Zero Punctuation - Webcomics

[Cormeh]

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/108-Webcomics

Watching now, etc.

[CyberPitz]

i lol'd

[Viperidae]

Taking CAD and Dueling Analogs down a peg (or five billion).

[Sliver]

Pretty good. Mostly because CAD is pure unfiltered shit.

[Vegeta897]

That was good.

Like it says in the video the hypocrisy is gigantic :p
I bet he could tear himself apart.

"lol i can spit out decent writing at a very fast pace to make it seem more witty" etc.

[Bob_Marley]

Most amusing.

[Operational]

Got a good laugh out of me.

[Dalamari]

I laughed at the bit where he took the piss out of CAD, especially the picture associated with it

[Cpt Tenacious]

HELL YEAH, he ****ing owned that dumb ass shit over at CAD.

[Vegeta897]

That really wasn't the point of the video.

Way to just join in on the drama, lol.

[Corp. Sheepo]

Was pretty lol

[Gray Fox]

I don't get it? Where did he attack CAD.
Also I never liked PA, I do like Perry Bible fellowship, cynide, and VGcats.

[Direwolf]

The whole miscarriage thing was from CAD.

[sea]

Ctrl+Alt+Del has always sort of been two comics in one, one a fairly serious comic about gamers, and the other a usually funny commentary on games and game culture. I'm not sure why he's attacking it because I don't really read it as a gaming comic most of the time anyway. It's more a comic that just happens to have games in it. It's hardly the best thing out there, though.

Even though the video itself is funny, it's nothing I haven't heard a million times before. Stick to reviewing games, Yahtzee.

[Adrik_Senturu]

He's attacking it because its pretty much the worst gaming comic.

[dekstar]

I lol'd. I read CAD but agree that I could be reading much better things.

[Que-Ever]

I was just thinking the other day that ZP should review things other than videogames. This makes me think that he does and I've just never seen it.

[Krynn72]

You assholes and your acronyms. If it weren't for Sea, I would have no idea what the **** CAD meant. I was lost for half this thread.

[Rizzo]

You assholes and your acronyms. If it weren't for Sea, I would have no idea what the **** CAD meant. I was lost for half this thread.

This^^

Also, damn hypocrit. At least he admited it thou. But still.

[Asuka]

Never was a part of the Webcomic community so i didnt really find any of it funny.

[Corp. Sheepo]

I rather like CAD actually. It's unfunny a lot, but I enjoy it. Valid points all around though.

[mastag]

Speaking of CAD, why exactly is the main character guy pissed at that robot?

[Vegeta897]

The robot unintentionally said something really inappropriate regarding the miscarriage.

There was no actual comic detailing that exact event happening, it was just mentioned.

[mastag]

The robot unintentionally said something really inappropriate regarding the miscarriage.

So we're just supposed to fill in the blanks regarding what was said?

edit: oh.

[Corp. Sheepo]

I think it's supposed to be implied that the robot said something very crude about the baby, I don't think it's ever actually shown.

Edit: Damn, this post is now obselete.

[Bad^Hat]

Miscarriage? In a gaming strip?

Oh CAD, if only you had any notches left to go down.

[Jintor]

That was awesome.

CAD sucks.

8^D

[Vegeta897]

You're doing it wrong.

[Jintor]

Like you don't.

[Bad^Hat]

So I checked out the latest CAD stuff. Yeah, eww.

But hey, at least he hasn't compromised any of his trademark wit.

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x111/bad_hat/20080630.jpg

[KineticAesthetic]

HAHA!

Wait.

[BHC]

I don't think I ever found CAD funny but this new shit is just ridiculous, Yahtzee is right. I'd watch daytime network television if I wanted to follow horribly written soap opera. Ugh, I can't believe I just read through those. What would be interesting to hear about is if his real life girlfriend had a miscarriage and this was his way of coping. Even so, it just seems so forced down our throats. Blah...

[Bad^Hat]

I read the news post accompanying the comic because I was curious about that as well, seems like a weird direction to take a comic like CAD on a whim. Apparently his girlfriend in a past relationship had a miscarriage. Idunno, I guess that makes it "okay", obviously it's a horrible thing for him to have gone through, but it's still just... you know... wtf.

He also said he has a plan for the comic years in advance, ie - he knew whatserface would marry Ethan when he first introduced her, and he knew the baby would miscarry before they got pregnant. So, you know. At least he knows what he's doing.

[Blackthorn]

I read CAD a couple years back on and off, seemed decent, but I've just read all this new miscarriage bulls*** and it's so damn awkward. This had all better pay off for one hell of a punchline.

And it'd be nice to see Yahtzee do more of this kind of thing, since it's his humour I watch them for, not the reviews.

[Cormeh]

Funny video, but I'd have preferred another retrospective game review or some such.

I've read an article Yahtzee wrote before regarding CAD, in which he claims disdain for the comic and yes, even it's creator. (I'll paste it in or something).

He's got a point though, if one comic has mild success it spawns needless copy cats that are just plain shit. The few webcomics I've enjoyed have been Concerned (but of course); C&H and XKCD.


23/3/08: You Cad

Review this week was Turok, for anyone who didn't notice. Watch it and let's all get on with our lives.

As a recent interview with me over at Gamespot and several references in previous reviews and writings may have informed you, I have a long-standing hatred of the webcomic Ctrl-Alt-Del. I thought I'd take a moment to explain it a bit better.

You see, I have this theory that the internet is causing a general mediocritisation of human culture, because you can put pretty much any piece of work on the internet and no matter how hugely it sucks dolphin jizz you'll find some dick who's prepared to tell you it's brilliant. This is the principle on which Deviantart appears to be founded.

But the cruellest thing you can do to an artist is tell them their work is flawless when it isn't. It gives them no incentive to improve or try new things, which a creative person must always strive to do. And it tends to foster the kind of monstrous egos the webcomic sphere grows like mushrooms in the shit-spattered dark. Tim Buckley of Ctrl-Alt-Del is notorious for having a zero tolerance for any criticism, constructive or otherwise, often deleting it unregarded from his forums, or declaring them invalid for half-baked reasons. It seems blanket praise has already done its damage to this fevered ego.

I don't hate Buckley. I look at CAD and I see a lot of misdirected potential. I know, that sounds hilarious even to me. But if you look at Buckley's art blog, you'll find that he's actually a pretty decent artist when he wants to be. But the promise of easy praise and popularity keeps him mired in his copy-pasted shoulder-hunched droopy-eyed slack-jawed magnum opus.

Not that copy-pasted art need necessarily ruin a comic - Dinosaur Comics is one of my favourite regular reads. It's the fact that for having run a gag-a-day strip for however many years, Buckley still has no idea how to structure a joke. I've never known an artist so determined to never learn anything about their craft. His usual response to this sort of thing is that he just has his own style and that there's no such thing as a 'right' or 'wrong' opinion, but the fact is, while humour is a flexible harlot, it still has rules. Rules which can be broken in the right contexts; contexts which don't include anything Tim Buckley has written.

I'm going to post a link now to a Ctrl-Alt-Del comic from July 2007. Don't let the fact that it's old excuse the mistakes; this is still very typical of Buckley's current work.

http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/comic.php?d=20070718

Here's another comic, this one a Penny Arcade strip from early the same year. The subject matter and joke are the same (Puzzle Quest) but it's a fairly obvious joke to make and I can easily assume both writers came up with it independently.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/03/28

Both comics identify the humour in the situation - that the rules of a game world seem absurd when applied to the real world - but while Penny Arcade understands that the crux of a joke should be reserved for the final panel, Ctrl-Alt-Del is apparently so excited about the idea that it blurts it out right away, leaving three more panels to flounder in excessive dialogue and pointlessness.

A punchline should be equated to an actual punch in the face. That's why it's called a punch-line. You deliver it and run. You do not hang around explaining how you did the punch and that the recipient should probably be in a lot of pain now.

Identify the funny part of the idea and save it for last. Leave with the audience laughing. If you do nothing else, finish strong. That's a rule any humourist will agree with. But with the centrepoint of the gag already uselessly spent, Buckley's comic is forced to fall upon its old standby of violence as a sort of prosthetic punchline. Now, violence can certainly be funny, modern cinema was virtually built on the tradition of slapstick, but it doesn't work in static, non-animated media. There is humour to be found in shock value, but most people have been on the internet long enough to not be shocked by anything as mundane as a claymore through the sweetbreads.

But even if the joke were structured properly, there is still far too much dialogue. This is a problem common to a lot of webcomics, but since we're already in the CAD-bashing groove we'll stick with it. Shakespeare wrote that 'brevity is the soul of wit'. He did not then add 'unless you're writing a webcomic'. It applies to everything, and don't tell me you're arrogant enough to claim to know better than Shakespeare.

A gag strip has a very simple formula. Buildup. Buildup. Buildup. Punchline. Anything that does not in some way build towards the punchline can safely be removed. If any dialogue can conceivably be replaced with a gesture or facial expression (visit Perry Bible Fellowship for a crash course in this), do so; this is a comic, a predominantly visual medium, not a ****ing essay. Additionally, any dialogue pertaining to either ninjas, pirates, monkeys or Jesus should be excised, sealed in resin and buried in an undersea volcano.

This is why Ctrl-Alt-Del is a blight, and the fact that it remains crushingly popular despite making mistakes that a child would be brutally caned for on their first day at comedy school is one of the main reasons I openly weep tears for the future of human culture.

I know that an opinion can't technically be wrong and that there could be people who still like CAD for the characters or the art, but if you genuinely think that it is well-written, then you are demonstrably wrong. That's all there is to it.

Yahtzee is well aware that his own previous webcomic efforts aren't necessarily any better but reminds you that they came out of a dark time in his life from which he has determinedly moved on without a backward glance
Pretty recent, after he slated Turok.

[Blackthorn]

Just read the news story on CAD regarding the miscarriage plot.

If a baby was introduced to the strip, Ctrl+Alt+Del would not suddenly convert into a parenting comic strip, with changing diapers every other strip, etc. This is a comic, and I don't need to show every mundane detail of these characters' lives.
LOLIRONY

[Jintor]

Is that some "BAWWWW I DO THINGS MY WAY" excuses I see thar?

[Gray Fox]

So I checked out the latest CAD stuff. Yeah, eww.

But hey, at least he hasn't compromised any of his trademark wit.

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x111/bad_hat/20080630.jpg

TBH that's funnier then most things on PA

[Jintor]

Yeah, if you're stupid.

Seriously though, Penny-Arcade's Alone in the Dark comic was far funnier, methinks.

http://penny-arcade.com/images/2008/20080623.jpg

[Gray Fox]

It's funny how Yahtzee mentioned comics should use as little text as possible, well it's funny in relation to your example.

[Kyorisu]

TBH that's funnier then most things on PA

I hope you're not being serious, there is nothing remotely funny about that CAD. PA isn't so great either but at least it's actually funny at times.

[Pulse]

Good ole' Yahtzee, right as always.

[Beerdude26]

Yeah, if you're stupid.

Seriously though, Penny-Arcade's Alone in the Dark comic was far funnier, methinks.

http://penny-arcade.com/images/2008/20080623.jpgHeh, got a chuckle out of me :)

[Zephos]

I adore Penny Arcade.

Ctrl-Alt-Del I used to read, until I bored of it as it began to feel like like an unfunny sitcom (I should have completed it with a laughter track).

[Jintor]

It's funny how Yahtzee mentioned comics should use as little text as possible, well it's funny in relation to your example.

It's not a hard and fast rule. It's variable. Ask yourself - which was funnier?

The CAD one would have been funnier with just the first and last panels, which I understand is a common hobby on forums...

[sea]

Penny Arcade is amazing, but it's all about knowing the characters and the people behind it. A lot of the jokes are funny because you know all their personality quirks, both in-comic and out-of-comic. Sometimes they're so funny simply because Tycho is such a brilliant writer; simple things like selection of mundane words or use of punctuation become an art form in his hands. There's surprisingly few jokes to be got by the uninitiated, though, so I'm not surprised when I hear that lots of people don't like it. I'll admit that they have their stinkers, too (the current story arc does little for me), but a good Penny Arcade comic has me laughing by the first panel, whether because of some hilariously hideous character design, some ridiculous scenario (Tycho's "belts" in the comic on the previous page), and sometimes for no discernible reason at all.

Also, because it is relevant:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2008/20080613.jpg

[Jintor]

I see your point, Sea. Didn't think about it like that.

[Malfunction]

Yahtzee, right as always.

Not only is PA much funnier, but the artwork is exponentially better than CAD. Leagues beyond it.

[Corp. Sheepo]

Is this gonna turn out be a webcomic argument like the one in the lounge?

[Gray Fox]

It's not a hard and fast rule. It's variable. Ask yourself - which was funnier?

The CAD one would have been funnier with just the first and last panels, which I understand is a common hobby on forums...

I liked the CAD more. I usually don't think about why something is funny,
it's all regulated at an emotional level.

But if I had to explain why. It would come down to the build up and impact of the clue.
The PA comic reveals it in the first panel and I can guess instantly what is to come after that.
It would have been better had they been arguing about a game called Alone in the Dark,
and it was revealed at the end that one of them thinks about something very different when
Alone in the Dark comes to mind.

CAD handles it better by associating the situation in the comic at the end with the literal interpretation
of the name of the game. Without the 2 panels in between there would be no tension, so I like it more the way it is.
Though it is less original then what PA came up with.

But I don't think either of them is really funny.


Anyway, yahtezee breakthrough came with the review of Fable, which was brilliant because he managed to reiterate
the disappointment with the game without resorting to the very popular bullshit notion that linearity is inherently bad.
That took some guts, plus he went deeper and explained it by exactly pointing out the flaws with the gameplay, and the
superficial choices that the continuation of the story necessitates. While being incredibly funny in the process.

I can't make a definite statement about PA since I do not follow them regularly, but what I've seen of them is that they
usually take a very popular idea and draw it. And that's it, I have never seen anything that is particularly insightful,
clever, original or that provides a better perspective on matters. If there is a popular notion about some character being
emo or a game to colorful, PA will have a comic about it the next day, that will say the exact same thing in comic form.
I guess it works if you see them as an authority that justifies an opinion.

[Jintor]

I can't make a definite statement about PA since I do not follow them regularly, but what I've seen of them is that they usually take a very popular idea and draw it. And that's it, I have never seen anything that is particularly insightful, clever, original or that provides a better perspective on matters. If there is a popular notion about some character being emo or a game to colorful, PA will have a comic about it the next day, that will say the exact same thing in comic form. I guess it works if you see them as an authority that justifies an opinion.

Fair enough.

What's with the bloody formatting though?

[Gray Fox]

I format my text the way I do because it's easier for me to read it this way. I assumed
it would be the same for other people. If I do not format it then I can sometimes see a
whole paragraph in one long line running from the left of my 20" to the right and it's
really annoying to read. My eyes move easier from top to bottom then from the left to
right.

I also try to have my text in small digestible chunks, because that makes it easier
for me to read it. And easier to find something in the text should I need to review it.

But I have had 3 complaints about it by people, so...

[Operational]

^ It's fine with me. When someone posts a long reply I normally resize my browser window to make it easier to read

[Malfunction]

Gray Fox sounds like Tim Buckley LOL! :P I'm kidding, but it was funny, come on, you know it was. =]

[MiccyNarc]

I love CAD and I hate PA. :-\ The video wasn't about CAD but webcomics in general.

It just so happened that the miscarriage story arc got skewered. My sister reads CAD occasionally and it really hit home for her. I thought it was cringe worthy. Everyone's different.

[nurizeko]

Oooooooooooooooooooh sick burn on CAD.

Lulz.


I love CAD and I hate PA. :-\ The video wasn't about CAD but webcomics in general.

It just so happened that the miscarriage story arc got skewered. My sister reads CAD occasionally and it really hit home for her. I thought it was cringe worthy. Everyone's different.

It was about CAD. Your a noob, your sisters a noob, and CAD is for noobs.

[CyberPitz]

OK, why the **** is there some random advertisements at the end of the videos, now?

I guess I gotta start stopping the vid after the credits are done, and thinking, "OH GOODY, EXTRA CONTETN!!!"

[Corp. Sheepo]

Yea, that's been bothering me.

[CyberPitz]

Well, let me say something on topic.

Those that are saying, "OMG THEY WERE BASHING *insert comic here*!!! THEY ARE WRONG!" are just playing into exactly what he was saying.

The ONLY comic he mentioned was Penny Arcade. Don't like that comic, HOLY SHIT, CONGRATS TO YOU! Please, don't mention it in your post. We don't care what you like tbh.

The video made me laugh, as there are numerous comics I've read that follow that guideline.

[Absinthe]

Ahhh... "brevity". What a wonderful word, and oh how CAD so desperately needs it.

I actually used to read CAD really frequently until I began to realize I was practically forcing myself to like it. It's Buckley's comic and he can do what he wants with it. But most of the jokes are predictable and marred by excessive speech bubbles. But to be fair(ish), and as was rightly pointed out in the video, this shit comprises 90% of gaming web comics.

PA is blessed with both great artwork and a skilled wordsmith. It may require some investment to fully "get" a lot of their comics. But I always appreciate the characters, and they always hit just the right level of absurdity, be it either in the premise or the dialogue. But go back to their very early comics and you'll see they suffered from a lot of the same faults Yahtzee described. The difference is that they've matured (if that's the appropriate word to use) over the years, whereas most others seem stuck in a rut with the humor of a 16 year old.

[Jintor]

Cyberpitz - those ads have always been there, it's cos of theescapist, you know? He even put a joke about the ads in his vid.

Their traffic tripled after he was hired, so yeah.

Abs got it right about PA, btw.

[saratos]

Occasionally, Penny Arcade is funny. I mean, really witty and funny. At other times... it can get a bit lame. But no miscarriages. Also, can an IGN Insider PLEASE transcribe this IGN interview I see with Yatzee? It is cruel.. Cruel that they would make us pay for this.

[Bad^Hat]

You know why Penny Arcade kicks the ass of more or less every other gaming comic out there? It didn't develop a plot.

Drama is the f***ing cancer of gamer comics, no exceptions.

[Absinthe]

Indeed. Their "dreaded continuity" comes out in quick bursts and is largely self-contained. I swear I recall reading CAD plotlines that stretched on for weeks. Or at least that's what it felt like.

[Jintor]

And they're actually genuinely funny! The Turkey Trilogy or Armedeadon were some of the funniest series of PA strips I've seen!

I'm not really liking this Cross the Line thing they've got going, but the latest comic is wordless bloody hilarity.

[Septih]

I like it, partly because I [used to] play table tennis :P

[Direwolf]

I just like the set-up comic at the beginning because its spot-on for the opening of half the sequels in the 80s.

[mastag]

http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/comics/20080704.jpg

lololololoool

Yeah, i'll be going back to Penny Arcade now.

[BHC]

I saw this on the gamespot forums and nearly crapped myself laughing, so I'm sharing it with you all:
http://www.fohguild.org/forums/attachments/screenshots/77072d1213980337-funny-strange-random-pics-slowmygod.jpg
ah it appears many of these tasteless beauties originate from ED (http://encyclopediadramatica.com/B%5EU)

[Bob_Marley]

Oh lordy, I lol'd

[Bad^Hat]

Not nearly tasteless enough.

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x111/bad_hat/474px-Cad_edit.jpg

[Absinthe]

These edits suddenly make CAD awesome.

[Adrik_Senturu]

yips make everything better

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a350/Darkjakk/1212389826675.jpg

[Malfunction]

yips make everything better

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a350/Darkjakk/1212389826675.jpg

HAHAHA! Winnar!

[mastag]

Sweet satan those are amazing.

[TollBooth Willie]

These are amazing.

[Que-Ever]

The CAD forums are back up after a few days of "downtime", it seems.

[Vegeta897]

The CAD forums are back up after a few days of "downtime", it seems.
Man what bullshit cad sucks balls lololol

[Jintor]

At some point in time, 4chan got fed up with the general shitfest that is Tim Buckley's recent comics, and instigated a simple rule to make his comic much more tolerable and lulz worthy. By the simple act of removing the second and third panels, and removing the text from the fourth panel, the comic is made much funnier (which, ironically enough, isn't hard to do since the comic has long since been devoid of anything amusing and filled with walls of text and storyline ******ry). Any redundant panel in CAD is generally referred to as a Buckleybox. A second variation to the CAD rule is replacing the fourth panel of the comic with the fourth panel of "It's a Zu out There" (original plox). Not as lulz worthy, but the edits are still vastly superior to the original comic.

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/b/b9/Cad_Poor_Bomberman.jpg

[nurizeko]

HAHAHA! Winnar!

Lmao that actually got me laughing so much, funniest CAD I've ever seen and it wasn't even made by Tim Buckley.

[Baal]

I liked CAD when I read it last summer while bored at my boring government job. It looks like either it got much, much worse, or I've had my eyes opened.

Maybe both.