monkey Godness that Carmack shows at times. id can make very good games, and they have been doing so since the genre was first created; so far Valve have only made one good game (though I personally can't see what all the fuss over HL1 was about).

But Valve have better writers. Having said that, no-one can frighten you quite as well as id can.

[Sorze]

I guess people define professionality differently.

Valve is professional in the sense that they will work longer on a game if they think it's needed. Would you rather they released crap?

Id is fecking professional in the engine department, and has done alot for the fps genre (and graphics development for everything). But I'm not sure what revolutionizing fps they've made except for wolfenstein and doom.?


I'd prefer not to choose actually :)
But HL2 is so far the only game out of the two (HL2 D3) that I know I'll buy..

[PvtRyan]

Yeah great idea, another my daddy vs your daddy thread!
It's all a matter of opinion, arguing about that is pointless

I prefer Valve, id games are nice, but it's mostly the technology that is special, not the game.
Valve may have only made one game, but it's considered the best FPS ever, and that's a game that they made while there company was still being created, with limited resources and a team who only had a few persons that had previous experiences with game developing. Just imagine what they can come up with now with a lot more money, a lot bigger team, and the experience they gained from HL!

[Mr.Magnetichead]

But I'm not sure what revolutionizing fps they've made except for wolfenstein and doom.?



You see there was this game called quake that was the first ever totally 3d FPSer.... :rolleyes:

[thenerdguy]

ID,
Ill pick ID every time. Id made the fps standard. PLus Almost every games from ID works in linux. :) I cant say that for valve. Yes HL1 was fun but it used a modded quake 2 engine. So ID is the king. :)

[Wolf]

And after Q1? Are you going to tell me you think Q2 and Q3 contributed anything whatsoever to the single player FPS genre? RtcW?

I'm sorry but I have had a better time playing Duke3d, Half Life, NOLF1+2, Deus Ex, than the sum total of every id game ever made...

Without the CTF mod, Q2 is one of the worst FPSs I've ever had the misfortune of purchasing.

Id just doesn't have any design credentials to speak of - all their eggs are in the technology basket. Carmack doesn't even play games anymore and he seems to think anything outside a simple arcade paradigm is a false gimmick... Hell only knows what will happen to id when he retires - it might actually do them some good and allow them to actually innovate outside technology....

Look - full respect for them setting the FPS genre alight in the first place and contributing all that amazing engine technology to drive IHV and PC gaming in to the future - but in terms of their actual games - nostalgia doesn't cut it for me.

[Farrowlesparrow]

More professional? Like leaking beta codes of their games? Missing release dates? Passing the buck on CZ over and over again?

Yeah REAL professional. :laugh:


Um...You know if you hadn't mentioned CZ, you could be talking about either one.

[ComradeBadger]

id. Invented the FPS genre, re-invented the FPS genre, kings of multiplayer for a huge amount of time, pioneers of widespread online gaming. First games to be modded. Quake III engine is STILL being used.

Valve. One great game, truly awe insipiring, supported and grew the mod community. Built their game on the QuakeWorld engine.

id for me, although HL2 + TF2 could well change my mind. Valve just don't have the track record imo

[Mr.Magnetichead]

Um...You know if you hadn't mentioned CZ, you could be talking about either one.

No not really.

iD have never missed a release date because they've never set one 'When it's done'.

CZ has been passed from developer to developer and it's still just a bot and skin pack for CS as it is.

[Top Secret]

iD have never missed a release date because they've never set one 'When it's done'.

Errr, I thought they said Doom 3 was going to be out in 2002.

As for the John Carmack vs. Gabe Newell thing. I don't know Gabe where-as I kind of know about John Carmack. He used to be some poor kid who joined a group of guys at a small programing company and making games in their spare time. They broke off, and formed id. You know where they got the computers for their first games? They used to take them out of the building, and put them in the trunk of their cars at night, then they would drive to their rented house on the river and program games. It was in that company that Carmack was the first person EVER to port Mario to the PC. (Actually, I think it was a Mac) He optomized it so it would work, since no one else could do it at the time.

I'm going to pick John Carmack of Id, simply because I know more about him.

[cadaver]

Id just doesn't have any design credentials to speak of - all their eggs are in the technology basket. Carmack doesn't even play games anymore and he seems to think anything outside a simple arcade paradigm is a false gimmick...



well carmack has very little to do with the actual game content of doom3, he have payed people who love gaming to do that part :farmer:

[thenerdguy]

HE only built the game engine.

[Mr.Magnetichead]

Errr, I thought they said Doom 3 was going to be out in 2002.




2002? Lol wtf. It was only unveiled at E3 2002.

[Maskirovka]

personally, i think all of id's games are merely "fun for a while" games. sure, the technology behind the games has always been very good...and many other games have licensed the quake engines.

half-life was a 2348320x better game than the dooms, quakes, or RTCW...incredibly better story and much more fun gameplay, imo. but as far as multiplayer goes, HL and the iD games are pretty much on the same level (except maybe RTCW, which uses a gametype made popular by CS and team fortress (original for quake) )

the built-in deathmatch and stuff for HL and id games are both fun, but they get tiring after a while...it's the mods that are the most exciting and fun to play...and i think HL2 will blow doom3 away in that regard...especially since most of valve's success is owed to modding (CS, DOD, NS). and also realizing the fact that doom3's multiplayer will be pretty lame (4 person max...carmack said he expects 8-person mods :\\\ )

doom3 will be a "ok that was fun" game with a touch of "i hope someone makes a cool game with this great engine"...and hl2 will be another mod-happy funtime extravaganza of 5-year game fun playness just like hl1

[Mr.Magnetichead]

HL did not have a good story line.

It was a generic B-movie esque storyline.

It was however executed very well.

[Maskirovka]

HL did not have a good story line.

It was a generic B-movie esque storyline.

It was however executed very well.

that's your opinion, fine...but it's automatically better than any of the doom/quake storylines...because those weren't even B-movie...those were "what if you had to kill 239048239482738 things" storylines that my 10 year old brother could've come up with....

and sorry, but "get the keycard to advance" doesnt' make for a good game...ever. it was fine for doom, and maybe until Q2...but that's why QIII was a botmatch/multiplayer only thing...id couldn't come up with good gameplay.

even RTCW was the same deal...nothing really innovative...but the fighting scenarios were mostly well thought out...

can you play through half-life and not remember the first time you got owned by the assassins? or the first time you encountered grunts and they threw nades to flush you out of your cover? or crawling through a vent and having a machine gun shoot you out of there? sorry but none of id's games have ever had a memorable moment for me...except maybe the final doom2 boss...or fighting those jumping demon things in quake 1.

[harrys]

id software because :

id Track Record : Wolfenstein 3D, DOOM , DOOMII , Quake, QuakeII , Quake3, RTCW, RTCW-ET

Valve Track Record : Half-Life

[marksmanHL2 :)]

Heh, yeah ID have done more that valve but Valve have done more than just HL....

I can't be arsed to list a few... so whatever!

[Maskirovka]

like i said...who cares about the engine...i want a fun, memorable game...id has never provided that...except with multiplayer....on occasion.

[Warbie]

How dare you say RTCW was not innovative!

It still remains the best teambased shooter about - requiring far more tactics, skill and practise than any other game (imo of course), CS/BF/U2 do not compare. While a mess on publics, it's the ultimate clan game - introducing clearly defined and balanced classes (a rare thing), needles to pick up fallen team mates (possibly the coolest thing to ever hit online gaming - and soon to be copied by everyone [U2 anyone?]), being able to dish out med/ammo packs, bino strikes, artillery strikes - all of which add greatly to the gameplay.

After 2 years of great tournies and cups RTCW is on it's last legs. ET is ok, but will never be a replacement. ET = RTCW with training wheels and very poor maps :/

Take it back! :) ....... or i'll moan and moan till this thread is ruined.

[Anthraxxx]

My vote goes to Valve.

Id is a close second though!! :thumbs:

[Maskirovka]

warbie, if you read my post more carefully, you'd have realized that was referring mostly to the single player aspects of these games...like in my 2nd post

id has never provided that...except with multiplayer....on occasion.

so i'm not attacking your precious RTCW multiplayer...just id's ability to produce anything other than engines and tweaked gameplay of mod gametypes (RTCW multi is just a tweak of other games that came before it). id just isn't very original when it comes to gameplay....i guess the only exception is RTCW...and that's not much of a track record...even though you guys seem to love pointing out id's vast track record of games...

i just disagree with your opinion what that record says about the company.

[Warbie]

I was just skimming through the posts, and then you shoot me down by being reasonable. Bloody logic - where's the fun in that ? :)

To get back on topic, i'd have to go with Valve - although i'm quite concerned about HL2s single player element.

What stood out in HL (for me anyway) was the immersion. Your goal was so simple, just try to survive and escape ......... and this is where it's strength lies (a strengh that Doom also shares). Everyone can relate to that. The story, while adequate (in an X-files kinda way) really wasn't that important.

Most of the game you were on your own and left to your own devices, you against the world. Yet, unlike in most games, it was believable (well, kinda :) ) The opening sequence set the secene so convincingly, you were just a scientist going to work - not a uber hard marine or cyborg etc etc. For the first time I felt an affinity with the game character.

The addons, imo, were very poor in comparison. Adding more AI controlled allies reduced the sense of solitude and tension. No loner were you an average joe, relying on the most basic of instincts, you were a soldier/policeman. The immersion now relied on the previous game and the story - and as a result didn't really stand out from the crowd.

HL2 could easily continue this trend ......... technically fantastic, great gameplay, pretty good story, but not containing the element that made HL so great. However, HL2 is still trying to offer someting new and innovative - and for that reason it's hard to go with ID on this one.

[Maskirovka]

yep...seems like doom3 will be doom1+2 with sweet graphics....which, while nice, isn't exactly going to provide the most immersive and exciting storyline/gameplay...but who knows...maybe it will be really really cool...guess we'll just have to wait :P

[BirdMan]

Doom 3 will not be Doom 1+2 with sweet graphics.

Doom 3 is gonna be Doom 3 with the best immersion, best graph of all time and well written story line and a load of horror.

Back to the topic,

my vote goes to ID. Just cause i prefer the style of ID's game, more than any other game out there. Don't get me wrong, i love HL, but after reading every single articles on DOOM 3; ID knows how to make good games, they know what people like, and NO doom 3 won't be a "shoot everything that moves game". It will be like HL, survival game, but with DOOM's gory and horror style.

[Warbie]

^ could be. Doom 3 may be the scariest survival game yet. Who cares if the story is a bag of shite ......... when fighting demons from Hell do we need anything else? :)

[Anthraxxx]

^ could be. Doom 3 may be the scariest survival game yet. Who cares if the story is a bag of shite ......... when fighting demons from Hell do we need anything else? :)
Yes. We would need a whole boat load of bullets and even more rockets...

[MultiVaC]

iD has a track record of engines, not games. I mean, Wolf3D sucked, Doom and Doom2 (was there really much difference?) sucked, Quake sucked, Quake 2 sucked, Quake 3 sucked, RTCW had awesome MP but SP sucked (zombies + WW2 = retarded). iD advance technology, not games. If Doom hadn't advanced technology I would've considered it a bag of crap. Plus, I utterly loathe John Carmack's philosophy on games. So yeah, Valve. And why isn't this a poll?

[Styloid]

I guess I just never got into Id myself. At Quake 1 I was playing Duke3d, Quake 2 was HL1, Quake 3 was Unreal Tournament (and HL1). They just seem kind of... bland.

[Maskirovka]

lol...zombies + WWII does = retarded....i was gonna say that but i forgot.

the game was cool until the zombies came....just like Far Cry will probably be cool until the zombies come...just like hl2 was cool until you went to Xen....just like S.T.A.L.K.E.R will be cool until zombies come (if they do...but there are mutant animals at least...i just hope they keep it human-oriented with no giant fag things)

adding zombies to a game just means "we can't write decent human AI...so we have to design weird beasts and give human-type things incredibly fast aim to cover up that fact"