Read and weep, Absinthe.

[BHC]

WARNING: The following topic is WoW (www.worldofwarcraft.com) related

More lore down the tubes, yay!

New 25 man raid dungeon in BC featuring the Sun Well and Kil'Jaeden as its final encounter (http://news.curse.com/details/2592/)

A new raid dungeon harder than Black Temple will be added before the expansion. Expect this to be the Sunwell Plateau with the final boss being Kil'Jaeden.

And then 25 random n00bs from assorted areas of Azeroth, more than likely equipped to the teeth with 1337 ep1x invaded the hiding spot of Kil'Jaeden, Master of the Burning Legion, laying down the pwn4age and receiving better than average l00tz.

:|

[Tick]

The only reason why "lore" was created was so it can be used in games,there is no pint in crying about this.

[Bob_Marley]

Yes, there is.

When Warcraft IV rolls around there'll be no universe to set it in at this rate.

Not that Warcraft IV will roll around for a long, long time, but it will. One day.

[Tarkus]

Maybe they want to finish off the warcraft franchise, but it seems kind of diminishing to me that the burning legion ?ber boss can be defeated by 25 "heroes"

[Adrik_Senturu]

..so..you fight kil'jaeden...than Arthas..and than uh....Whats left? D:

[sea]

From what I know, the film is going to feature completely new characters and whatnot. Perhaps this is Blizzard's way of linking World of Warcraft and the current universe to the new stuff they have planned for the film and the next game.

[staticprimer]

Lore will have really gone to shit when they add a race that crashed to earth on an inter-dimensional space ship. OH WAIT!

[Sloth]

That was the only reason i played WC3 - the plot existed, wasn't the best out there - but it seemed deeper than the surface...

Thanks Blizzard, cash cow all the way to hell.

[Adrik_Senturu]

I dont really see where they'd go with a warcraft IV if there going to have you fight the all these major characters in WoW.

The only thing I could see them doing for a Warcraft IV would actually be to go over the events that happen in WoW and just use that as the story. Would work I guess for people who want to continue the story but don't want to pay a monthly fee too see it >_>

[Absinthe]

You know, if they can make it seem somewhat plausible via other major characters fighting with you or otherwise interacting in the encounter, I don't feel too bad about this.

However - and this seems more likely - if they turn it into another typical tank/spank fight where 25 mere mortals kill the ****ing master of the Burning Legion, I will eat a developer's baby. And if he dies, I better expect something ****ing dramatic. Not some generic, inane, villain banter like we got with Illidan. But seeing as how they've done a pretty good job of shitting over so much in BC, I'm not going to hold my breath.

I guess after taking out the Lich King and Kil'jaeden, we'll finally get a crack at a 25-man Sargeras raid. Woo.

[Absinthe]

The only reason why "lore" was created was so it can be used in games,there is no pint in crying about this.

Uhh... what? Yes, stories are made to be used in games. Obviously... I think.

It's a matter of whether or not the lore is handled well. Vanilla WoW managed fine, but it wasn't too risky because you were generally fighting unknowns and side villains that didn't play big parts (if any) in the previous games. Come BC with all its anticipation and so many of the characters are being bumped off ceremoniously or transformed through hack writing to justify apparently arbitrary decisions to make them killable. As an example: Illidan, arguably the largest character in recent WoW history who you could fight, had one of the most ignoble and stupid transitions of character, as well as one of the most disappointing and even frustrating demises.

[Adrik_Senturu]

They really tricked us with that whole Illidan thing too. I clearly remember a bunch of interviews where they said that we'd only be "getting in his way" and not really killing him or anything. So most people assumed he was gonna give some huge speech at 1% and just fly the **** out of the temple or something. Instead we got some bullshit, and he dies D:

[sea]

I dunno, maybe he'll be back. Illidan is a pretty bad ass guy. Maybe the powers of the Skull of Gul'dan will give him some sort of... thing...

[Wanted Bob]

Guess they could make a Warcraft IV based on events before WoW and WC III

[Kyorisu]

Couldn't WCIV just ignore the events of WOW?

[Atomic_Piggy]

OMFG NO NO NO NO!
Now blizzard is just bieng stupid.
Right, so 25 level 70's can take down the current leaderof the Burning legion. ROFL right. :rolleyes: Aw well, I'll end up doing it anyway, no point QQing.

EDIT: and your proboaly right absinthe, knowing blizzard we will fight Sageras, and the old gods, and Ashzara...and everyone else...and still win.

[Absinthe]

If there is a WC4, I honestly think it would be in the game's interests to ignore WoW. So much has had to be twisted. Blizzard has never come out and said how much, if any, of the lore in the game is considered canon (ie. If I kill Deathwing in WoW, is he considered officially dead?). But everybody's sort of accepted that the moment a character becomes killable in a quest context, he's gone.

[Atomic_Piggy]

I don't know why people think there will be a warcraft 4, because really, in WoW wwe are gonna kill everyone, so no-one will be left. Thats not to say I wouldn't want a warcraft 4, btu if the did what absinthe suggests and wipe wow's lore of the map, then many wow players (including myself) would be pissed for playing through that for nothing.

[Eejit]

The whole Archimonde kill was complete bullshit as well.

[L3adCannon]

I have no idea what`s going on and what this lore is.

Did Blizzard just **** the main warcraft story over or something?

[Rapstah]

Forty million Wisps and a two mile fall killed Archimonde.

Twenty-five players will kill Kil'Jaeden?

[Septih]

Wow, less QQing please. Would you be this pissed off if you managed to kill major villians and characters from WC3 in WC4? The warcraft plot was created in the first 3 games, what's wrong with it being furthered in a different genre of game? The only thing i'll agree on is the lackluster explanations of why we're killing some characters and from what i've heard the epicness of the fights.

[Atomic_Piggy]

Aye, Hyjal sucked. I expected a badass LOTR fight.
Aw well, it would be cooler if Kil'jeaden smashed up Quel'Thalas to get there but aw well xD.
You'll all have to excuse my previous reaction. Blizzard always gets me like that. "Kill kel'thuzad, kill Arhtas, kill keal, etc."

Wow, less QQing please. Would you be this pissed off if you managed to kill major villians and characters from WC3 in WC4? The warcraft plot was created in the first 3 games, what's wrong with it being furthered in a different genre of game? The only thing i'll agree on is the lackluster explanations of why we're killing some characters and from what i've heard the epicness of the fights.

Er, the fact that 25 level 70 adventurers can kill the lord of the burning legion and Sargeras' right hand?

[PvtRyan]

But I'm sure you'd all be just perfectly happy to kill no-name villains, I can already see the advertising of WoW expansions:
"Kill Bob the Ogre who did some very mean things in Elwynn Forest"

You all know main characters are going to have to die to keep this interesting, this isn't a Warcraft game without interacting with the big names of the Warcraft universe. And yes, WoW will be the game that progresses the lore, none of it will be considered canon (besides perhaps Kel'Thuzad in Naxxramas who is apparently going to die again in Wrath of the Lich King) but it won't be "25 randoms killed the mighty Lich King" but the lore that will be used later for books/games will be that Maiev and Akama killed Illidan, or that Tirion Fordring killed the Lich King with the Ashbringer, with perhaps a side mention of the army of adventurers. Nothing of the lore will be ruined, after all: you wouldn't complain if the Lich King would have died by the hands of Tirion in Warcraft 4. Hell, Maiev already captured Illidan in Warcraft 3, I really don't see the problem in what happened with Illidan.

Blizzard isn't stupid, so far every big name has either been killed in a weakened state (Ragnaros, C'Thun, Hakkar) or the adventurers got assistance by another big name. But how should Blizzard otherwise do it? Have Illidan hit for 25k and oneshot tanks because "he's a big name, a raid of 25 couldn't POSSIBLY kill him!"?

Look, there's two options: either you don't kill any characters of importance or you just have to suspend your disbelief for a while.

[sea]

I think they need to just have a quest that is literally unbeatable. That'd be pretty awesome.

[Bob_Marley]

Couldn't WCIV just ignore the events of WOW?

We can only hope...

[DannyC.]

A Warcraft 4..... after these past years of World of Warcraft.....? Hah.

[Atomic_Piggy]

I srsly doubt there will be a warcraft 4 for some reason. But I soppuse blizz are greedy bastards and would milk it still.

[DESSTROYER]

PHAT LEWT

[Atomic_Piggy]

Having read though that again, I can safely say its baseless fan speculation - until there is an official annoucnement I am not going to accept Kil'jeaden is the final boss of the sunwell.

[PvtRyan]

Having read though that again, I can safely say its baseless fan speculation - until there is an official annoucnement I am not going to accept Kil'jeaden is the final boss of the sunwell.

Well, the loot is better than BT, so the final boss will be harder than Illidan. And who is more powerful than Illidan? Yeah, it's speculation, but not crazy speculation.

[Atomic_Piggy]

But it can't honeslty be suggested that it would take 25 70's to bring down kil'jeaden, but however many (proboaly 25 or 40) level 80's to bring down the Lich King? The King (as I call him) has only just came into existance (in cosmic timeframes) while Kil has been around for god knows how many hundreds of thousands of years.
I'm not saying its not, but I srsly doubt its kil'jeaden.

[PvtRyan]

But it can't honeslty be suggested that it would take 25 70's to bring down kil'jeaden, but however many (proboaly 25 or 40) level 80's to bring down the Lich King? The King (as I call him) has only just came into existance (in cosmic timeframes) while Kil has been around for god knows how many hundreds of thousands of years.
I'm not saying its not, but I srsly doubt its kil'jeaden.

Well, didn't Kil'Jaeden need the help of Illidan to kill Arthas BEFORE he even became the Lich King? I think the Lich King is much stronger than Kil'Jaeden. Kil'Jaeden was about on par with Archimonde according to WoWWiki. And I'll doubt we'll get to kill him unassisted / at full strength. Bosses like Ragnaros, Hakkar and C'Thun should have been far too strong for level 60 raids, but they weren't at full strength. Likely to be the same for Kil'Jaeden. Or like Kael'thas where the raid is greatly buffed in power to be able to take him down.

[Atomic_Piggy]

Perhaps. We'll just have to wait and see.
If he was at the well, he'd proboaly be there to empower sargeras or something. As long as the excuse isn't to lame.

[Docm30]

Eh, what do I care? it's not the same Blizzard that made Warcraft 3 (and all previous games) afterall, therefore, I don't consider it canon.

[Gray Fox]

Why not? Did blizzard have a massive exodus?

[Bob_Marley]

I believe its a different department of blizzard. The team that made WCIII is currently working on SCII, IIRC.

[Atomic_Piggy]

But the story writer is the same guy. Chris Metzen. Therefore, WoW is canon, as he wrote the other warcrafts as well.

[Gray Fox]

The guy has talent. I love the lore of Warcraft.

[Absinthe]

Wow, less QQing please. Would you be this pissed off if you managed to kill major villians and characters from WC3 in WC4? The warcraft plot was created in the first 3 games, what's wrong with it being furthered in a different genre of game? The only thing i'll agree on is the lackluster explanations of why we're killing some characters and from what i've heard the epicness of the fights.

Shall be addressed below.

[Absinthe]

But I'm sure you'd all be just perfectly happy to kill no-name villains, I can already see the advertising of WoW expansions:
"Kill Bob the Ogre who did some very mean things in Elwynn Forest"

You all know main characters are going to have to die to keep this interesting, this isn't a Warcraft game without interacting with the big names of the Warcraft universe. And yes, WoW will be the game that progresses the lore, none of it will be considered canon (besides perhaps Kel'Thuzad in Naxxramas who is apparently going to die again in Wrath of the Lich King) but it won't be "25 randoms killed the mighty Lich King" but the lore that will be used later for books/games will be that Maiev and Akama killed Illidan, or that Tirion Fordring killed the Lich King with the Ashbringer, with perhaps a side mention of the army of adventurers. Nothing of the lore will be ruined, after all: you wouldn't complain if the Lich King would have died by the hands of Tirion in Warcraft 4. Hell, Maiev already captured Illidan in Warcraft 3, I really don't see the problem in what happened with Illidan.

Blizzard isn't stupid, so far every big name has either been killed in a weakened state (Ragnaros, C'Thun, Hakkar) or the adventurers got assistance by another big name. But how should Blizzard otherwise do it? Have Illidan hit for 25k and oneshot tanks because "he's a big name, a raid of 25 couldn't POSSIBLY kill him!"?

Look, there's two options: either you don't kill any characters of importance or you just have to suspend your disbelief for a while.

You mischaracterize our arguments. Or at least mine.

This is not an issue with killing major lore characters. This is an issue with the development and execution of such denouements being lazy and half-assed. Even if such events are not considered canon in future WC games, they are still very weak on their own.

I am not opposed to being able to kill major characters. I'm all for it if such deaths are handled with nuance and with a certain "epic" feel. But this has not happened. Illidan is the most prominent and recent example. A tortured, misguided anti-hero is turned into a generic villain because he went insane. I think this was pretty crap, but I could have swallowed it if the handling of his encounter drew from his history. If it had drawn upon his feuding relationship with his brother or his pathetic, unrequited love for Tyrande. If it involved significant characters that had largely shaped his development and could have concluded his life with finality and resolution. You cannot tell me that conjuring Maiev Shadowsong back from the dead - a character that nobody liked and was arguably just as twisted and vengeance-driven as Illidan himself - was a good way of closing his chapter. Personal preference perhaps, but you cannot convince me that a character who went toe to toe with Arthas getting offed by 25 players with little outside, magic assistance (ignoring the she-bitch) is satisfactory from a story standpoint. Considering the very rich backstory that the game has, I believe that Blizzard had many ways in which they could have handled the fight and death of Illidan far more successfully. Instead they opted for something lame and simple.

I don't think Blizzard is stupid. I do believe, however, that much of their handling of lore has shifted towards a loot-grind paradigm in which they are content with churning out content for the sake of raiding while utilizing characters with token purposes. As if the inclusion of these people is merely to remind you that you're playing a WC game, even though it doesn't have to make much sense.

Main characters do need to die to keep things interesting. But this is on the condition that their deaths are done well. Otherwise, it's not interesting. It's just disappointing.

[Que-Ever]

Illidan? I remember killing him so many times in WC3. He kept respawning from those altars, though :|

Is Absinthe weeping yet?

[Absinthe]

On the inside.

[PvtRyan]

You mischaracterize our arguments. Or at least mine.

This is not an issue with killing major lore characters. This is an issue with the development and execution of such denouements being lazy and half-assed. Even if such events are not considered canon in future WC games, they are still very weak on their own.

I am not opposed to being able to kill major characters. I'm all for it if such deaths are handled with nuance and with a certain "epic" feel. But this has not happened. Illidan is the most prominent and recent example. A tortured, misguided anti-hero is turned into a generic villain because he went insane. I think this was pretty crap, but I could have swallowed it if the handling of his encounter drew from his history. If it had drawn upon his feuding relationship with his brother or his pathetic, unrequited love for Tyrande. If it involved significant characters that had largely shaped his development and could have concluded his life with finality and resolution. You cannot tell me that conjuring Maiev Shadowsong back from the dead - a character that nobody liked and was arguably just as twisted and vengeance-driven as Illidan himself - was a good way of closing his chapter. Personal preference perhaps, but you cannot convince me that a character who went toe to toe with Arthas getting offed by 25 players with little outside, magic assistance (ignoring the she-bitch) is satisfactory from a story standpoint. Considering the very rich backstory that the game has, I believe that Blizzard had many ways in which they could have handled the fight and death of Illidan far more successfully. Instead they opted for something lame and simple.

I don't think Blizzard is stupid. I do believe, however, that much of their handling of lore has shifted towards a loot-grind paradigm in which they are content with churning out content for the sake of raiding while utilizing characters with token purposes. As if the inclusion of these people is merely to remind you that you're playing a WC game, even though it doesn't have to make much sense.

Main characters do need to die to keep things interesting. But this is on the condition that their deaths are done well. Otherwise, it's not interesting. It's just disappointing.

In your examples it's all Illidan, but by your talking Blizzard must have screwed up many more big fights. But I can't think of any, Ragnaros, C'thun, Onyxia, Nefarian, Kel'Thuzad were all pretty epic fights with a decent story leading up to them. And I don't think Illidan is one either, he wasn't just dumped in there to serve as bait to buy the expansion, because the entire expansion really does revolve around him, and finally culminating in his death. Blizzard really did craft an elaborate plot involving all big characters (Illidan, Kael'thas, Lady Vashj, Maghteridon) that can be seen throughout Outland. All things happening in Outland somehow involve Illidan and his alliance with Vashj and Kael'thas, like the Fel Orcs and Magtheridon and the draining of Zangarmarsh. It's all connected really and saying Illidan was just thrown in there as a simple token character to give the game WC appeal is not giving Blizzard enough credit.

Lore wise, I don't think there's reason to complain about Illidan's death, his motives were clear and enough reason to want him dead. The only valid complaint could be that he shouldn't be defeated by a 25 man raid with assistance of Maiev, but I think you're either overestimating Illidan or underestimating Maiev and the army of adventurers (remember, Blizzard once said level 60 players with BWL gear were about as powerful as level 3 WC heroes and I guess level 70's in tier 6 are at least twice as powerful). After all, Maiev did capture Illidan before. Maiev is indeed almost as bad as Illidan himself, but that was sort of the moral of the story; don't let the obsession take you over, which is also re-iterated at his death with the "the hunter is nothing without the hunt". I don't see why Maiev would have to be a likable character and I don't see who his nemesis should have otherwise been.

Perhaps Blizzard could've done it better, but that's always the case. But I think the initial "you won't kill Illidan, he'll escape" was much, much lamer than this.

[Absinthe]

It's not just Illidan. Lady Vashj had a similarly boring end. Kael'thas may not have died, but his entire transformation of character was sudden, uninspired, and all too convenient in order to have players fight him. In all likeliness, the only reason he was spared was because he can be used as a segue to more Burning Legion content later.

You keep bringing up the likes of C'thun and Ragnaros. To that I ask: who cares? We had little if any information on these characters prior to WoW. They were one-stop detours, introduced as villains as quickly as they were slain. What role did Hakkar play in WC1-3? None, as far as I can tell. Comparing them to established lore characters that we have prior experience with isn't the same. Basically, I don't give a shit if Onyxia didn't have the best demise ever because she never existed prior to WoW.

There certainly is a story leading up to BT, although I hate it and think it's stupid. Is it all connected to Illidan? Yes, but Illidan could just have been replaced by some carbon copy villain since the last boss of BT exhibits practically none of what made his character in WC3 or TFT. It seems like Blizzard put a lot of effort into making the likes of Kael and Illidan villanous... for some inane, unknown reason. Magtheridon comes back from the dead, Illidan starts pumping out fel orcs and waging war on Shattrath for the hell of it, Kael'thas turns into a nasty racist who <3's the Burning Legion now. But why? Oh wait, they went insane. I guess that makes everything fine and the foundation of BC gold.

Maiev was not central to Illidan's story arc IMO. She was certainly an antagonist, but did not approach anywhere near the level of development Malfurion or Tyrande played. She was a yipping brat that players witnessed engage in deception and betrayal. At no point did I consider her an ally and at no point did I want to help her. This is not an indication of my personal bias. This is an indication of how poor Blizzard's choice of characters was. If you're going to kill off a major character from WC3 and TFT, then why would you settle for resurrecting a twisted corpse in Outland (which is exactly what Maiev was prior to BC) as some lite nemesis to fight Illidan as if to conclude some epic struggle between the two that never really existed in the first place?

The moral of obsession was far more succinctly and eloquently expressed with Maiev chasing Illidan in futility across the barren wastes of Outland, dying as a husk consumed by her own obsession over capturing Illidan. Instead, Illidan keels over, Maiev mumbles a single-line existential reflection, and everybody goes off on their merry way. No, this is balls.

[Atomic_Piggy]

I don't dislike Maiev as a character - in fact I think shes a brilliant character. But she is a bitch.

[Absinthe]

Fair enough. I still think she was better off dead and that Blizzard's decision to use her as the final tool of conflict resolution with Illidan was extremely poor. :\

Illidan isn't even a favorite character of mine. My opinion of him veers between like and dislike. So it's not like I'm arguing from some platform of favoritism when I say his death sucked. No, such colorful rants shall be saved for Zul'Aman...

[i am HOLLYWOOD]

It's not just Illidan. Lady Vashj had a similarly boring end. Kael'thas may not have died, but his entire transformation of character was sudden, uninspired, and all too convenient in order to have players fight him. In all likeliness, the only reason he was spared was because he can be used as a segue to more Burning Legion content later.

You keep bringing up the likes of C'thun and Ragnaros. To that I ask: who cares? We had little if any information on these characters prior to WoW. They were one-stop detours, introduced as villains as quickly as they were slain. What role did Hakkar play in WC1-3? None, as far as I can tell. Comparing them to established lore characters that we have prior experience with isn't the same. Basically, I don't give a shit if Onyxia didn't have the best demise ever because she never existed prior to WoW.

There certainly is a story leading up to BT, although I hate it and think it's stupid. Is it all connected to Illidan? Yes, but Illidan could just have been replaced by some carbon copy villain since the last boss of BT exhibits practically none of what made his character in WC3 or TFT. It seems like Blizzard put a lot of effort into making the likes of Kael and Illidan villanous... for some inane, unknown reason. Magtheridon comes back from the dead, Illidan starts pumping out fel orcs and waging war on Shattrath for the hell of it, Kael'thas turns into a nasty racist who <3's the Burning Legion now. But why? Oh wait, they went insane. I guess that makes everything fine and the foundation of BC gold.

Maiev was not central to Illidan's story arc IMO. She was certainly an antagonist, but did not approach anywhere near the level of development Malfurion or Tyrande played. She was a yipping brat that players witnessed engage in deception and betrayal. At no point did I consider her an ally and at no point did I want to help her. This is not an indication of my personal bias. This is an indication of how poor Blizzard's choice of characters was. If you're going to kill off a major character from WC3 and TFT, then why would you settle for resurrecting a twisted corpse in Outland (which is exactly what Maiev was prior to BC) as some lite nemesis to fight Illidan as if to conclude some epic struggle between the two that never really existed in the first place?

The moral of obsession was far more succinctly and eloquently expressed with Maiev chasing Illidan in futility across the barren wastes of Outland, dying as a husk consumed by her own obsession over capturing Illidan. Instead, Illidan keels over, Maiev mumbles a single-line existential reflection, and everybody goes off on their merry way. No, this is balls.


i've been playing Warcraft games since i was 8. . .

and i have to agree with you. . .


i stopped playing WoW right as BC launched partly because of the story gayness. . .

[Atomic_Piggy]

Fair enough. I still think she was better off dead and that Blizzard's decision to use her as the final tool of conflict resolution with Illidan was extremely poor. :\


Don't get me wrong, I wasn't disagreeing with you. D: