Underwater Levels; Yay or Nay?

[nokori3byo]

I've often had the feeling that underwater areas in games are widely disliked by the gamers who play them. To choose one classic example, the Water Temple in Ocarina Of Time seems to be the one aspect of the game that doesn't recieve full marks from its fans. On the other hand, the underwater areas in Duke Nukem 3d were some of the most challenging in the game, despite their annoyance factor.

Notice also that underwater sequences were kept to a minimun in HL2 (only small areas in Route Canal and Ravenholm, IIRC).

Where do you weigh in on this aspect of game design? Can it be done well, and what are some examples of well implemented water levels? Should it be avoided entirely?

(Oh, and I suppose the title of this thread should actually be "Yea or Nay").

[Absinthe]

I can't really judge underwater areas in terms of their quality. This is because I'm generally too freaked out to care.

I hate underwater areas. Especially in FPS games. Not necessarily from a technical or gameplay standpoint, but because the sensation of having enemies being able to attack you suddenly from any direction is perhaps the most uncomfortable I've ever felt. Having the audio all muffled too, where every sound becomes an indecipherable drone or gutteral punch doesn't help.

Plus, I'm not a big fan of ocean-dwelling things any way. Too much creepy shit.

[Asus]

When you are on land most things are in a 2D direction. There are a few things that fly but they are easily spotted because they are not that far from your view point and they usually make sounds to attract your attention. While underwater you have to keep watch from all directions and varying height. Plus movement is stunted and sound is distorted. So it's harder to navigate and keep track of enemies.

edit
Exactly what Absinthe said.

The only underwater part of a game I don't mind playing is in Mario.
Or if there was a game that did not need me to respond quickly to enemy bullets flying by my head. Maybe a submarine game.
The word helpless comes to mind when thinking of underwater levels in general. Games where you fly planes don't have that same issue even though you have to keep watch every direction too. Probably because movement is quick, not slow.

[nokori3byo]

Hmmm...the possibility of drowning has always been the greatest source of anxiety for me, though I'm not sure why is so.

[Uriel]

Personally, I want boat levels in which you try and avoid the water.

[Jintor]

Spyro.

The early Sypro games pulled off underwater quite nicely, imho, despite not being able to breath fire there.

[Uriel]

Commander Keen Anyone?

http://www.netbroadcaster.com/new/shorts/flash/dopefish.gif

[Samon]

It's been a good while since I've played anything underwater based, so I can't judge. Probably the last was Tomb Raider 2, where the developer decided I should just 'guess' which way to go, before Lara ran quickly out of breath and/or got eaten by great white sharks.

[Absinthe]

It's been a good while since I've played anything underwater based, so I can't judge. Probably the last was Tomb Raider 2, where the developer decided I should just 'guess' which way to go, before Lara ran quickly out of breath and/or got eaten by great white sharks.

I always skipped that level. Never had the the heart to play it.

[Mutley]

Tomb Raider 2, I thought it did underwater levels very well. Was an awesome game but yeah that map where you just had to guess which direction to go was a bit difficult, lol.

[-Psy-]

I hate underwater levels even more so when they are badly designed and you don't know where to go then you start to run out of oxygen and your like "shit shit shit" and you still can't find the exit and you start to get real mad and just give up on the game because some retard decided it would be fun to make the exit to the surface really hard to find.

*breathes*

[Eejit]

Commander Keen Anyone?

http://www.netbroadcaster.com/new/shorts/flash/dopefish.gif

Dopefish ftw. Second dumbest creature in the universe.


I dunno underwater levels scared the bejeesus out of me in X-Com TFTD because the Tentaculats (basically 'flying' Cryssalids O.o)

[Gray Fox]

I don't like then either. But I do believe they could be done right. I would like to see a underwater exploratory level, no fighting just explore ruins for 5 minutes, with some story in between. Being under water could be a great place to create tension while at the same time provide an alien like world to explore.

[venturon]

When they are done well they can be great fun. For example, Banjo Tooie had an absolutely fantastic underwater level where you got to turn into a submarine and torpedo things.

For the most part though, underwater levels are pretty average. Anyone remember the underwater levels in the side-scrolling Donkey Kong games? Holy shit they sucked.

[Samon]

Or Crash Bandicoot Warped? **** the relic underwater missions and **** em' hard. :|

[-Psy-]

I don't remember any underwater missions in Crash 3. :|

[Zephos]

I love underwater levels, so mystical and relaxing :D

Example - The sunken freight in Metroid Prime was made of pure awesome, had a fantastic atmosphere.

[Bob_Marley]

I like them when done well. They're one of the few areas where you have a true 3 dimensional battlefield in a game, which makes a refreshing change and gets the most out of using a 3d interface. Much more interesting than running and gunning down corridors.

[BHC]

http://www.videogamesblogger.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/Underwater.jpg
http://www.damnedmachines.com/legend_screen182.jpg
http://www.gamerevolution.com/oldsite/games/dreamcast/adventure/ecco5.jpg
http://www.meinberlin.de/fototouren/bilder/790/bioshock_01.jpg (the future of water in games, starting with Bioshock!)

Ahh water levels, one of the most questionable and recognizable video game cliches. I must say if done right, they can be quite enjoyable. Posting pictures of some favorites of mine. All Nintendo games that come to mind (with the exception of Sega's Ecco, but that's what I grew up playing.

[Malfunction]

As much trouble as water usually brings, I still like the idea. Mario games have always handled it rather well.


One part of a game I really disliked (read: loved) was the water caverns (I forgot the name) in Metroid Prime 1, when you need to go grab that one suit that let you move normally while under water. Your sluggish movement while under was quite a change from what you were used to. The enemies weren't overly hard, but still provided enough "Oh shit they can come from everywhere," moments. The reward for dealing with the whole mess is so great. As soon as you get the suit, not only do you feel genuinely badass (great art direction in those games), but you can now move around nearly 2x faster than you just were. No longer were you afraid of underwater environments in the game.

Note: I also remember the graphics/art direction being especially good in this area. One small, notable effect were the water drops over your visor upon coming up from under a body of water.


So like I said, while water usually means trouble, I respect games that can pull it off well. The true "3D" environment provides for some unique and scary situations that you just can't find on normal land.

Also, I loved the Water temple in OoT. It was difficult yes, but in a good way. You really, and I mean really, had to think before and after switching it's switch to change the water levels. I imagine it was quite a design process. Props to the developers.

[CrazyHarij]

Commander Keen Anyone?

http://www.netbroadcaster.com/new/shorts/flash/dopefish.gif

quoted for mother****ing truth.

[Loke]

Depends on what game it is. For FPS I'm fine with it as long as it's not dragged out, i.e. fighting most of the enemies underwater, piss off the player with cheap instant death traps etc.
2D platform games is also fine with me, mainly Super Mario World and especially Donkey Kong Country, which is just plain awesome with the slow gameplay and "underwater music".

I just hate water levels in third person games like the Tomb Raider series. Not only is it hard to navigate through the levels but also because the controls for swimming is just plain awful. And if that wasn't enough most of the time the camera is horrible resulting in either you drowning or getting killed by some evil fish.
The underwater areas in Ratchet & Clank, which had you swimming around, were also pretty frustrating because of the sluggish controls.

If you'd asked me about underwater levels in FPS's back in 1996/1997 I'd probably said it sucked. The water levels in Duke Nukem 3D and Blood gave me nightmares, especially in Blood because of the ****ing horrifying creatures that lurked in the water (and also sometimes it's goddamn impossible to get out of the water).

[B-MAn]

I hated the water levels on Sonic 1 :(

[ríomhaire]

Depends on the game. I like underwater levels in Sonic. For the most part they just play as normal levels, but with the added tension because you have to keep getting to air bubbles or you drown.

[DEATH eVADER]

Hmmm...the possibility of drowning has always been the greatest source of anxiety for me, though I'm not sure why is so.

Tomb Raider was the source of my anxiety all the time for running out of air :|

The thing is none of these games provide you with an aqua-lung

[Lucid]

I love underwater levels, one of the only reasons I'll still pop in Tomb Raider from time to time.

Water arenas in Quake 3 and UT99 were a blast.
Fighting underwater in Tribes 2 was exceptionally fun too.

[Samon]

My Tomb Raiders don't ****ing work. :|

[sea]

Anyone who finds the Water Temple in Ocarina of Time anything more than just "somewhat challenging" is kind of a dope. Just learn to use your Dungeon Map; it's there for a reason. There's only one really tricky place in it (the central pillar where you need to raise the water, then sink down into a hole that forms), and even that isn't too tough.

I think the reason people dislike water areas in games is primarily the lack of freedom that goes with them. Movement speed is usually cut, and swimming controls, if provided, are often quite cumbersome. There's also extra things like finding oxygen and reduced vision to worry about. All of these hurdles can be a bit too much to jump over for most players.

Therefore, you need to strike a balance between too little and too much water so the player doesn't become frustrated or bored with the stuff, but also so that it feels like a legitimate, significant and conquerable aspect of the game. There has to be a gain to the pain, or else you're bound to see at least a few flying controllers. Metroid Prime and its sequel Echoes are fantastic examples of where water, which is almost ridiculously encumbering, can be surpassed and, though not negated gameplay-wise, morphed from an obstacle into an opportunity: the player becomes even more maneuverable underwater than they are on land.

On the upside, usually art direction (not just visuals, but audio as well) is fantastic in such environments, which makes them all the more memorable, for better or for worse.

[Fliko]

I don't like Underwater levels. I find them not very well designed in most games (Bioshock will probably be awesome though.)

[French Ninja]

That horrible sound... (http://realconandrown.ytmnd.com/)
:(
I hate water levels.

[Samon]

(Bioshock will probably be awesome though.)

Does that even count?

[VirusType2]

I'm suprised nobody mentioned HL2

I liked the underwater parts of HL2, Morrowind, Oblivion, Super Mario Bros.(except it got too hard to be fun), Far Cry, Mega Man, Castlevania, Ecco the Dolphin, Evolution, and countless other games.

There has only been a couple games for me where the underwater thing was a negative part of the game, and I can't think of them ATM.

So basically, I think it adds something to the game, and a change of pace if it's done well.


BTW Samon, what the happened to your post count... oh, I see you changed titles. Grats! An editor. Now you can edit your post count? ;)

......

*runs away*

[nokori3byo]

I'm suprised nobody mentioned HL2



Yeah, I liked the bit in "Route Canal" with the changing water levels, followed by the puzzle involving the use of wooden spools as flotation devices. Sort of a elegant diptych of physics puzzles in which water enabled progress rather than simply acting as a hindrance. The water-logged segment of the Ravenholm Mines seemed to serve no other purpose than providing one last creepy and unnerving hassle for the player, though.

I always found it funny that, for a long time, water meant instant death in the GTA games. It was one of the few things that could still reliably kill you when your health and armour were maxed.

[DEATH eVADER]

I don't like Underwater levels. I find them not very well designed in most games (Bioshock will probably be awesome though.)

Bioshock will probably end with the water engulfing Rapture, and you suffocating underwater :sleep:

You didn't think the setting was much of a forshadowing

[ríomhaire]

Anyone who finds the Water Temple in Ocarina of Time anything more than just "somewhat challenging" is kind of a dope. Just learn to use your Dungeon Map; it's there for a reason. There's only one really tricky place in it (the central pillar where you need to raise the water, then sink down into a hole that forms), and even that isn't too tough.
I got stuck because I didn't see two torches in some room in the corner of the temple that you have to light. After I got the help of a walkthrough for that I was able to finish the temple myself fairly easily. BTW, how did you guys defeat Dark Link? He killed me a few times but in the end I just beat him by hammering him into the ground with Biggoron's sword.

[sea]

I ended up using Din's Fire for the longest time, which meant getting a whole bunch of Green Potions. Of course, it was only a few years later that I found out that the Megaton Hammer works just as well on him, which is what I use now.

[kupocake]

The Underwater UC level in Deus Ex was pretty neat. Includes a bit where you can do some deep-water exploring for supplies in a flooded wing, if your stats and equipment are that way inclined. Ironically, the Strategy Guide claims that the level is intended as a tribute of sorts to the System Shock games (crazy computer is crazy). That's come full-circle with Irrational doing Bioshock I suppose.

I was a big fan of Archemedian Dynasty in the day. That was a pretty good underwater level. The Aquanox series can go get raped by a colossal squid though.

Underwater levels in sonic games kind of worked... but as with everything else in the game, the trick seemed to be keeping as far from the 'bottom' of the level as possible, because there was usually a 'dry' route where you didn't have to fart around gulping air-bubbles all the time.

Edit: Thinking of Deus Ex reminds me... it's important that modern games HAVE water somewhere. Yes, full blown water-levels are unnatural and annoying, but Deus Ex Invisible War? Need I say more?

[Exploder]

Underwater levels are really hit or miss for me. I can't think of a game that had excellent water levels... maybe Donkey Kong Country. But still, I love the idea of an underwater level, and I really hope Bioshock will pull it off.

[sea]

Underwater levels are really hit or miss for me. I can't think of a game that had excellent water levels... maybe Donkey Kong Country. But still, I love the idea of an underwater level, and I really hope Bioshock will pull it off.I've been playing a lot of Donkey Kong Country and its sequel on the Virtual Console lately, and I'd have to agree with you. The underwater levels are a nice change of pace, look excellent, and, in the first game, have some really nice music. My brother doesn't like them, though, for whatever reason.

[Samon]

The Underwater UC level in Deus Ex was pretty neat. Includes a bit where you can do some deep-water exploring for supplies in a flooded wing, if your stats and equipment are that way inclined. Ironically, the Strategy Guide claims that the level is intended as a tribute of sorts to the System Shock games (crazy computer is crazy). That's come full-circle with Irrational doing Bioshock I suppose.

Oh wow, definitely.

[Darkside55]

I can't think of any good underwater levels I've played. Thinking of underwater levels reminds me of Atlantis in Kingdom Hearts 1, which pisses me off. Damn that level! Where the shit am I supposed to go? Haven't I been here before? **** this world, let's leave.

[kupocake]

Thinking of underwater levels reminds me of Atlantis in Kingdom Hearts 1, which pisses me off. Damn that level! Where the shit am I supposed to go? Haven't I been here before? **** this world, let's leave.
Oh god yes... that level nearly made me hate 'Under the Sea'. That's quite an achievement.

[TheAntipop]

The Water Temple in Makjorca's Mask was ****ing awesome, albiet insanly complicated. The art direction of that place was amazing. Saying that, I really enjoyed the Water Temple in Twilight Princess, but maybe I liked it so much because it all looked so beautiful.

[Que-Ever]

The only underwater level I can think of is otoh gunga in the phantom menace. *shiver/gag*

I used to like that game. Five or six years without it has made me realize the truth.

[Loke]

No one likes the underwater levels in Super Mario World? :( I think they were pretty awesome.

[Warbie]

No one likes the underwater levels in Super Mario World? :( I think they were pretty awesome.

Yeh, Mario has always done water levels well (except for Sunshine - Nintendo completely ballsed up the controls!). Infact, Mario 64 springs to mind first when thinking of great water levels. I bet everyone who owned an N64 remembers the first time that massive eel comes swimming at you. It's one of the very few 'omg, I can't believe gaming could get this good' moments i've experienced over the years.

Donkey Kong Country also had some decent water levels, although I haven't played this for years and it could be nostalgia talking, and Eco was obviously lovelly :)

[Mikael Grizzly]

I really, really like underwater levels. My personal favourite are the OceanLab levels in DeusEx. KOTOR's underwater sequences are good too.

Don't forget Archimedean Dynasty and Aquanoxes too :)

[Absinthe]

Ugh, KOTOR?

The underwater levels were cool in Deus Ex. I particularly liked littering the corpses of my enemies across the maps. But KOTOR was irritating. Movement was far too slow, and battles were too spaced apart, easy, and foreseeable for any tension to build up. I'd lock my movement stick into place and take a piss.