Engine Vote / Discussion

[Ennui]

ITT: Discuss and ultimately vote on what engine we'd like to use: Torque or Source. Read the thread before you vote!

SOURCE
Source is the obvious first choice because it's what we're all used to, and some people feel that we're obligated to use it because this is a Half-Life 2 fansite. Source gives us more powerful graphics and a more familiar toolset, but there are a few extremely debilitating bugs that could seriously hinder development. Examples of Source games are all recent Valve titles, Dark Messiah, Left 4 Dead, and Postal 3.

TORQUE
Torque is, without a doubt, more suitable for this game/mod from a development standpoint. It has a more streamlined toolset and a better development pipeline, and there are no crippling bugs as in Source. However, it costs money (which we would be able to raise, as it's not more than $100 or $150 for an Indie license), and isn't quite as graphically powerful. Tribes and Tribes 2 were both made on Torque.

Torque is the better choice, in my opinion. Really, this poll is asking if we're willing to put forth a lot of extra effort and headaches in the process of development, in order to use Source because, well, Source is our home.

I personally vote for Torque, but the majority will decide. We have to decide this immediately because we cannot start any real content development until we have come to a consensus.

POLL CLOSES IN TWO WEEKS

[Rapstah]

Source. With it we'll be able to distribute development tools to everyone, while Torque will turn it into a pain in the a55.

[Ennui]

AFAIK most of the Torque tools are easily downloaded, I think you can use Radiant for map editing, modeling is normal, etc.

[Krynn72]

I went onto the torque forums and read a lot about it, and it seems to me like the whole production pipeline for torque is much less of a hassle than in source. I vote torque.

[Naudian]

Doesn't matter much to me, whatever is easier I guess...I'm only gonna be making sounds anyway.

I'd still prefer to see us use Source though :(

[Vegeta897]

What happened to the issue of liscensing and such with Torque?

Voted Torque.

[Cole]

You should definently go with Torque. Torque will end up being more customizable than source in the long run. You'll have an easier time implementing thing aswell. Also they are making a C# version of torque.

Also you wont be limiting your audience to those who have HL2.

Scripting language already implemented in Torque(You'd have to implement something like LUA if you wanted it in source)

[Jintor]

Let the die fly high - I roll Torque. 'Cept I can't do a damned thing about money, because I have no credit card.

[Azner]

Well any plans for raising money before we even talk of using Torque?

I vote source, much more familiar to many people who would be interested in this game.

[GordonFreeman911]

What game is the Torque engine from?

[Angry Lawyer]

Source, obviously.

There's also the problem that this project suffers from 99% ideas men syndrome, so neither engine is going to do any good ebcause you're just Sourceworlding more and more instead of getting something with the barest of basics done.

-Angry Lawyer

[6Three]

umm guys can i be on teh team????

[Ennui]

Source, obviously.

There's also the problem that this project suffers from 99% ideas men syndrome, so neither engine is going to do any good ebcause you're just Sourceworlding more and more instead of getting something with the barest of basics done.

-Angry Lawyer

The main difference is that while Source is difficult to jump in to, Torque isn't as much - there's loads and loads of documentation and tutorials - and if I have to I'll do the coding myself, though that'd be a slow process to say the least. I probably would not be able to do that in Source :(

[Yorick]

What game is the Torque engine from?

Tribes 1 and 2.

[TCfromBN]

Source. Less money involved.

[Krynn72]

umm guys can i be on teh team????

Yes, just make a post in the contributors thread. And not another one about ze antlions.

So as of this post, there are more source votes than torque. Im wondering, how much experience do you guys have in using custom made content in source? From what Ive seen and dabbled in, it seems pretty un-intuitive and, to be blunt, a pain in the ass to import stuff. I mean, i had a hard time following a tutorial on how to import static meshes, I can only imagine what its like to have rigged characters and custom animations be brought into it.

So who here has experience in doing those things? Because you'll probably need to teach a bunch of us if we go with source.

[clarky003]

Definately glad it's source that got the votes, I'm very familiar with it :).

[StardogChampion]

I vote Blitz3D since there's no way you'll be able to create something complex enough that B3d won't be capable of. Plus I have a great lightmapper to make nice looking levels with Blitz3D.

Another engine is Irrlicht.

[TollBooth Willie]

Sauce.

[Azner]

Sauce.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_engine
&
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque

[GordonFreeman911]

Interesting. If I could, I'd change my vote to Torque, but it lacks voicechat though.:(

[Ennui]

There's always Ventrilo.

Also note that if you want to change your vote one way or the other, you can do so - just make sure you're clear about it in the thread (ie I change my vote from ____ to _____). This only applies until the poll closes on the 27th.

[Solaris]

There's always Ventrilo.

Also note that if you want to change your vote one way or the other, you can do so - just make sure you're clear about it in the thread (ie I change my vote from ____ to _____). This only applies until the poll closes on the 27th.
But becuase its not a public poll I can now say I change my vote from torque to source even though I voted for source in the first place so now source gets two votes and torque loses one.

I would like to change my vote from torque to source.

[Angry Lawyer]

Source isn't difficult, it just doesn't have loads of tutorials. It's just C++. Saying "We'll use Torque because it has tutorials" has implications of doing cut-and-paste coding.

-Angry Lawyer

[Shinobi]

if I can get some decent gameplay coding in source then it isn't that hard :p



the thing is no matter what game engine you use, once you want to modify the gameplay significantly it becomes hard and requires lots of planning, there's no magic scripting language that make complex gameplay changes as easy as point-n-click

[Angry Lawyer]

Then again... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Click_%26_Play)

-Angry Lawyer

[Shinobi]

touche :p


but you know the scope of that has to be very narrow


interesting though :)

[Angry Lawyer]

Klik and Play was one of the first true not-just-doing-level-editing things I tried. 1994. Christ, I was 8.

-Angry Lawyer

[theGreenBunny]

I would recommend Torque, though I have not personally worked with it.

The reason I would never, ever start on a project on Source is the utterly lacking documentation. We're not even talking about tutorials here to cut and paste from. We're talking about a more basic level, just bare bones basic explanations of how things work. If you work with Source, I can guarantee you will run into this a lot, and you'll have to figure out a lot of things all by yourself, because it will simply be undocumented. If you're lucky you'll have some old example files/code bits to help you. The more you dig deeper, do advanced stuff and the more you go into "alien territory" for Source, ie. the more you diverge from the HL2/CS FPS form, the more you will encounter this. It's not fun. It can be very frustrating and time consuming.
The positive side is that the community is writing its own documentation here and there at the valve dev wiki. At the current rate, Source should be a viable option in another year or two :p

This poll has a few problems.

1. People who are not ever going to touch the engine are voting, they will not be the ones who will suffer the brunt either engine's disadvantages, only enjoy the strengths (of which Source's are more visible, eg. graphically advanced)

2. Torque is a less viable option because it costs money, which in combination with the next point can result in that money being wasted.

3. Related to the previous two. I'll quote Lawyer:
There's also the problem that this project suffers from 99% ideas men syndrome, so neither engine is going to do any good ebcause you're just Sourceworlding more and more instead of getting something with the barest of basics done.
Unavoidable with a community project, and I'm sure you've heard it often enough. It's relevant though, because it means any investment (see: Torque cost, but also time investment) is a very risky one.

[Krynn72]

Is torque just licensed to a project? Like, if we were to buy it, would we not be able to use it later, after our community project?

[Gray Fox]

We can always torrent the engine. And only if the community project comes far do we decide to pay for it. Because then we can be sure it won't be a waste.

[TCfromBN]

Unavoidable with a community project, and I'm sure you've heard it often enough. It's relevant though, because it means any investment (see: Torque cost, but also time investment) is a very risky one.

bingo.

[theGreenBunny]

Is torque just licensed to a project? Like, if we were to buy it, would we not be able to use it later, after our community project?

http://www.garagegames.com/pg/product/eula.php?id=111 :
Licensor grants Licensee a single "seat" to an individual, a limited non-exclusive, non-transferable license to use the Torque Game Engine ("Engine) for the purposes of making source code and object code for an unlimited number of electronic single or multi-user Games ("Games").
Meaning anyone who buys it could indeed use it outside of this project as well if they wished.

[Krynn72]

Well, in that case, I'd probably be willing to pay for it pretty much by myself. :D

[TollBooth Willie]

CPR on this mother f*cker!

[Angry Lawyer]

Torque isn't some instant win, by the way. It's still just a bare-bones engine that you have to do a LOT of work to make into what you want.

-Angry Lawyer

[Koola Mena]

Source

[Geogaddi]

I'm not qualified enough to have a valid opinon.

Also: THIS SUBFORUM SHOULD BE LOCATED OR HAVE A STICKY IN THE LOUNGE. I KEEP FORGETTING IT'S HERE.

[Krynn72]

Me and Ennui got the link in our sigs. I think thats as close as we'll get to a sticky.

[6Three]

Rethink the mod before making engine choices :)

[CyberPitz]

Torque. Not much money all in all, and if it will make what we want to do easier TO do...I vote it.

[Krynn72]

Thread over. We use Source.

/me uses my imaginary mod powers to close the thread.

[Naudian]

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/1015/threadclosedmo5.gif

[GordonFreeman911]

OH U, NAUDIAN!

(Capsowned)

[Azner]

Source or we have to change the logo.

[Cole]

Torque also makes your game HL2 and Steam independent.

[Krynn72]

Hey, did the new steam update fix the problem?? That would be sweet if it did.

[Krynn72]

Anyone wanna use the Unreal engine :) I just took a class on how to use it, so I know it pretty well now.

[Krynn72]

But seriously.

[clarky003]

It's okay, the only difficult part about source is that there isn't any tool tips if you get anything wrong, wasn't really built to be universally friendly but once you know not what to do it is quite simple. When I get some time I'll post up a tutorial for making a buggy so we can atleast all feel comfy ;).

[Krynn72]

yay!