Developer: Bioshock, Halo3 not "next gen" [Archive]

CptStern

10-10-2007, 06:58 PM

Frontier Developments boss David Braben believes BioShock and Halo 3 are not examples of "next-gen" games.

"I loved the 1930s-1950s atmosphere of BioShock: the lovely Art Deco visuals and the audio that worked especially well," Braben told us. "Overall the whole game was beautifully executed, but the gameplay itself was not 'next-gen'."

"I found Halo 3 great fun, too, but also a little disappointing - as although there were a few nice touches and improved graphical fidelity, it hadn't really moved on much from Halo 2 in terms of the gameplay.

besides the graphics I tend to agree ..the gameplay isnt any different than what we've seen in other games ..although to be fair I havent played either game and in my mind Bioshock looks like it adds something new to survival fps, dont know what, but I'm sure one of you will fill the blanks

no developer interview would be complete without the developer plugging his game while deriding it's competition:

"So to answer your question, if anything I am reassured; I think Outsider more than stands up to them, and I still think Outsider will be one of the first 'next-gen' games," he added.

The Outsider was announced back in 2005 as a game that would bring around the same sort of freedom as Braben's other famous creation, Elite. For him, a next-gen game means giving you the tools to change the outcome of a story much more dynamically than by choosing good or evil paths - something only the new consoles have the grunt to deliver.

The Outsider is a high-tech thriller that pops you in the shoes of an Elite CIA agent made public enemy number one at the outset of the game. From here your choice of how to proceed is up to you: turn the tables and exploit your former employers, bring about ultra-violent destruction with your Jack Bauer-like training, or crusade to clear your wrongly slurred name.

so what's the verdict on "next gen" games, next gen? yay or nay ..still havent played enough games on console but from what I've seen too many companies are sticking with with proven genres and just add a layer of paint to mask the same tired gameplay ..of course there's always exceptions to the rules

http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=85108

No Limit

10-10-2007, 07:03 PM

ricera10

10-10-2007, 07:03 PM

"So to answer your question, if anything I am reassured; I think Outsider more than stands up to them, and I still think Outsider will be one of the first 'next-gen' games," he added.

The Outsider was announced back in 2005 as a game that would bring around the same sort of freedom as Braben's other famous creation, Elite. For him, a next-gen game means giving you the tools to change the outcome of a story much more dynamically than by choosing good or evil paths - something only the new consoles have the grunt to deliver.

The Outsider is a high-tech thriller that pops you in the shoes of an Elite CIA agent made public enemy number one at the outset of the game. From here your choice of how to proceed is up to you: turn the tables and exploit your former employers, bring about ultra-violent destruction with your Jack Bauer-like training, or crusade to clear your wrongly slurred name.

So he's saying instead of just having good and evil as choices, just have two evil choices and one good choice?

What is an example of next-gen gameplay, though? Those two words don't make much sense put together in my head.

CptStern

10-10-2007, 07:05 PM

I think he's just using it as an excuse to pimp his game

"these games are not next gen because of so and so ..my game is next gen because it has things those other games dont have"

Tagaziel

10-10-2007, 07:23 PM

Next gen is an incredibly stupid term that doesn't apply anywhere outside console hardware.

Also, Bioshock is just a shooter. Nothing inventive, nothing new, except for a streamlined interface. Just a shooter.

Alig

10-10-2007, 07:42 PM

I think GTA4 will be a great example of a next gen game. The open enviroment and gameplay, the amazing graphics, and hopefully realistic physics.

I played a bit of Halo 3 and I really wasn't impressed. The water in this "high end" game doesn't even reflect. Bioshock was an awesome game but graphics wise it wasn't any more special than HL2 was, and that came out how long ago now, 3 years?

What? Either you are you blind or incredibly HL2 inclined. Bioshock looks absolutely stunning compared to HL2... Even on my 360 in HD it looks a lot better than HL2 does.

I only ever played the first Halo when the first Xbox came out and i hated it, and considering it's Halo that Halo 2 and 3 are trying to be 'as good as'... I don't need to play either to come to the conclusion that Halo 3 is whack. However, i have got Bioshock, and its a bloody good FPS. What the hell is next-gen gameplay?.. i do not know...

Lt. Drebin

10-10-2007, 07:47 PM

Lt. Drebin

10-10-2007, 07:52 PM

I think GTA4 will be a great example of a next gen game. The open enviroment and gameplay, the amazing graphics, and hopefully realistic physics.

I dunno. I have a feeling GTA4 is gonna be more of the same but +1. Hey, whatever works for them...

No Limit

10-10-2007, 07:55 PM

What? Either you are you blind or incredibly HL2 inclined. Bioshock looks absolutely stunning compared to HL2... Even on my 360 in HD it looks a lot better than HL2 does.

I'm sorry, I just don't see it. All these new games for consoles are about as graphically advanced as HL2 and Doom 3 were. I played the 360 version on a 42" LCD in 720p and I stand by my statement, the graphics looked good but they were on par with HL2, a game that was released 3 years ago:

http://www.unleashedcreativity.net/pics/mobo/coastline.jpg

http://www.britishgaming.co.uk/wp-content/screenshots/pc_bioshock/02.jpg

CR0M

10-10-2007, 07:59 PM

I thought 'next-gen' described a bunch of graphical advancements in software code that utilized hardware not yet created to run them properly. If it refers to gameplay too, then that would amount to... say... 5 games in the entire history of games evar.

Of course he's plugging his game, and arrogance is what sells these days - just look at the Oblivion self worship that went on long after that sandwich got stale.

Gotta admit tho that Braben is one of my gaming heroes, games like Elite and Virus are cornerstones in my gaming history.

Reginald

10-10-2007, 07:59 PM

I dunno. I have a feeling GTA4 is gonna be more of the same but +1. Hey, whatever works for them...

To me, GTA + more physics (i.e. ragdolls etc.) will be a truly next-gen game.

Anthraxxx

10-10-2007, 08:01 PM

So he's saying instead of just having good and evil as choices, just have two evil choices and one good choice?

What is an example of next-gen gameplay, though? Those two words don't make much sense put together in my head.
Nest-gen gameplay = Portal

Bad^Hat

10-10-2007, 08:35 PM

Okay, listen up, cause I'm only gonna say this once. And I hope I speak for more than just myself when I say...

SHUT THE F*CK UP ABOUT NEXT GEN. IT DOESN'T EXIST.

Atleast not anymore. Why? It's here already. This is the "next" generation of consoles! Jesus Christ, am I the only one who's noticed?

CptStern

10-10-2007, 08:40 PM

mmmmm ...Oblivion sandwich

if next gen is strictly limited to graphics (which I agree to an extent) it's a sorry state indeed ..I mean bioshock may look nice now but will look dated in 3 years and when more time has passed it may not even recieve a footnote in the annuls of gaming history ..graphics are relative to the time period ..I think the problem is that developers think mostly about instant gratification in terms of eye candy, but big budgets preclude investing a lot in gameplay because they only have so much of a buying window before gamers move on to the next big thing ..it's funny how games on the DS or simplistic games still resonate with gamers. Mostly because they're less of a risk so devs can try to shake up gameplay because they dont have a multi-million dollar budget and a publisher breathing down their necks ..I think it'll get worse as gamers demand better graphics and developers are forced to churn out eye candy with a few new features instead of trying to rewrite the rules ..anyways I'm babbling

Stigmata

10-10-2007, 08:50 PM

The only people being particularly innovative are Nintendo and Valve. This sucks.

Tagaziel

10-10-2007, 09:04 PM

We need a second great videogame crash. Now.

Cormeh

10-10-2007, 09:51 PM

I disagree with the guy to be honest. He doesn't exactly seem sure what he even means by "next-gen".

BioShock was not only a gorgeous game, it was deeper than a simple run and gun affair, used varying approaches to every situation (tactical plasmid? attacking plasmid? guns?).

Halo 3 is so damn easy to pick apart to be honest. Theatre and Forge mode are really where Halo 3 shines through, and no other console game that I know of does either (Obviously, correct me if I'm wrong). No one seems to even bother giving it a second look.

Anyway, before I derail this into some pointless bashing thread, I would ask what "outsider" does differently than any game out there.

What I perceive as next gen, as Stigmata said, are Nintendo and Valves approach and vision. Nintendo are going much more hands-on with their consoles (wii, ds) and Valve (having just finished Portal myself), are taking conventional gaming completely out of the box in terms of gameplay approach.

CptStern

10-10-2007, 09:58 PM

I think he says it gives you choice ..in the vague sort of way that developers seem to have pioneered

VictimOfScience

10-10-2007, 10:20 PM

Hmm, story elements = next gen?

I would argue that this sentiment is like 3 or 4 generations ago. Back in the heyday of Lucasfilm Games they ruled the roost with some of the best stories in gaming.

These developers are all sounding like idiots now. Carmack and this guy can go screw.

Baal

10-10-2007, 10:26 PM

The phrase next-gen really needs to be eliminated from gaming.

Warbie

10-10-2007, 10:46 PM

I'd prefer a return to the gen before last. For a decent story i'll read a book or watch a movie.

Alig

10-10-2007, 10:50 PM

I'm sorry, I just don't see it. All these new games for consoles are about as graphically advanced as HL2 and Doom 3 were. I played the 360 version on a 42" LCD in 720p and I stand by my statement, the graphics looked good but they were on par with HL2, a game that was released 3 years ago:

http://www.unleashedcreativity.net/pics/mobo/coastline.jpg

http://www.britishgaming.co.uk/wp-content/screenshots/pc_bioshock/02.jpg

Don't want to get into a bashing discussion because the proof is on page 1 of a google image search for both games... And also on the technology of the Source Engine compared to the new Unreal Engine.

-Psy-

10-10-2007, 11:02 PM

Enough of this next-gen bullshit. It's lost all meaning.

Samon

10-10-2007, 11:25 PM

'Next-gen' is stupid and flawed.

clarky003

10-10-2007, 11:30 PM

I agree, 'next gen' is a coined phrase that is often put forward for some kind of hype effect. But vaguely the meaning is supposed to associate with the next big step in technological developments, It really means nothing more, and is totally down to what you consider 'the next big step'.

On another note I just finished Halo 3 and the ending was complete tripe, otherwise it was a really good game.

AmishSlayer

10-10-2007, 11:45 PM

The term "next-gen" is just stupid. The need for every game to be groundbreaking is just silly to me.

Javert

10-10-2007, 11:52 PM

Warbie

11-10-2007, 12:28 AM

On another note I just finished Halo 3 and the ending was complete tripe, otherwise it was a really good game.

The ending continues after the credits. You also get a tiny bit more for finishing it on Legendary.

StardogChampion

11-10-2007, 03:15 AM

I agree, 'next gen' is a coined phrase that is often put forward for some kind of hype effect. But vaguely the meaning is supposed to associate with the next big step in technological developments, It really means nothing more.
Agreed. People often talk about "next-gen gameplay" but it doesn't exist. Next-gen is just about the next generation of consoles.

If Bioshock has next-gen gameplay, as some people say it does, then what they're basically saying is that the PS2/Dreamcast/GC etc wouldn't have the power to code the mechanics of the game (it's gameplay), which isn't true. It would easily run on the PS2 minus the visual enhancements such as physics and graphics which don't affect gameplay at all.

Bioshock is run-of-the-mill. I could probably recreate a scene from it in the D3 engine with barely any visual difference.

Nemesis6

11-10-2007, 03:47 AM

And in Doom 3 it wouldn't lag.

Stigmata

11-10-2007, 03:56 AM

"Next-gen gameplay" is yesterday's gameplay with tomorrow's graphics.

Nemesis6

11-10-2007, 03:58 AM

Kind of like the game Clive Barker's Jericho... Except its graphics are just like, a few hours before midnight; not quite tomorrow.

Wanted Bob

11-10-2007, 04:00 AM

The only people being particularly innovative are Nintendo and Valve. This sucks.

Personally, I think that Spore displayed TRUE innovation, a venture into unknown grounds of gaming (you know, before it got dumbed down...)

BHC

11-10-2007, 09:31 AM

'next-gen' is completely subjective.

For instance I believe boxer-briefs to be next gen, as they capitalize on the features I enjoy in both boxers (shorts-like coverage, warmth) and briefs (snug and comfortable). Eventually, everyone will catch on with this next-gen fad and we won't see anyone wearing exclusively boxers or briefs, only boxer-briefs.

Kschreck

11-10-2007, 09:35 AM

I checked out the company site:

http://www.frontier.co.uk/home.html

All they make is crap. What gives them the right to rip on the best selling games ever when they release crap not even good enough for the DS? :|

Krynn72

11-10-2007, 10:09 AM

For me, Next Gen simply means a game or piece of hardware made for the most current/upcoming technology. Which essentially means, everything is next gen because nobody would design something for last generations tech that nobody uses anymore.

Sparta

11-10-2007, 11:04 AM

I must disagree with Bioshock. The developer seems to place his "next-gen" standards on moral choices, but Bioshock is about much more than that.

I say the real "next-gen" games so far has been Oblivion and Bioshock.

Bioshock is cut and paste from System Shock 2.

I'm not joking either, its truly a clone of System Shock 2. I'm sure you've seen this already, but if you haven't it really does sum up Bioshock perfectly

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/editorials/zeropunctuation/1394-Zero-Punctuation-BioShock

No Limit

11-10-2007, 03:03 PM

Don't want to get into a bashing discussion because the proof is on page 1 of a google image search for both games... And also on the technology of the Source Engine compared to the new Unreal Engine.

Wow, everything is shiny :rolleyes:. Did it have slightly better graphics than HL2? Sure, obviously I can't dispute that, this game came out 3 years later. But half life 2 was truly a "next gen" game at the time, bioshock is still in the same generation with little improvement over HL2. To be fair though I have not played Bioshock on the PC so the PC version might look a lot better.

alehm

11-10-2007, 03:27 PM

Obviously "next gen" has some subjective parameters surrounding its meaning. I always looked at next-gen being something that set standards in that genre for all games to come.

For example, people will tell you Doom 1 and 2 and Quake 1 and 2 had a story but when Dark Forces II :Jedi Knight and Half Life came out it totally set a new standard on the "storyline" in games. Half Life set new standards in terms of connected levels for a seemless enviroment (no more get blue key to open blue door to load next level) and I also believe having to reload your weapons to highten the tension in combat among several other things that all combined really transformed the genre for all FPS's that came after it.

I think where gamig has been the past few years is essentially dressing up the existing cake of gaming with great frosting. If you pardon the crude analogy. And when we actually have a next gen game we will all know it.

L3adCannon

11-10-2007, 03:30 PM

Well if this is next gen, then it sucks balls. Past games have been more fun and full of innovatio, cool features n s*it you don`t find in todays games.

I don`t know how next-gen games will play like but Halo 3 and Bioshock are def not it.

I hope the mark when you can`t tell a difference between a screenshot and a photo will come soon, then they can focus on things like gameplay.

Warbie

11-10-2007, 03:48 PM

//double post :/

Warbie

11-10-2007, 03:48 PM

'next gen' arrived with the Wii. When your mum asks for a console for her birthday you know something quite wonderful has happened to gaming.

The term used to imply new ways to enjoy and play games. Something to keep them feeling fresh, to keep you on your toes and make your inner child smile. These days it tends to mean shaders and ragdolls (excuse me while I fall asleep!) - i'm looking at you, Crysis.

Remember the first game that had you hooked, how new and exciting it was - for me, 'next gen' is any video game that recreates that sensation.

Samon

11-10-2007, 03:53 PM

To coin something as having next-gen gameplay is to simply say you really don't have a clue how to make a game. The whole term is flawed and stupid in ways the industry needs to start understanding.

Warbie

11-10-2007, 04:05 PM

Raxxman

11-10-2007, 04:34 PM

Mario what?

just kidding :P

CptStern

11-10-2007, 04:45 PM

but will anyone remember Mario Cart wii (now with motorcycles) 5 years from now?

http://arstechnica.com/journals/thumbs.ars/2007/10/10/mario-kart-wii-gets-bikes-spring-2008-release-date

Warbie

11-10-2007, 04:51 PM

Such yesterdays news ;)

You're probably right, but, if it's as good as Mario Kart on the DS, it'll take them straight back - which is the next best thing. MK plays as well today as it ever did. It's like Bomberman - it can't get old.

Glo-Boy

11-10-2007, 05:09 PM

Well, nice to see a developer with his head screwed on tight. He's 100% correct...

To the mindless majority, all next-gen means is prettier. Nintendo is the only one really working to change that mentality...successful so far.

You know, I'm tired of this pretentious bullshit nintendo fans keep spitting out. I am a PS3 owner, but I will admit the faults. I still stand by the console, but I'm not being oblivious to the problems with it. Since it seems that no nintendo owners can fathom humbling themselves just a little bit, I'll go ahead and lay it out for you real quick.

The wii controllers really aren't so god damn genius or responsive. Notice how you can really flick your wrist in any direction and your character will do moves that don't correspond? Yeah, that's faking what is already a gimmick to begin with. It's like you morons crave shitty graphics because it makes you feel smart or something. Please point out one next-gen title on the wii because if you can find one, you'll practically be breaking the laws of physics. Because if a console with one processor can out-perform a console with eight, we're living in a backwards world.

Sorry, but Far Cry 2 is next gen, cap. Not Kojito's Bubble Gum Playhouse or Samurai Warriors Lotus Attack!

Unless of course, you mean next-gen not in terms of graphics, but more in terms of being able to choose between diagonal slash and sideways slash with an invisible sword.

I agree with this developer that HALO 3 and Bioshock aren't next gen, but to the guy who was talking about Crysis, yes it is. You can consider your wii to be part of the next generation - but remember that it's only because you now have a glorified nintendo zapper. Great, your controller evolved into a gimmick that's kind of fun for a minute. Just don't forget that advancements in both hardware and software mean next gen too.

CptStern

11-10-2007, 05:13 PM

far cry 2? how is it "next gen?" ..it's pc exclusive, there is no next gen ..if you mean next gen gameplay please explain how is it next gen.

alehm

11-10-2007, 05:35 PM

http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/12568/Gabe-Newell-PlayStation-3-Is-a-Total-Disaster/

"The PS3 is a total disaster on so many levels, I think It’s really clear that Sony lost track of what customers and what developers wanted," Newell told Game Informer magazine. "I’d say, even at this late date, they should just cancel it and do a ‘do over’. Just say, ‘This was a horrible disaster and we’re sorry and we’re going to stop selling this and stop trying to convince people to develop for it.’"

"I’m betting that by Christmas of next year, the Wii has a larger installed base than the 360. Other people think I’m crazy. I really like everything that Nintendo is doing."

I guess Gabe likes ugly graphics because it makes him feel smart? I wonder why they took software mode out of HL2 then?

Warbie

11-10-2007, 05:48 PM

You know, I'm tired of this pretentious bullshit nintendo fans keep spitting out ...

Since it seems that no nintendo owners can fathom humbling themselves just a little bit, I'll go ahead and lay it out for you real quick ...

It's like you morons crave shitty graphics because it makes you feel smart or something.

Dude, chill.

I own all 3 consoles and stand by what I said concerning the Wii. Nintendo consoles have always been home to fun, simple and addictive games, but now with the Wii (and DS) they feel new. I get excited playing Wii games in a way I don't with the pc or other consoles, it just feels new.

The wii controllers really aren't so god damn genius or responsive. Notice how you can really flick your wrist in any direction and your character will do moves that don't correspond? ...

Which game/s are you actually referring to here? You only have to look at some of the Duck Hunt high score vids on youtube to see how incredibly precise and responsive the Wiimote can be. Give Kororinpa a go, it controls beautifully.

Blaming a control method due to poor implementation is hardly constructive.

Great, your controller evolved into a gimmick that's kind of fun for a minute ...

Just like the DS? ;)

Far from gimmicks. I'm dangerously close to turning 30, as are most of my friends, yet Wii Bowling alone has kept us coming back since the consoles Christmas launch. It's accessible, intuitive, deceptively involved, and would have been nothing but painfully average with any other control method. Instead, it's simply awesome.

As much as I dislike the term 'next gen', how can this possibly not qualify? Not only does it recreate the sensation of bowling (far more so than that of playing a video game) particularly well, it also turns crap bowlers into bowling legends. We went actual bowling the other day and it wasn't half as fun.

And seriously, Far Cry 2? You'll be telling people they can't notice anything above 24 fps next ;)

CptStern

11-10-2007, 05:53 PM

I'm dangerously close to turning 30, as are most of my friends, yet Wii Bowling alone has kept us coming back since the consoles Christmas launch.

I think there's a corelation ;) ...next you'll take up shuffle board ..let me know when you're ready, I'm captain of our local chapter (inherited from the old captain who passed away from being really really old) ...oh and the next time you're at a games store and the pimply faced cashier says "would you like your video game gift-wrapped" just say yes, you'll avoid the uncomfortable stares

Alig

11-10-2007, 05:57 PM

Wasn't everything Next-Gen at some point?

HL set a standard for FPS long ago, and ever since nothing has been able to do anything that stands out compared (edit), not even HL2. The only way they can improve on what WE ALREADY HAVE HAD FOR YEARS is by making it look and play more realistic i.e. Next-Gen.

Can one of you give an example of what Next-Gen gameplay is. What exactly should you be able to do that hasn't already been done? Pick your nose? Put your finger up your arse? Commit suicide? Lick the walls?

It's as if what we have isn't enough, that some people want real-life on a computer screen... Well, turn around and look away from this screen, get up, and walk away.. Thats next-gen.

Warbie

11-10-2007, 05:58 PM

I think there's a corelation ;) ...next you'll take up shuffle board ..let me know when you're ready, I'm captain of our local chapter (inherited from the old captain who passed away from being really really old) ...oh and the next time you're at a games store and the pimply faced cashier says "would you like your video game gift-wrapped" just say yes, you'll avoid the uncomfortable stares

:laugh:

I'm game. You bring the soup.

Wii shuffle board isn't that bad an idea you know. You already see oaps playing Wii in retirement homes - it could be the begining of a whole new industry focus. Perhaps a Wii Supermarket game that involves slowly walking around, picking up bits of fruit and veg, examinging them for ages, giving them a squeeze, and them putting them back :)

CptStern

11-10-2007, 06:08 PM

Glo-Boy

11-10-2007, 06:38 PM

far cry 2? how is it "next gen?" ..it's pc exclusive, there is no next gen ..if you mean next gen gameplay please explain how is it next gen.

It is a video game that will employ new features such as wind and air fields, lift generation, procedural fire, 50 square km fully open to the player from the start with zero load times. Seems we're also seeing some primitive subsurface scattering and ambient occlusion. Also, unparalleled motion blur and depth of feild in game. The gameplay isn't improved upon drastically, but the technological advancements seem to lend a hand. Shoot someone in the stomach with a sniper rifle so the medics come to help him. Shoot them and so on and so forth. It's the same game snipers have been using forever. Things like this are not hard coded. But it happens because of every little other aspect that is. This breaks into the realm just a little bit for true procedural gameplay. And THAT is why this game is next gen.

Now, they could be bullshitting, since most anticipated games are usually not nearly as great as they seemed to be upon release, but it's okay to keep your fingers crossed.

Oh but wait, you can't point the gun with your wii controller so it is obviously behind the times. Next gen doesn't HAVE to be cross-platform. It's the next generation of technical, graphical, and gameplay oriented achievements.

Samon

11-10-2007, 06:45 PM

HL set a standard for FPS long ago, and ever since nothing has been able to do anything that stands out compared (edit), not even HL2.

HL2 and many other shooters have long since come along and eaten Half-life 1 whole.

Sir Phoenixx

11-10-2007, 06:48 PM

It is a video game that will employ new features such as wind and air fields, lift generation, procedural fire, 50 square km fully open to the player from the start with zero load times. Seems we're also seeing some primitive subsurface scattering and ambient occlusion. Also, unparalleled motion blur and depth of feild in game. The gameplay isn't improved upon drastically, but the technological advancements seem to lend a hand. Shoot someone in the stomach with a sniper rifle so the medics come to help him. Shoot them and so on and so forth. It's the same game snipers have been using forever. Things like this are not hard coded. But it happens because of every little other aspect that is. This breaks into the realm just a little bit for true procedural gameplay. And THAT is why this game is next gen.

Now, they could be bullshitting, since most anticipated games are usually not nearly as great as they seemed to be upon release, but it's okay to keep your fingers crossed.

Oh but wait, you can't point the gun with your wii controller so it is obviously behind the times. Next gen doesn't HAVE to be cross-platform. It's the next generation of technical, graphical, and gameplay oriented achievements.

It's not "next gen", because there are no generations in PC gaming, "next gen" is a console term.

Warbie

11-10-2007, 06:55 PM

we have dinner at 4:30pm lights out by 7pm ..oh and the nurse comes by around 6:30 to give us our meds ..I take a blue pill to combat senility and a red pill to combat forgetfulness ...or is it the other way around? I forget ...

Just try to remember to get them in the right hole this time :)

Can one of you give an example of what Next-Gen gameplay is. What exactly should you be able to do that hasn't already been done? Pick your nose? Put your finger up your arse? Commit suicide? Lick the walls?

While not all 'next-gen', there is quite alot more i'd like from fps. Mirror's Edge is attempting to add to the genre in a way not yet seen before by giving you more presence in the game and i'm looking forward to the first shooter that blends hit/death animation and ragdolls successfully. And headshots, headshots are cool. I'd quite like heart shots, or weak spots in body armour to aim for - having to shoot where the plates join, or perhaps through the weaker glass protecting the eye. Eye shots :)

I'd like more realistic reactions - for a bad guy shot in the knee to crawl away leaving a blod trail. And, if only to stick a finger up at Jack Thompson, i'd like him to beg for me not to finish him off (which i'd probably do, being a big softy). I want a fps that makes you feel guilty and captures just how nasty and violent guns are.

So much effort is being put into making the same games we've been playing for years simply look better. I'd much prefer it to look like you were actually shooting the bad guy - then things would start getting interestingly moral.

Laivasse

11-10-2007, 07:00 PM

'Next-gen' is a buzzword for hardware, which should never be applied to how a game plays.

You can have truly innovative gameplay (Portal), games that repackage tried and tested gameplay elements in a new and polished form (HL2), games that are a pleasure to play solely because of the depth of the plot and atmosphere (Bioshock) or whatever.

What is key is that any of these types of games can be superb titles, based entirely on the quality of the writing and design. You don't necessarily need massive innovation and you don't necessarily need an incredibly intricate plot. The real divide in games is simply quality, and there is no such thing as 'next-generation' quality, there's just quality vs tripe.

CptStern

11-10-2007, 07:02 PM

It is a video game that will employ new features such as wind and air fields, lift generation, procedural fire, 50 square km fully open to the player from the start with zero load times.

hey it's stalker ...or what it was supposed to be like ...I'll avoid the disappointment and wait to see if Far Cry 2 delivers on any of these promises ...hey didnt HL2 promise procedurally generated fires? "hey look the fire is spreading"

Seems we're also seeing some primitive subsurface scattering and ambient occlusion. Also, unparalleled motion blur and depth of feild in game.

kinda like gears of war or what Valve promised would be included in source what 2 years ago?

The gameplay isn't improved upon drastically, but the technological advancements seem to lend a hand. Shoot someone in the stomach with a sniper rifle so the medics come to help him. Shoot them and so on and so forth. It's the same game snipers have been using forever. Things like this are not hard coded. But it happens because of every little other aspect that is. This breaks into the realm just a little bit for true procedural gameplay. And THAT is why this game is next gen.

doesnt sound any different than what's currently on the market ..or maybe I'm just not understanding what you're saying cuz it sounds like more of the same

Now, they could be bullshitting, since most anticipated games are usually not nearly as great as they seemed to be upon release, but it's okay to keep your fingers crossed.

or what they're hyped up to be years before the game comes out ..again I'll believe it when I actually play it

Oh but wait, you can't point the gun with your wii controller so it is obviously behind the times.

says who? and why would shooting make a game next gen?

http://cache.kotaku.com/assets/resources/2006/11/wii-gun.jpg

Next gen doesn't HAVE to be cross-platform. It's the next generation of technical, graphical, and gameplay oriented achievements.

that's far too vague, that could apply to a number of games that come out on the same platform

knut

11-10-2007, 07:18 PM

Can one of you give an example of what Next-Gen gameplay is. What exactly should you be able to do that hasn't already been done? Pick your nose? Put your finger up your arse? Commit suicide? Lick the walls?

Actually, some of the simplest things (albiet, not as silly as your ideas :P) haven't been done yet. Why do I need to find a key to open this door when I'm carrying a fething rocket launcher on my back for? I can't get around this invisible wall because theres a few crates or a dreaded barricade/road block in the way, etc etc.

CR0M

11-10-2007, 07:58 PM

Perhaps a Wii Supermarket game that involves slowly walking around, picking up bits of fruit and veg, examinging them for ages, giving them a squeeze, and them putting them back :)

Ugh, OAP slime. So that's where all the green drool on my lettuces comes from.

Next gen will always be a vague and nerdy reference to Captain Picard and his now ironically outdated future technology, an empty promise that never quite gets there, kinda like saying Today is Yesterday's Future and Tomorrow is the Past of the Day After or some other such obscure bullshit. It's a marketing tool to seduce the witless and it works incredibly well by the looks of some of the tat that is released under it's pretense.

CptStern

11-10-2007, 08:03 PM

It's a marketing tool to seduce the witless and it works incredibly well by the looks of some of the tat that is released under it's pretense.

where do I sign up for my xbox720/PS3.5/WiiToo? I want tomorrows next gen today and possibly tomorrow

CR0M

11-10-2007, 08:14 PM

:dork:

__________________

Bad^Hat

11-10-2007, 09:40 PM

Why are we still calling it next-gen? That implies we're talking about the Playstation 4 or Xbox 720 or whatever comes next. Why not current-gen? Or is that not buzzword-tastic enough?

ríomhaire

11-10-2007, 10:50 PM

Glo-Boy

12-10-2007, 11:30 PM

Captain Stern,

Yeah, some of those features were promised for those games, but we all saw them announce the removal of those features one by one. Crytek hasn't done that, they only continue to unveil new surprises. The effects I am talking about are already available in the Crysis beta. A multiplayer beta. DX10 isn't even included with it. Once that is turned on, we'll enjoy a bunch of new features on top of those, including volumetric light fog. Hell, it's probably already in the beta, but just turned off and hidden deep within the bowels of the code.

I downloaded the orange box today and am pretty happy with the purchase. I just hope Valve starts spending more time on new features rather than trying to fake ones that already exist in other games. They kind of put all their eggs in one basket with source, and the engine is almost five years old.

Samon

12-10-2007, 11:42 PM

Crysis looks shit. Not from a visual stand point, of course.

99.vikram

13-10-2007, 01:49 AM

I downloaded the orange box today and am pretty happy with the purchase. I just hope Valve starts spending more time on new features rather than trying to fake ones that already exist in other games. They kind of put all their eggs in one basket with source, and the engine is almost five years old.
Valve has it's head screwed on straight unlike Crytek. :sleep:
Source graphics are more than awesome enough to require only minor upgrades every year, so they can spend more time working on the gameplay.

The result is Episode 2, a game which may not be a technological marvel, but has excellent art direction, gorgeous environments, realistically rendered characters and the finest gameplay this side of the year 2000 (for an FPS).

Besides, they have added so much - HDR and bloom, color correction, motion blur, advanced particle effects (for fire and stuff), new AI, new lighting, foliage rendering, cinematic physics, dynamic shadows, Multicore optimizations etc.
...and film grain is in the works.

knut

13-10-2007, 02:40 AM

You can't because making a completly open and explorable game world completly impossible and counter-productive for most games. Games have to have some form of barrier for a play area and a reasonable, logical, impassible boarder is almost impossible to create and so we must have a lot of arbitrary ones instead.

Edit: And there's no such thing as next-gen gamplay.

But... it looks shit. You can have the most realistic, in-depth game ever and then you can get hindered by a wooden door or a burnt out car restricting you from going to a different area. Either give these things work arounds or don't implement them at all. If they are going to put them in, which they will, then at least make them resonable. I've seen a few Left 4 Dead videos now that show areas of a street blocked by shitty, easy accessable ''blockades'' that lamely cover up invisible walls and it pisses me off.

Asus

13-10-2007, 02:58 AM

It's hard for me to take something or someone seriously that makes claims of next-gen. It's a dumb over-used term.

As long as the market is always aiming to improve and it is visible then we are set. No need to have some vague high bar to measure games by before we crown them with 'next-gen' status. Games improve fine without this distracting target to hit.

Glo-Boy

13-10-2007, 09:01 AM

Besides, they have added so much - HDR and bloom, color correction, motion blur, advanced particle effects (for fire and stuff), new AI, new lighting, foliage rendering, cinematic physics, dynamic shadows, Multicore optimizations etc.
...and film grain is in the works.

Yes, but what I'm saying is that these other engines have these features and a lot more. Source is really great for backpedaling, in terms of the fact that it runs with Direct X 7 (do the new games still do this?).

But all these effects are also fake.

-HDR lighting and bloom? Fake.
-Color Correction... not sure what you mean by this.
-Motion blur. Pretty nice but not strong enough in my opinion.
-Particles seem to be baked.
-AI didn't seem a whole lot different to me, what has changed?
-Lighting is nice, but still, it doesn't look that new or impressive.
-The foliage can't be compared to most new games coming out... especially Crysis.
-Cinematic physics are awesome. I hate to keep going back to Crytek, but seriously, there are baked simulations that will swap geometry to a more basic but realtime dynamic rigid body simulation if that particular object is interacted with during it's animation. Pretty bad ass.
-Dynamic shadows? I guess with the flashlight...

I joined these forums because I'm a half life fan. I'm bitching about the source engine right now because it feels like about 30% of it represents valve's greatness, and the rest is falling behind quickly. Walking around a level in source makes me feel like I'm on a TV show set, rather than in a real environment. They're still using matte paintings to finish their landscapes instead of procedural geometry or even just larger proxy sets. And when will we see a higher poly count on in game objects? Bad edge faceting on models really shows nowadays.

Is valve going to keep using this engine forever? Their games may be 100% top quality but my god, source seems to be aging poorly despite the new features. By the way, episode two was awesome.

Oh and Warbie. I just noticed your little remark about 24 fps. Are you retarded? Are you? I don't want to talk down to you or whatever if you have a disability so just let me know in a PM or something. If not, holy hell. I'm gonna make it really easy for you to understand what I was talking about. And anyone else who joined in on the warbie bandwagon - Watch a movie. Then watch something on television like the news or Conan O'Brien. You will see a difference in the motion of the people on screen. If you can't, you need new eyes, or you just can't interpret visual signals like a normal human being. With properly simulated motion blur with an appropriate number of steps for each frame, 24 frames per second most closely matches the human eye. In the near future, video games will look better when locked at 24 frames per second. Mark my words.

Alig

13-10-2007, 10:44 AM

Actually, some of the simplest things (albiet, not as silly as your ideas :P) haven't been done yet. Why do I need to find a key to open this door when I'm carrying a fething rocket launcher on my back for? I can't get around this invisible wall because theres a few crates or a dreaded barricade/road block in the way, etc etc.

Yeah but that wouldn't make it next-gen, it would just make it to easy. Not to mention, if you wanted things to be that real, you wouldn't have a rocket launcher to begin with. I don't recall ever going out my house and seeing a Rocket Launcher and some Rockets on the top of a hill crest while driving down the country road i drive down every day. :P

Same would apply to things like "Oh, nice mountain over there - Think i might go rock climbing! Damn, shame i can't reach it" or you see a sink, but you can't grab your Dove soap and have a quick wash. They can't make games as realistic as real-life or why even sit playing it, when you could go outside instead.. and its cheaper.

I don't know about most people, but i prefer games unrealistic if its the right game. I, for one, would not of played WoW for 2+ years if it had its oversized weapons, big monsters and magical powers replaced with Swiss Army Knives, Rabid Dogs and Card Tricks. I love my unrealism, it makes it worth playing.

knut

13-10-2007, 01:38 PM

Yeah but that wouldn't make it next-gen, it would just make it to easy. Not to mention, if you wanted things to be that real, you wouldn't have a rocket launcher to begin with. I don't recall ever going out my house and seeing a Rocket Launcher and some Rockets on the top of a hill crest while driving down the country road i drive down every day. :P

Not necessarily, I bet theres hundreds of ways to make things like that work. I'm not too familiar with the term 'next-gen', nor so I care, but I reckon it'd be next generation gameplay anyway because, as far as I'm aware, something like that hasn't been done yet. Having unrealistic games is all good and well (believe me, I do like unrealism as much as realism as there can be borders to what's fun and what's not), certain things just have to be chopped or broken down in order to make this harder task easier, like take away the silly ability to carry over 9 weapons at all times, to make this easy task harder, etc etc.

If you're playing an FPS game a rocket launcher is going to appear at some stage, for sure. Unlimited ammo crates are a bit annoying but I don't see why having a rocket launcher in a war game is so odd.

Warbie

13-10-2007, 02:29 PM

Oh and Warbie. I just noticed your little remark about 24 fps. Are you retarded? Are you? I don't want to talk down to you or whatever if you have a disability so just let me know in a PM or something. If not, holy hell. I'm gonna make it really easy for you to understand what I was talking about. And anyone else who joined in on the warbie bandwagon - Watch a movie. Then watch something on television like the news or Conan O'Brien. You will see a difference in the motion of the people on screen. If you can't, you need new eyes, or you just can't interpret visual signals like a normal human being. With properly simulated motion blur with an appropriate number of steps for each frame, 24 frames per second most closely matches the human eye. In the near future, video games will look better when locked at 24 frames per second. Mark my words.

Blimey, mentalist alert. Did you read the link? (honestly, i'd be interested to read your thoughts on it). Perhaps even refute some of the points I made.

And now you're talking about the near future. The whole frames issue arose in regards to Crysis - which looks like arse at 24fps, as does every other fps there has been before. Yes, as I mentioned, things may change when/if motion blur is implemented more convincingly (it hasn't got close yet), but tbh, given the difference between film and the displays we game on, and the many differences between movies and video games, i'm not so convinced.

I'm not sure what your point about motion is, either. A little clarification? It seems you're suggedting motion looks smoother at the cinema than on the tele and therefore 24fps is the ideal? (forgive me if that's completely wrong or an oversimplification)

And no, i'm not retarded, although some people think I have a retardation in regards to Halo ;)

Operational

13-10-2007, 04:42 PM

Will anyone think that kindly of Crysis in 5 years, long after its visuals have been surpassed? I don't think so. People will still be talking about Mario Kart.
Oh man, Mario Kart. That is something I'm missing in my current gaming menu - a racing game with a focus on fun rather than realism.

I've seen a few Left 4 Dead videos now that show areas of a street blocked by shitty, easy accessable ''blockades'' that lamely cover up invisible walls and it pisses me off.
So how would you take a fundamentally open environment like a city and place the necessary restrictions on the player? The blockades tell the player that they can't go that way, most people accept this readily and move on.

Oh and BTW in L4D you can shoot down doors.

knut

13-10-2007, 05:00 PM

Oh man, Mario Kart. That is something I'm missing in my current gaming menu - a racing game with a focus on fun rather than realism.

So how would you take a fundamentally open environment like a city and place the necessary restrictions on the player? The blockades tell the player that they can't go that way, most people accept this readily and move on.

Oh and BTW in L4D you can shoot down doors.

Yes, I know they are acknowledged as blockades to restict you, it's just often they are put together in a really half-arsed manner. I'm not saying they shouldn't be there, just in some games they should have a bit more thought put into them. I'm mainly referring to COD games, where to block off a street they'd just put the same old burnt our car model at every other street entrance/exit and it looked shit.

Also, I did not know in L4D you can shoot down doors. That is cool.

Bad^Hat

13-10-2007, 05:08 PM

The problem is creating barriers that fit into the context of the world. You'd never see a wall in real life and just blindly accept that there was nothing on the other side, or a bridge, or a door. Doesn't work that way in games. To create believable environments you need to have the implication that something exists beyond the level itself, that it's part of a bigger city, or planet, or whatever. Therefore you need artificial barriers in order to keep that sense of realism (as counter-productive as that may seem). Would you prefer that every level were just surrounded by a giant wall?

Edit - Agreed on that last point. But it can't always be easy to avoid "invisible wall" syndrome and still maintain an open feel to the environments. Case in point: Half-Life. Probably one of the better examples of well implemented barriers, but the sense of linearity was always pretty prevalent. In that case it fit alright since you were actually in corridors most of the time, but again, it's all about the context.

Samon

13-10-2007, 05:18 PM

Oh man, Mario Kart. That is something I'm missing in my current gaming menu - a racing game with a focus on fun rather than realism.

Crash Team Racing > Mario Kart. Then again.

Warbie

13-10-2007, 05:21 PM

Which is why I often find more abstact gameworlds can feel more convincing - when you can make up the rules it's easy to make the context fit. So, Mario's standing on a 1000ft high mushroom and if he falls off he plummets into, well, doesn't really matter. Let's say soup.

Invisible barriers are a pet hate of mine, but as mr Hat says, they're hard to avoid sometimes.

Sedako

13-10-2007, 05:29 PM

I'm still trying to get my head around your definition of gameplay ;)

At the end of the day, none of this terminology matters. The only important thing is whether a game is fun or not. Will anyone think that kindly of Crysis in 5 years, long after its visuals have been surpassed? I don't think so. People will still be talking about Mario Kart.

Eh, I still go back to the original Doom every so often. I think what makes me go back to these games is the amount of enjoyment I had when they were first played it. If a game is memorable and fun, chances are I will most likely pick it up again sometime down the road.

Warbie

13-10-2007, 06:00 PM

Crash Team Racing > Mario Kart. Then again.

Whatever! Talk to the hand.

Crash Team racing! Ha!

etc etc :)

Bad^Hat

13-10-2007, 06:19 PM

Heh, when you mentioned abstract worlds the first game that popped into my head was Mario Galaxy. But that kind of cheats by making each of the "levels" a whole world unto itself. The only barrier to speak of is, well, empty space, which is completely simple but at the same time total genius.

And now I'm thinking of Eve Online in terms of open space and massive environments, but of course the biggest barrier there is a lack of enjoyment. :D

Also, sorry to inform you Warbie m'boy, but CTR is indeed > Mario Kart. ;)

AHA-Lambda

13-10-2007, 06:41 PM

Crash Team Racing > Mario Kart

Warbie

13-10-2007, 06:42 PM

I'll never believe you, NEVER!

Stigmata

13-10-2007, 07:14 PM

Also, sorry to inform you Warbie m'boy, but CTR is indeed > Mario Kart. ;)

Crash Team Racing > Mario KartWarbie, I'll get the shotgun.

Mesz

13-10-2007, 07:31 PM

Crash Team Racing > Mario Kart. Then again.

No. No. No. No. No. I can't stand all these Crash non-platformer games, they suck. I've always thought that the Crash Bandicoot platformers were better than the Mario platformers (apart from Super Mario 64) but I literally spent the first 2 years of my gaming life playing my N64 on games such as Mario Kart 64 and what not. As for "next gen" we're talking about stuff like the PS4 or the next Xbox console. Xbox 360 and PS3 are current gen because they're already here. Before they were released they were next gen because they were the next generation in gaming (duh).

At then end of the day if you're only looking at first person shooters then you're not gonna see much in terms of gameplay. First person shooters are a bit restricted in the gameplay department. I mean, your only objective in any first person shooter game is to shoot all the enemies and keep moving through the map. I'm not saying they're bad because of this, because if I go out and buy a first person shooter then thats what I generally expect and I find it fun. Although Half-Life has been given a lot of potential with the fact that the Gman can transport you through time and space so the storyline can still be connected yet entirely different and the Havok physics engine helps improve gameplay allowing sections of games to be nearly without enemies and big battles and just a sort of puzzle which you need to solve by using the Gravity Gun to place certain objects in place and get over obstacles. This provides the player with a breath of fresh air from all the banging and booming of fighting your enemies.

Not everyone likes the same games/genres/consoles. For example, I am a huge fan of the Halo and Half-Life series and I, for one, think the Xbox 360 is superior whereas my sister prefers RPGs such as Final Fantasy, Pokemon and thinks the Wii will outsell the Xbox 360. Don't get me wrong, I still love a good RPG and she does like going co-op or multiplayer on Halo with me but we have our preferences and sometimes we will argue over which series/genre/console is better.

Personally, I believe this guy is just trying to boost his own game. People will read that article and think, "Well if this guy has the cojones to say his game is better than Bioshock and Halo 3 then his game MUST be good!" (I know he didn't say his game was better than Bioshock or Halo 3 but that's what most readers will think.)

I don't think graphics make a game at all. I'm more interested in the storyline and where possible I will always play through a game on Easy mode the first time round so I can get the storyline quickly. A certain level of graphics is a requirement for me though. For example, if someone makes an 8-bit game for the 360 then I will make sure every copy of that game is burnt and fed to dogs. I will then personally see to it that the dog's faeces be sprinkled with anti-matter. No matter how good the storyline is.

So yeah, bottom line is, there is no such thing as next gen anymore until the new line of consoles are announced.