Gameplay

[TCfromBN]

Assuming this mod is going to be a racing mod:


Do we want to have a serous track style for competitiveness?
Do we want to have wacky tracks with bumps and jumps with crazyness and hilarity?
Do we want to make it a challenge to complete the level/race?
Should it be a thing where there is one clear winner?
Could it be team based levels/races?
Are there going to be bosses for each level/race?


Anyway... I think you get the idea.


Here would be the place to add your thoughts/comments on the gameplay factors.

[Naudian]

Assuming this mod is going to be a racing mod:


Do we want to have a serous track style for competitiveness?


Maybe one map could be like that...



Do we want to have wacky tracks with bumps and jumps with crazyness and hilarity?


Hell Yes.



Do we want to make it a challenge to complete the level/race?


How so?
Fun > Difficulty



Should it be a thing where there is one clear winner?


For a race without any AI boss, yes...



Could it be team based levels/races?


Sound's interesting...



Are there going to be bosses for each level/race?


Like an AI driver that everyone else has to team up against with kart-mounted machine guns?
Yes please.


So my picture of the game so far is like this:
While not racing, you can walk around and chat or whatever...
Racing modes:

Gamemode 1: Everyone races to get in first place. Dunno if guns and stuff should be part of it...

Gamemode 2: Everyone chases an AI boss and works together to destroy it? Or just tries to beat it in an actual race...whatever

Gamemode 3: Two teams of racers who want one of their team to get in first. Guns involved. Lots of them.

To start off I think we should just stick with one of the above, keeping it simple until we have something playable.

So.
Who's up for learning how to program all this since we don't officially have anyone yet? :P

[CyberPitz]

Gameplay ideas are best implemented with a coder :p

[GordonFreeman911]

Maybe one map could be like that...


Hell Yes.


How so?
Fun > Difficulty


For a race without any AI boss, yes...


Sound's interesting...


Like an AI driver that everyone else has to team up against with kart-mounted machine guns?
Yes please.


So my picture of the game so far is like this:
While not racing, you can walk around and chat or whatever...
Racing modes:

Gamemode 1: Everyone races to get in first place. Dunno if guns and stuff should be part of it...

Gamemode 2: Everyone chases an AI boss and works together to destroy it? Or just tries to beat it in an actual race...whatever

Gamemode 3: Two teams of racers who want one of their team to get in first. Guns involved. Lots of them.

To start off I think we should just stick with one of the above, keeping it simple until we have something playable.

So.
Who's up for learning how to program all this since we don't officially have anyone yet? :P

I'd have to say Gamemode 3.

[Jintor]

Wow, do we need programmers. :D

I'd like an 'all vs. one' scenario maps where someone is the big big boss. Or maybe an AI boss, I dunno.

[Krynn72]

It will probably be easier for us to make any bosses player controlled. Otherwise we would need a coder who can actually program some AI for us, and I think thats a bit of a stretch for a team that still has no coders.

[99.vikram]

I just have this tiny doubt - is this going to be a Source mod or are you coding from scratch? D:

[Jintor]

Sause.

[Krynn72]

Haha, no way are we coding this from scratch. I dont think we have decided upon what engine though. Source might be ok, but if vehicles are going to be a big part then it may be better to use an engine with a lot of support for them.

[Beerdude26]

Source works perfect for vehicles, you just need to know how to code them. Look at Empires, they have 24-player servers with 10+ vehicles and they still ping at 80.

[Ennui]

I'm more worried about our power over the actual control and handling of the vehicles than the engine's capability to support it. I say we use Source, though, just because we have a fair bit of content to work with (textures and the like) and we're all familiar with it already.

Control (how the vehicles handle) is going to be everything in this mod, importance wise. We need major emphasis there.

I was thinking game-modes like this:

Wacky Racing: Mario Kart / Wacky Racers / Diddy Kong Racing, but with rocket launchers instead of bananas
Arena: Everyone vs. 1 player-controlled Boss, in a circular-ish Arena modeled after a forum
Team Racing - like Wacky Racing, but with 2 teams
Deathmatch/TDM: self-explanatory, using Arena maps


As far as weapons go, I was thinking maybe we could use rocket launchers that fire straight and fast, and upgrade as you get kills or points?

[Jintor]

How about branching, choosable upgrades?

Not sure if that's codable but I thought i'd throw that out.

[Ennui]

That's codeable, sure. I think actually figuring out a non-intrusive way to choose which branch to upgrade to while playing/racing is more of a problem, not to mention exactly what would be on each branch.

[riomhaire]

I think each kart/racer should have 1 or 2 unique abilites.

[Jintor]

What, you would choose a different racer for each map?

But then I could be Samon in a map!

That wouldn't work at all!

[Krynn72]

I think we should get to a stage where we have things working at their most basic level first. We should get the game working with as little code changes as possible so that we can get a better perspective on what we can accomplish without having a dedicated coder. We may need to use the default hl2 vehicle code if we cant figure out how to get unique driving gameplay.

[Ennui]

We do need a coder even to get that down, but we can be very productive for a month or two without one just making the assets. Then we can get a barebones version coded that we can build off of after that.

What we need to get started on now:
- design design design DESIGN
- placeholder kart / character / boss models, rudimentary skin/rigging/animations, get them ingame (even if we have to make the karts just props or whatever rather than vehicles)
- make sure we want to use source
- custom textures for levels, but first finalize the art direction / theme

[Jintor]

I'm on it... after wednesday.

Assessment assessment assessment. -____-

[Krynn72]

I'll start making models as soon as we get some concept art going. Also, could someone link or write up a tutorial on getting models into a mod.

I think we should take the ideas garnered so far from this thread and put them up for vote. Instead of making an actual poll though, I think we should have people rate the ideas on a 1-10 scale with multiple criteria like originality, ease of implementation etc.

[Naudian]

Maybe I should make a Sound effects thread later on, but for now, what should the carts sound like? Classic lawn mower powered or 250cc racing carts?

Or are these carts going to be powered by street bike engines? :E

[Solaris]

I think I could code models into the game if thats any help.

[Ennui]

Maybe I should make a Sound effects thread later on, but for now, what should the carts sound like? Classic lawn mower powered or 250cc racing carts?

Or are these carts going to be powered by street bike engines? :E

Depends if we want them to sound cool or kiddie.

[Absinthe]

I think the ability to exit/enter carts would be awesome. But then that would require a considerable paradigm shift from the straight-up racing gameplay.

You could say I'm more biased towards combat, because I'm not a fan of racing games. =P I do think that a cohesion of vehicular and on-foot combat would be neat. Vehicles could be used to traverse a map, run players over, or battle other karts. But then you'd also give players the ability to exit the vehicle into a highrise of some kind where he could rain down sniper fire or rockets.
The challenge would be finding a way of deterring the unintended consequence of "sniper war" gameplay.

[Ennui]

I concur absolutely, I've always visualized this as a racing game primarily but it would be so much more fun if you could go on foot as well, which means we could make the karts destructible in non-racing tracks.

[Krynn72]

I agree that out of kart gameplay would greatly increase the replayability of the mod. I like the idea of splitting the gameplay by map also. Im thinking we could have a standard DM and Team DM on larger maps so that karts would serve large purpose.

But I also think we should have racing maps where you dont get weapons, but you can get out of your cart. I think it would add some fun to the "track" maps, since now players can get out and cause mayhem on the track. If we give them a gravity gun, or allow people to pick up things, they could make road blocks, ramps, death traps etc. Would definitely spice up the "racing" component.

[TollBooth Willie]

What about environmental hazards and persistent terrain deformation? Say we have some sort of canyon level and you are racing through a tight area. Shoot a rock column and it collapses, blocking the progress of others or even killing them, or even a city. Stray rocket hits a building, chunks has possibility of crushing a player. And having the land deform Worms style would be neat.

[Absinthe]

Such gameplay elements are going to depend on the engine being used. And I think that's getting a bit too advanced for the time being.

Terrain deformation would be cool, but I don't consider it a priority.

[Ennui]

Definitely. We need to stick to things within the scope of our reach right now, which, given that we don't have a programmer, is minimal.

Furthermore: are we sure about the boss combat thing? I feel more like we should keep it to a bunch of little racers fighting each other, the boss thing might stagnate and I don't know about performance with a huge character like that in multiplayer... plus there are always balancing problems when it's all vs. one. Opinions, arguments for or against?

[TollBooth Willie]

We could start out with the racers fighting and all that jazz, and later on add in the boss thing as a separate mode?

[Absinthe]

I'm in favor of dropping the boss idea for the sole purpose of keeping our aims realistic. Set your sights low and then work up from there.

[Ennui]

I think that's a good idea, though of course if anyone feels very strongly about it we can discuss it further. I think boss gameplay would get pretty old and boring (same old same old) after a few times fighting the same one.

Maybe a few years down the road if we really do well we could add a singleplayer with bosses :p

[Ennui]

This is the most important thread right now, so we really need everyone to pay a lot of attention to it.

[Rapstah]

I want those Bond-style jet chair launchers in the karts.

[Ennui]

You mean like a rocket-controlled eject chair?

[riomhaire]

OK, say something like every racer has a different balance of acceleration, top speed, cornering, health and firepower. Every racer also has 2 powers and they must charge up their power bar to use them (By damaging other players, taking damage from other players, collecting pickups, getting the fastest lap etc). One weak power which they only have to have a fraction of the power-bar full to use and a stronger one that needs the entire power bar full to use. Also, there is generic power-up items on the track like a turbo boost, free homing rocket, health restoration and, as mentioned above, one that fills your power-bar.

Sounds good?

[Rapstah]

Then how would importable models work?

Not saying anyone said we should have importabe models, but anyway.

[Jintor]

I think boss gameplay wouldn't get old given that there would be a randomly selected player controlling te boss.

I also like Riomhaire's ideas, and am leaning towards not having importable models; but lacking coders, this is all conjecture.

[TollBooth Willie]

Live dammit live, LIVE!

[Ennui]

I'm about to CPR this mother****er.

[GordonFreeman911]

This mother****er has been CPR'd.

[Naudian]

Okay, what if we stuck with just one game mode and one map for now?

Here, have a bunch of random thoughts:

Team VS Team type 1. Important part bolded.
Lets say we start this project with only three kart models. Two leader models and a generic model. The leader karts could be something like the banana kart and krynn mobile, while the generic kart is the type where you can import your own avatar onto a block. (OR there could be a built-in list of avatars to choose from)
So at the start of the map, everyone chooses from either team Banana Rape or team Happy Xmas Dog. After a moment the game will start and a leader is then randomly selected or voted, iunno.
The leader will drive the team kart, and the rest of the team will drive generic ones. Their job is to help get the leader through the finish line before the other team's leader.
They can do this by whatever you guys can come up with, crashing into the other team/leader, protecting their own leader with their karts, getting out of the kart and making obstacles/fighting with each other. I guess power-ups and stuff can be included.
I don't know, I'll leave it there for now...

Team VS Team type 2.
Sooo the way this is different from type 1 is that there is no leader, everybody has to try and cross the finish line. The team with everyone over the line first wins. As for what karts will be racing, I dunno. One team could all be banana karts and the other one all Xmas-dogs. Or one team has blue generic karts and the other has red generic karts...
In this mode, people who have already crossed the finish can turn around and try to stop any racers on the other team from finishing. Again, power-ups/downs would be cool to have in this mode.

I'm just thinking away here...post some ideas!

[Jintor]

Let's get some coders in here. No, srsly. We've got like everything else covered.

[TCfromBN]

If my karts would actually work with my sdk right now I'd work on a map. (Displacements are currently non-solid to the karts in hl2. Valve broked it.) Besides that, anybody wanna sketch out some plans for a simple map idea. I'll try to get started today or tomorrow.

[Jintor]

I'm on it.

[FoxFire]

I can code a little bit. I know C++, but I'm still getting "wet" with the Source engine. Most of the vehicle things are actually handled by scripts. Although you will need to code if you want to have multiple models attached to one vehicle (one file to handle all the vehicles as opposed to one file for every vehicle).
[Edit]
Personally, if this mod is solely based on vehicles, I would pick a different engine like Unreal or something. But, the Source engine is very doable although it isn't the most forgiving on vehicles. (Besides, I only know stuff about the Source engine atm :P)

[Rapstah]

I can code GoldSRC. :cheese:

[Ennui]

Actually... it could make sense to do it on the GoldSRC/HL engine rather than Source... as graphics aren't a big deal, and we can put out a lot more content that way?

[Rapstah]

HL2 is more mod friendly, and having a physics engine helps a lot.

Other than that, it's a great idea.

[Ennui]

True. The physics are an important asset for the game.

Still, does anyone think that the idea of developing on an engine other than Source merits discussion?

The Torque engine in particular looks like a very feasible idea, and developing in Source can be somewhat of a headache... the Torque pipeline looks a lot more solid.

[Vegeta897]

If my opinion matters I wouldn't have a problem at all with a non-source route.

[GordonFreeman911]

But then some members of HL2.N wouldn't be able to play it!

[Krynn72]

Well, since I have no experience working in any engine, I wouldnt care if we changed engines. The only problem i might have with it is that not everyone might have the game that the engine went with. I dont even know what Torque is for instance.

EDIT: Oh, I got beaten to it.

[Yorick]

I find it unbelievably amusing that the halflife2.net community project is talking about using a different engine.

Figuring that my opinion at the very least matters more than Vegeta's, I'm going to say stick with Source.

[Ennui]

Torque doesn't require a game, it's a standalone engine.

Also, what Yorick said is basically why I'm uneasy with it. It might be more adequate than Source, but we are a Half-Life 2 fansite. On the other hand, I'm not sure why that should have bearing on what engine we use, given that the project itself doesn't have anything to do with Half-Life.

[Yorick]

IMO it would have a bearing because it basically ruins the idea of being a "community" project. It's not about making a mod for a game that everyone on the team loves any more, as a coming together of fans. It's just another mod project for another engine.

I don't know, to me it's kind of a slap in the face to Valve. "We love your game, and all met at a fansite for it and we want to make a mod, but, uh, we're not going to use your engine."

It just feels weak to me.

[Ennui]

I feel you. I'm still not convinced that it's quite like that, though.

Still, this is why we discuss it. I don't particularly mind either way, but we should still consider non-Source development as an option.

[6Three]

Why don't you guys make a mod that is an extension of HL2.net, something like what Source World was supposed to be... before... well, let's not talk about him.

[Jintor]

What happened there? I have no idea...

[Rapstah]

Let's do Source.

[Krynn72]

Somebody (Naudian or TC, cant recall) told me that the driving mechanics and such in the source SDK was broken, and would need to be fixed by valve. This might... you know, make problems for us.

[Rapstah]

That was what blocked that Source Racer mod.

[Krynn72]

Well, then I guess that kinda means we need to use a different engine. A kart racing game cant really work without karts that race can it?

Yeah it might be kind of a slap to the face at valve, but its not that we didnt want to use it, its that they broke their sdk, so its their own fault.

[Naudian]

I don't wanna use no HL1 engine :(

Cmon Valve will fix that little issue soon enough, right?

right?

;(

[Rapstah]

The Valve modelling rules for HL1 say we should have about 500 polygons for every model then. :|

[Krynn72]

I dont wanna use the hl2 engine either. I think if we dont use source, we should use someone elses.

Torque looks interesting but it costs money...

[TCfromBN]

Currently you cant drive the buggy on terrain, you have to make solid blocks, which basically means no off-road for right now.

SDK is broked.

I'm not sure everyone will want to fork out cash for an engine for a community project... ya know what I mean?

[Rapstah]

Wasn't that issue fixable with -novirtualmesh?

And Valve should fix it soon anyway. D:

[TollBooth Willie]

Somebody should just email 'em about it. Maybe they will be willing to fix it.

[Krynn72]

I am going to just email 'em about it. Maybe they will be willing to fix it.

Fixed.

[Vegeta897]

IMO it would have a bearing because it basically ruins the idea of being a "community" project.?
Why does a community project have to be a mod? The only thing that "community project" means is that it's a project created by the community. That's its sole purpose. It matters not what engine or whatever that its using. I mean the idea wasn't even originally going to be a mod.

[TollBooth Willie]

Let's use ASCII.

[Koola Mena]

Fixed.

Really?!?

[Krynn72]

Really?!?

It better be.

*glares at willie*

[TollBooth Willie]

Alright. I'll need someone to give me an address. I is dumb.

[Ennui]

I dont wanna use the hl2 engine either. I think if we dont use source, we should use someone elses.

Torque looks interesting but it costs money...

I think that Torque only costs money for a commercial release / additional documentation and support, but I could be wrong.

[TCfromBN]

For Indies (http://www.garagegames.com/products/111/)

[Vegeta897]

I'm sure we could easily buy that with a donations thing set up. I'd donate a good amount.

[Koola Mena]

same... $10 AUD sound ok?

[TCfromBN]

I'd love to contribute with development but I won't be able to contribute with any money.

[Ennui]

I would also be able to donate some, but let's actually discuss using Torque or not instead of how we're going to get it if we do.

[Naudian]

I would also be able to donate some, but let's actually discuss using Torque or not instead of how we're going to get it if we do.

Lets not and use Source ಠ_ಠ

[TollBooth Willie]

ಠ_ಠ

6char

[Krynn72]

Lets not and use Source ಠ_ಠ

Then lets figure out how to make functioning karts without valves help.

[Rapstah]

And assuming we GET Valve's help?

[Krynn72]

??

I am assuming we DONT get valves help. We need someone who can fix what they broke, and I dont think we have anyone who can do that. We have no idea how long it will take for them to fix it, so I think we should consider a different engine.

[Stormy]

Just decompile the origanal hl2 buggy and use that as a base to create the carts, i dont really see the problem :/

[Jintor]

I think we want to get a mock-up running first...

[Ennui]

Torque is unarguably far more suited to the development of our project. It's more streamlined, complete, much more documentation - basically it'll be way less headaches and way more productivity.

Thus, the main question more has to do with why to use Source. We are a HL2 community, but this game has nothing to do with HL2 itself, it's about the forum. People had no problem when we were going to develop that Forumland game on a 3rd party 2d platformer engine... it's a similar concept here. Weigh in!

[Rapstah]

Torque would make Half-Life references illegal, would it?

[Krynn72]

Would we have any halflife references anyways? The only thing i have reservations about is the fact that we will have to have 100% custom content, since we wont have the hl2 stuff to build off of. Not much of a problem since we seem to have a lot of modelers and art people, but still... it will be a little more daunting.

[Rapstah]

Things like Breen and a Vortigaunt driving the cars, that is.

[Krynn72]

Well, we could easily change our concept art. Using the wrong engine is a much bigger issue.

I downloaded the demo version of Torque, and its pretty kick ass. I played their example racing game and I could pretty much SEE our game in it. It seems like it could support all of our ideas too. Plus the level editor seems like a cinch to use, and im sure that if you can do it with the Source SDK, you can pick up this easy.

I suggest everyone download the demo and give it a whirl. If we decide this is the engine we want to use, I'm down for dishing out some cash for it.

Demo Download Link: http://www.garagegames.com/pg/demo.php?id=1

(Just click "Begin Download", you dont need to enter your email address or any of that)

Also, does torque actually have physics? If not, then how did they get the racing buggy to bounce and bend like it did when it hit the ground?

[Jintor]

I think we'd be better off using Torque, esp. for racing...

[Ennui]

More input please :p

[Krynn72]

I, erm, obtained a copy of torque, and I was messing around in it for awhile last night. I can say that I honestly would rather use torque than source. It seems so much better for what we are planning, and its very easy to use. There is also a lot of documentation, and a active official forum where we can get a lot of help if we need it.

+1 for torque

Also, i just wanna make sure, but the $100 charge will let us give everyone on our dev team access to it right? Its not like each person needs their own copy or something?

EDIT: Oh... hrm.

2. LICENSE GRANT.

Licensor grants Licensee a single "seat" to an individual, a limited non-exclusive, non-transferable license to use the Torque Game Engine ("Engine) for the purposes of making source code and object code for an unlimited number of electronic single or multi-user Games ("Games").

[Jintor]

Faaarkk...

[Naudian]

Right-o, the mod is no longer a kart racer! Whose damn idea was that anyway?!

It's pure on-foot shoot-up-avatars-into-little-pieces now!

IN SOURCE!

F*CK YEAH.

Who's with me!? Lets get this bastard started ffs!!!1!1 http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/2812/emotlk8.gif

Ok really, this is how I feel atm:

We can add karts later, whenever SDK is fixed. For now lets just aim the whole project at having one fun map and the ability to play Deathmatch with eachother's avatars.

Anyone agree or shall I just shut up...? 8D

[Krynn72]

Just a DM game? Lame imo. I think most everyone was set on a kart racer type game. Plus... I REALLY dont like the idea of waiting for valve to fix the sdk. We have absolutely no idea how long that will take.

[TCfromBN]

How about we take making Sven coop 2 into our own hands.

ffs I want to play it already.

[TollBooth Willie]

Oh Hell no, this had better not fall the **** apart.

[Krynn72]

Its not, we just need to figure out what we are going to do about this whole "valve broke it" thing.

[Jintor]

Fix eeeeet.

[Krynn72]

Ok, how about this... is there anyway we can fake karts? Like... maybe have them flying or something? I wonder if there is anyway to bypass this obstacle and get the same or similar results.

*looks at Naudian*

[TCfromBN]

Ok, how about this... is there anyway we can fake karts? Like... maybe have them flying or something? I wonder if there is anyway to bypass this obstacle and get the same or similar results.

*looks at Naudian*

Airboats.

[TollBooth Willie]

Airboats.
Hell yes.

[Sh4x]

Hi, I'm new here. I'm mapping for this mod www.fortress-forever.com

You guys don't seem to have anything set in stone for this community project so let me propose this to you: http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?t=123769

Thanks for looking,
Have a nice day!

[Naudian]

Ok, how about this... is there anyway we can fake karts? Like... maybe have them flying or something? I wonder if there is anyway to bypass this obstacle and get the same or similar results.

*looks at Naudian*

*goes cross eyed*

That's an idea...

Airboats would be cool too! :O

I still don't see anything wrong with getting a simple deathmatch mod up and running first...just to sort of get familiar with doing things before we add vehicles?

And by "we" I mean the non existent coders. Jeez, they/he/she will be doing most of the work D: At least, in the beginning.

How bout we just change the project to making everyone learn how to code for source! :P

[Krynn72]

I suppose we could set up a DM just for now, that way we could work on mapping and creating custom content while we figure out the vehicle thing.

[TCfromBN]

Is there any way to do cell shading with Source?

[Rapstah]

Dragonball Source does it. D:

[Krynn72]

Ew.

[Jintor]

Want to map the Newbie Section first? :O

[TCfromBN]

How shall I do it? (concept art plz)

[Krynn72]

Hey, i just realized something... Next week I start my Game Art Creation class. Hopefully they will let me make stuff for this!

[TollBooth Willie]

I just realized something too...The Torque engine was used in the first two Tribes games.

[Angry Lawyer]

You can fake it quite easily. You'll need to fiddle with a lot of physics variables with the players (deceleration, turning rates) and just have the carts themselves as players. By making vehicles in the way HL2 does it, you're adding an unnessecary level of complications.

-Angry Lawyer

[6Three]

I just realized something too...The Torque engine was used in the first two Tribes games.

And we all know how badass the Shrike was.

[Ennui]

Yep, Torque is all Tribes; that's what it can do.

Though, AL's knowledge gem might give a bit more weight to the idea of using Source.

[Krynn72]

Would AL's idea make it so there is no on-foot gameplay though, since the players are the karts? Or could we swap out models and stuff when they decide to access their kart?

[Ennui]

I imagine we could just swap, but I'm not sure... Tony?

[Angry Lawyer]

Just have a switch between two movetypes - the same way Source handles noclip and standard walk mode.

-Angry Lawyer

[TCfromBN]

Clear!!!


*ZAP*

BREATHE, DAMNIT, BREATHE

[Rapstah]

It's a miracle!

[TCfromBN]

Dear god, I thought we lost you.

[GordonFreeman911]

It's...

ALIIIIIIIIIIIIVE!

[Rapstah]

let's keep it that way.

[Ennui]

See the vote thread about the engine!!

[TollBooth Willie]

CPR on this mother f*cker!

[TCfromBN]

ITS BACK FROM THE DEAD


D:


*runs around screaming*