Bethesda to announce new game Nov1st: Fallout3?

[CptStern]

probably new horse armor for Oblivion Elder Scrolls

At any rate, we're getting info on a game that'll be announced on November 1. So please look forward to that date, upon which you will be informed of everything. You'll find out, for example, how I got a thick layer of desert sand all over my white Old Navy shirt. Suspense!

please please be Fallout 3


http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/bethesda/new-bethesda-game-to-be-announced-november-1st-205509.php

[Cube]

Please be yet another Star Trek game.

edit: A Wii one would be cool

[dream431ca]

probably new horse armor for Oblivion Elder Scrolls



please please be Fallout 3


http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/bethesda/new-bethesda-game-to-be-announced-november-1st-205509.php


Um...stern...I knew that about 7 months ago. It WILL be fallout 3.

http://www.bethsoft.com/news/pressrelease_071204.htm

http://pc.ign.com/objects/568/568806.html

[Mikael Grizzly]

But what Fallout 3?

Will it be a gang-raped, pss poor shadow of it's former self, with wiki-style dialogue systems, complete voiceovers, vast deserted areas that take five minutes tops to travel, enemies levelling (rats -> radscorpions -> wolves -> Deathclaws -> Supermutants), OMGSHINY graphics, piss-poor Radiant AI, more real world weapons which don't fit the setting, complete disregard for estabilished plot and essentially a huge dump taken on the Fallout fanbase?

Or will it be a gritty, postapocalyptic retrofuture stylized after the fifties, a true cRPG with SPECIAL character progression, intricate, multilevel plot with ambigous moral nature, with plenty of fictional, stylized weapons? Where inter-racial conflicts run amok? Where you can't live safely until another day? With a world-map and isometric view? Turn based combat?

I love Fallout, and I wish for the second option, however my experience tells me we will get a hollow shell a'la Oblivion.

Bethesda/Oblivion fanboys need not reply.

[SAJ]

I'll be keeping my fingers crossed for fallout 3 using the same engine as oblivion.

mmmm, crunchy......

[DeusExMachina]

God, if Fallout 3 was just like Oblivion, I'd be in heaven.

[CptStern]

Um...stern...I knew that about 7 months ago. It WILL be fallout 3.

http://www.bethsoft.com/news/pressrelease_071204.htm

http://pc.ign.com/objects/568/568806.html


/me bookmarks post

nov 1st ..if it's horse armor you're gonna look silly :bounce:

[Shadow-warrior]

God, if Fallout 3 was just like Oblivion, I'd be in heaven.

HAHAHAHAHAHA... you were joking right?

[Unfocused]

Fallout 3, pls. ;)

[DeusExMachina]

HAHAHAHAHAHA... you were joking right?

No. Oblivion with guns in a post-apocalyptic environment with Fallout plotline? Yes please.

[GordonFreeman911]

Eww
Oblivion AI Sucked!

[Stigmata]

Looking back, everything about Oblivion, except the models and some of the combat, really sucked. I hope Bethesda uses better creative judgement this time around.

[Slacker]

No. Oblivion with guns in a post-apocalyptic environment with Fallout plotline? Yes please.

That'd be a pretty huge change though. Not to say a bad one however, I wasn't really a big fan of either Fallout games.

[DarkStar]

I wasn't really a big fan of either Fallout games.

Urge...to kill...rising.

[Hazar]

That'd be a pretty huge change though. Not to say a bad one however, I wasn't really a big fan of either Fallout games.

/me hits slacker with super sledge hammer 6 times criticalling each time

[Mikael Grizzly]

DeusExMachine, you have just earned the title of "lowest common denominator of the gaming industry" (TM). Do you have any idea what Fallout is about? IT was never about OMGSHINORZ graphics, not about piss-poor "Rapist" AI, not about miniature largest state in the TES universe, not about voiceovers, not about five hundred non-important face tweaks.

Fallout was about the 50s retrofuture feel, it posessed SPECIAL, isometric view, intricate dialogues, immersive and developed world, moral ambiguities, large and profesionally designed plot, believeable characters... it was all Oblivion is not.

And listen to yourself... Oblivion with Guns? Well, I extend an official invitation to you to visit our boards (No Mutants Allowed (http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/index.php)), and state your claim that "Fallout 3 as Oblivion with guns is OMGKEWL!". so that we can carve into your little skull, because I doubt a brain exists there, WHAT Fallout is and WHY we fear that Bethesda will rape it. Or, you might exercise those two neurons and research WHAT made Fallout so great, though I hop... err... fear the strain might kill you.

Thank you for setting the lowest standards for a forum user.

[Max35]

Don't think it will be Fallout 3, they already announced they were developing it, annoucing the game again seems redundant. Rather, Beth has stated they are making other games. Honestly, I don't think it will be Fallout 3. Of course, I could be wrong, most likely.

[Krynn72]

DeusExMachine, you have just earned the title of "lowest common denominator of the gaming industry" (TM). Do you have any idea what Fallout is about? IT was never about OMGSHINORZ graphics, not about piss-poor "Rapist" AI, not about miniature largest state in the TES universe, not about voiceovers, not about five hundred non-important face tweaks.

Fallout was about the 50s retrofuture feel, it posessed SPECIAL, isometric view, intricate dialogues, immersive and developed world, moral ambiguities, large and profesionally designed plot, believeable characters... it was all Oblivion is not.

And listen to yourself... Oblivion with Guns? Well, I extend an official invitation to you to visit our boards (No Mutants Allowed (http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/index.php)), and state your claim that "Fallout 3 as Oblivion with guns is OMGKEWL!". so that we can carve into your little skull, because I doubt a brain exists there, WHAT Fallout is and WHY we fear that Bethesda will rape it. Or, you might exercise those two neurons and research WHAT made Fallout so great, though I hop... err... fear the strain might kill you.

Thank you for setting the lowest standards for a forum user.

Someone takes his video games damn seriously. Can you guess who?

[Mikael Grizzly]

Those who care about the integrity of the Fallout canon.

I'll use an example: Bethesda doing Fallout, is like Sega doing Half-Life 3, only whoring it out, changing it into a Mario 64 style platformer with Wallace Breen as protagonist, set after the Citadel blows with OMGSHINY graphics.

Krynn, if you like your sequels piss-poor copies of the original, with complete disregard to estabilished canon, design and SUCCESFUL earlier games (I'm not counting Tactics or Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel, that POS for PS2), then it's your thing. I like mine integral and true to the story and design. ORIGINAL design: Tim Cain, Leonard Boyarsky...

[Gargantou]

Let's not forget Jason D. Anderson, Christian Taylor, Jason Taylor and Scott Campbell... They were also part in creating the original game design..

[Mikael Grizzly]

Aye, Gargantou. These two were off the top of my head... and Brian Fargo as the producer.

By the way, inXile Entertainment acquired the licence for Wasteland... is mr Brygo planning a sequel....? ;)

[Samon]

Fallout like Oblivion? Erm, no. I'd jump off a cliff and cry. Oblivion was fun, but mainly because of the combat and being able to wander where you please in a rather nice, if pretty generic world. But that was it.

[Unfocused]

I enjoyed Oblivion.

But I think Fallout 3 should stick to the "feel" of previous Fallouts - isometric view, turn-based combat etc..

[Shodan]

I hate, HATE turn based combat, that was what put me off the Fallout games, otherwise I enjoyed them, I loved the environments in them.

[Gargantou]

I love, LOVE turn-based combat, and I sincerely hope they don't make it real-time with optional turn-based, because we 'all' know how that turned out.*Smacks X-Com Apocalypse*

[Warbie]

I'll use an example: Bethesda doing Fallout, is like Sega doing Half-Life 3, only whoring it out, changing it into a Mario 64 style platformer with Wallace Breen as protagonist, set after the Citadel blows with OMGSHINY graphics.

I'd buy that :)

[Mikael Grizzly]

However, turn based combat allows for much more refined tactics and complexity of gameplay, as real-time combat (which is insanely hard to implement in SPECIAL) is essentially a clickfest. It was in Morrowind, it partially was in Deus Ex and System Shock... it requires mostly good reflexes and accurate eye, not careful calculation and planning.

[VictimOfScience]

Hmm, anyone's guess. Fallout 3? Maybe a proper official announcement with screenies or a vid or something. Other than that, who knows?? We should all be very excited though--Bethesda has some great talent.

[Mikael Grizzly]

Not for RPGs though.

[Bad^Hat]

That or... maybe an Oblivion expansion. They're a little overdue for one, and you know it's coming.

[guchi]

ofcourse it is, its pretty obvious I think.... :O

[Cerpin]

Don't you just love pretentious gamers, despite the oxymoronic nature of the beast?

[Core407]

I hope Bethesda announces a new Call of Cthulhu game that's developed in-house and not at Headfirst.

[DeusExMachina]

DeusExMachine, you have just earned the title of "lowest common denominator of the gaming industry" (TM). Do you have any idea what Fallout is about? IT was never about OMGSHINORZ graphics, not about piss-poor "Rapist" AI, not about miniature largest state in the TES universe, not about voiceovers, not about five hundred non-important face tweaks.

Fallout was about the 50s retrofuture feel, it posessed SPECIAL, isometric view, intricate dialogues, immersive and developed world, moral ambiguities, large and profesionally designed plot, believeable characters... it was all Oblivion is not.

And listen to yourself... Oblivion with Guns? Well, I extend an official invitation to you to visit our boards (No Mutants Allowed (http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/index.php)), and state your claim that "Fallout 3 as Oblivion with guns is OMGKEWL!". so that we can carve into your little skull, because I doubt a brain exists there, WHAT Fallout is and WHY we fear that Bethesda will rape it. Or, you might exercise those two neurons and research WHAT made Fallout so great, though I hop... err... fear the strain might kill you.

Thank you for setting the lowest standards for a forum user.

Oh Christ, its a ****ing Fallout fanboy. You people are the lowest of low. Of course I know what Fallout is about. I have Fallout 1 and 2. I've beaten Fallout 1 and 2.

Please, don't even pay attention to anything regarding Fallout 3. Tell your friends too. Elitist pricks. Its 2006. Someone obviously glorifies the 50s if he can't accept change :|.

[Shadow-warrior]

Change is fine, dumbing down for 'DA MASSES!' is not.

[DeusExMachina]

Forget the Oblivion comment if you're all hung up on that.

You're gonna have to realize "DA MASSES!" are the ones who buy games. "DA MASSES" are the ones make companies profit. Why do you think Interplay even bothered making the horrible Brotherhood of Steel? They needed money. They inserted shitty music with shitty gameplay and a shitty story (seeming to think this would even sell many copies is ludicrous in itself) and slapped Fallout on it. They even shut down production on Fallout 3 to MAKE BOS.

Sure, I would've rather had Obsidian Entertainment get their hands on Fallout, but it wasn't meant to be. Bethesda's got it, they've made award winning games, they know what they're doing. I trust they'll make something worthy of the Fallout name.

[Max35]

It seems to me the game that's going to be announced will be a NEW game, not one already somewhat announced (aka Fallout 3, as we knew it was in development).

[Slacker]

/me hits slacker with super sledge hammer 6 times criticalling each time

Honestly, it's not that they were BAD games, just games I couldn't really get into. I don't see what made them any better than Baldur's Gate or every othe r 2D RPG for the PC.

[DeusExMachina]

The plot and atmosphere is what set it apart from the rest. I wasn't a big fan of the combat (still can't stand it very much nowadays either) but the game had great characters and original scenarios. Unlike every other fantasy 2D RPG (excluding Planescape, the best one ever made), the idea was original.

[Mikael Grizzly]

DeusExMachina, you aren't proving anything, well, except your total lack of manners, comprehension and understanding of Fallout.

Let's vivisect your posts...

Oh Christ, its a ****ing Fallout fanboy. You people are the lowest of low.Here, instead of putting a well placed argument, regarding the plausibility of Bethesda making a worthy sequel, you resort to moron's arguments - ad personam, which do not have any place in an intelligent discussion. Apparently, you failed to learn that lesson at the age of twelve.

Of course I know what Fallout is about. I have Fallout 1 and 2. I've beaten Fallout 1 and 2.Your posts prove otherwise. I would love to know what Fallout is to you, and what it is to a majority of the fanbase, who STAY IN CONTACT with Fallout's original developers. Of course, this you call "lowest of low", well, exposes your attitutude to Fallout's design.

Please, don't even pay attention to anything regarding Fallout 3. Tell your friends too. Elitist pricks.Another ad personam argument, easily debunked because you don't have a clue, captain Clueless, as to how Fallout was made and WHY we care for the game canon's integrity. Oh, and addressing us as "elitist pricks" won't buy you any respect on this forum, most posters have grown out of the kindergarten.

Its 2006. Someone obviously glorifies the 50s if he can't accept change.Ah, proof you don't know what you are talking about. The CORE of Fallout's design, stated time and time again, was the science fiction future, as envisioned by the people of the fifities, then nuked out. It's a retro-future stylisation, Fallout 1 and 2 posseses an Art-Deco stylisation (just examine the building in the Hub, Boneyards, even cars point to this). Of course, you can be one of those kiddies that want more real-life weapons in Fallout, weapons which don't fit in, because the timeline of FO diverged from ours in the 50s. Also, you seem to be optimistic about the dumbing down and neutering Fallout, taking away what made it great.

You're gonna have to realize "DA MASSES!" are the ones who buy games. "DA MASSES" are the ones make companies profit. Why do you think Interplay even bothered making the horrible Brotherhood of Steel? They needed money. They inserted shitty music with shitty gameplay and a shitty story (seeming to think this would even sell many copies is ludicrous in itself) and slapped Fallout on it. They even shut down production on Fallout 3 to MAKE BOS.Get your act together, DEMpo. On one hand, you loathe the rape that Interplay done on Fallout with FO: POS (and to a degree, tactics), while on the other you are excusing dumbing it down for 'DA MASSES!', because they make companies profit. Am I missing something, or are you burning out those two lonely neurons in your skull?

Sure, I would've rather had Obsidian Entertainment get their hands on Fallout, but it wasn't meant to be. Bethesda's got it, they've made award winning games, they know what they're doing. I trust they'll make something worthy of the Fallout name.Err, no. Dig around the news section of NMA, and read how Roshambo explains, why Bethesda will most likely whore out Fallout, like no company has done before.

The plot and atmosphere is what set it apart from the rest. I wasn't a big fan of the combat (still can't stand it very much nowadays either) but the game had great characters and original scenarios. Unlike every other fantasy 2D RPG (excluding Planescape, the best one ever made), the idea was original.This post gives a flicker of hope, that you may yet have what it takes to understand what Fallout is about. Namely, a brain to turn on while playing.

Concluding, I state, that us, NMA members, accept gradual changes, like they were introduced in Van Buren (the TRUE Fallout 3), not perverting the SPECIAL isometric turn-based system set in a gritty, post-apocalyptic lawless wasteland, where you can do what you please (even finish the game in under thirty minutes if you know how - THAT'S non-linear game construction) into a linear, OMGSHINY game, as full of substance as a Barbie doll is on a butcher's hook.

Sincerely,

Mikael Grizzly

PS: If you are going to cry "You used arguments aimed at me!", then re-read the post, they are used in conjecture with "ad rem" arguments, and as such, don't void my credibility, because I know what I'm saying.

[Max35]

Also, consider Bethesda has bought the rights to the Star Trek games...and the bigger likelihood of it being an OB expansion.

[Silencer_NMA]

Oh Of course I know what Fallout is about. I have Fallout 1 and 2. I've beaten Fallout 1 and 2.

The question is: How many times? :D It's not as if the game was particularly difficult (or long, in case of Fallout), so really, having "beaten" it (not "completed", mind you, not "explored", "studied" nor "savoured") proves nothing.

Do you know what it's about? Given your argument, I tend to doubt that.

Please, don't even pay attention to anything regarding Fallout 3. Tell your friends too. Elitist pricks.

It's a free country, capisco?

Its 2006. Someone obviously glorifies the 50s if he can't accept change :|.

Oh, so now you know what Fallout is about and it's set in the 50s?

And how you must loathe those who play games set in a medieval settings... Aren't they backwards!

Get your facts about the Fallout setting strainght - it's a 22nd century after an alternate fifties' past. Go watch "Back to the Future II" to have dr Emmet Brown explain that to you (or is that flick not good i.e. new enough for you?)

[mortiz]

Anyone who wants Oblivion with guns just hasn't thought it through. Imagine if they turned the next Super Mario game into an FPS shoot 'em up? Would you still be able to call it a true Super Mario game with a straight face? The same with Fallout, Fallout is fallout, it's a package, and you can't rip out most of what was in Fallout and still call it Fallout. It'd be Fallout in name only and that's not what people want. The view-point, the combat, the interface and yes, the setting and story all went into giving Fallout it's charm and atmosphere. Personally I couldn't stand Oblivion, I played it for a couple of weeks after it first came out but I haven't touched it in months. If that's the same way I feel about Fallout 3 after the joy that was Fallout I will not be best pleased. OBLIVION IS NOT AN RPG!!!!! It's an action adventure game with a stat system. Things that are historically important for a CRPG, such as a dialog system and a branching story, were done terribly. Fallout is a CRPG and therefore was built from a completely different mold. Hell, Oblivion is built from a completely different mold than it’s predecessors, TES: Arena and TES: Daggerfall. If they can completely mess up their own I.P. I haven’t much hope for Fallout 3.

[Samon]

OBLIVION IS NOT AN RPG!!!!! It's an action adventure game with a stat system.

Quoted for truth 1000 times over.

[Gargantou]

Yeah, though there are mods that make it far closer to an RPG.:)

[Mikael Grizzly]

True, but it is like that situation, when you want a Chevrolet Corvette C4 in mint condition, you get a wreck and all the tools and materials necessary to make it (mostly) good, all the while people who don't know a damn about cars are "What a beautiful car", "OMFG SHINY!" etc. and all mainstream papers are also "OMFGKEWL". ;)

[Gargantou]

My fav Elder Scrolls was Daggerfall anyway.:p*Oldschool*
I still like Oblivion, even unmodded, but as has been stated, it deff. ain't an RPG, but an action game with RPG influences, heck, way back when a editor on GameSpot wrote how Oblivion was the saviour of RPGs or w/e, I wrote a lengthy response explaining how much I disagreed, I even got an answer, have it somewhere on my GMail account!:laugh:

Btw, speaking of post-apocalyptic RPGs, does anyone know wtf's up with The Fall: Last Days of Gaia? I mean is that EVER even coming out in English?:(

[Warbie]

Of course Oblivion is an rpg, how can it not be?

[SAJ]

Well , this is all getting a bit heated round here.
Is it my imagination , or did Mikael just draft in a fellow obsessive just in order to have a pop at mr Deus Ex ?

Originally Posted by mortiz
OBLIVION IS NOT AN RPG!!!!! It's an action adventure game with a stat system. Well, RPG does infact stand for "role playing game" which I believe that all the Morrowind games have been (Oblivion included) . Just because a game doesnt have a turn-based interface or isometric 2D graphics , it doesnt preclude it from being an "RPG" in the truest sense of the term.

There is loyalty to a game's spirit/character and there is blind fanatacism to presentation and interface, it seems that a lot of Fallout's fanbase falls into the latter camp.

Now I dont qualify as a real Fallout fan (having only played Fallout 1 from beginning to end over 30+ hours) but I am keen to see more post-apocalyptic RPG or rpg games on my pc, and I especially want to see it in glorious, modern, first/third person 3D.
None of which is going to please the Fallout purists, but then again I suspect that the games industry will shaft them over and over till WW6.

[Gargantou]

all the Morrowind games have been (Oblivion included)Err.. Oblivion ain't a Morrowind game, it's a Elder Scrolls game, as is Morrowind, jesus!!:laugh:

[SAJ]

Youre right, I meant Elder scrolls though.

Pedant :D

[Warbie]

Just because a game doesnt have a turn-based interface or isometric 2D graphics , it doesnt preclude it from being an "RPG" in the truest sense of the term.

I'd actually like a return to isometric rpgs. The detail in the hand drawn backgrounds fills each game with a charm and personality lacking in virtually all 3d titles. Think what could be done with today's technology - no longer stuck with a 800*600 resolution, the game could be filled with movement and lovely special effects. It could be a sprawling work of art, a moving painting. The only limitation being the skill and imagination of the artists.

I also like being the observer this view point allows. While you're still playing a game, the experience can be rather similar to reading a fantasy book - watching a story unfold rather than being in it - especialy if the dialogue is good (Planescape). This has been a personal gripe of mine with nwn and Oblivion, they look and feel more like action games - bastard children of Baldur's Gate and Final Fight.

[theGreenBunny]

RPGDot has word it won't be Fallout 3 (http://www.rpgdot.com/index.php#51093). (Gavin Carter being a Bethesda employee)

[Gargantou]

Why would it be Fallout 3 anyway..?
They've already ANNOUNCED Fallout 3..:p

[Cerpin]

I almost wish they screw up Fallout 3 to upset that guy.

[Gargantou]

I don't really think it'd upset him, he's pretty much already decided Fallout 3 is screwed, what I think would upset him is to see Fallout 3 being supersuccesfull ;)

[Cerpin]

Haha, that's probably true.

I'll sure buy it. I loved the original, the second was decent. I didn't care for tactics though.

[Mikael Grizzly]

SAJ: Fallout was presented in a SUCCESFUL way, and if it's not broken, don't fix it. Van Buren is a perfect example of how Fallout 3 should evolve - a nicely looking 3D engine with an overhead camera allows for relatively detailed graphics, without forcing the devs to work on graphics exclusively (which was propably the case with the Oblivion shitfest) and allowing more time to be spent on the setting and story.

Third person isn't necessarily a bad thing, but how would you implement a world map? Or do you like, vast, endless, nuked out wastelands which take five minutes tops to cross from one end to another? The scale of the world in the first two Fallouts was immense - it took several days to get from one city to another - and how can this be implemented in a TPP game?

I see that people that actually care about integrity of a game's world are unwelcome here. Well, let me use an analogy - Bethesda doing Fallout 3 is like id Software doing Half-Life 3 - similar, but leagues apart.

Second, I bet that Fallout 3 will be succesful - with 12 year old spoiled, dumb kiddies with complete disregard for the Fallout story, canon and earlier installments.

Oh yeah, it seems OMFGSHINY! graphics and console-crowd dumbing down is the direction the game industry should take, right?

[SAJ]

I'd actually like a return to isometric rpgs. The detail in the hand drawn backgrounds fills each game with a charm and personality lacking in virtually all 3d titles. Think what could be done with today's technology - no longer stuck with a 800*600 resolution, the game could be filled with movement and lovely special effects. It could be a sprawling work of art, a moving painting. The only limitation being the skill and imagination of the artists. But surely all that hold true in a FPS enviroment also ?
All that changes is the viewpoint of the player, the 3D enviroment would have to be built essentially the same for either fps or isometric.

I also like being the observer this view point allows. While you're still playing a game, the experience can be rather similar to reading a fantasy book - watching a story unfold rather than being in it - especialy if the dialogue is good (Planescape). This has been a personal gripe of mine with nwn and Oblivion, they look and feel more like action games - bastard children of Baldur's Gate and Final Fight. Yeah , I get what youre saying about the observer viewpoint up to a point, it reminds me of the tabletop d&d experience, but I never felt like it gelled with guns and mutants in the same way it did with swords and sorcery (IMHO) .

Ironically there is a silver lining for the Fallout Morlocks in all of this. If Bethsheda do make a Fallout game for pc and x360, then they will probably make an isomtric turn-based version of it for the mobile phone market (like they did with oblivion).
Cant wait to see the wailing and gnashing of teeth that that announcement would herald. :rolleyes:

[Cerpin]

SAJ: Fallout was presented in a SUCCESFUL way, and if it's not broken, don't fix it. Van Buren is a perfect example of how Fallout 3 should evolve - a nicely looking 3D engine with an overhead camera allows for relatively detailed graphics, without forcing the devs to work on graphics exclusively (which was propably the case with the Oblivion shitfest) and allowing more time to be spent on the setting and story.

Third person isn't necessarily a bad thing, but how would you implement a world map? Or do you like, vast, endless, nuked out wastelands which take five minutes tops to cross from one end to another? The scale of the world in the first two Fallouts was immense - it took several days to get from one city to another - and how can this be implemented in a TPP game?

I see that people that actually care about integrity of a game's world are unwelcome here. Well, let me use an analogy - Bethesda doing Fallout 3 is like id Software doing Half-Life 3 - similar, but leagues apart.

Second, I bet that Fallout 3 will be succesful - with 12 year old spoiled, dumb kiddies with complete disregard for the Fallout story, canon and earlier installments.

Oh yeah, it seems OMFGSHINY! graphics and console-crowd dumbing down is the direction the game industry should take, right?


Not to be picky, but a game studio actually has different people with different skills and abilities that work on different parts and aspects of the game. Just because Bethesda has a team working on graphics technology for two years, does not mean that they don't have teams working on the story and characters paralell to that.

It's not like they're going "Hey, our graphics suck. Let's get everyone, from accounting to script, over to the graphics department section. Big-Stein wants a re-route!".

I get what you are saying, and I too am a big fan of Fallout. Still, all manerisms of complaining and whining won't get us anywhere, because frankly, we are a minority. I loved Oblivion for what it was, and I sincerely hope Bethesta will do whatever they can to make Fallout 3 the best it can be. I've come to terms with that it won't be anything like the original or it's sequel, because there is nothing I can do about it.

[DeusExMachina]

DeusExMachina, you aren't proving anything, well, except your total lack of manners, comprehension and understanding of Fallout.

Let's vivisect your posts...

Here, instead of putting a well placed argument, regarding the plausibility of Bethesda making a worthy sequel, you resort to moron's arguments - ad personam, which do not have any place in an intelligent discussion. Apparently, you failed to learn that lesson at the age of twelve.

Your posts prove otherwise. I would love to know what Fallout is to you, and what it is to a majority of the fanbase, who STAY IN CONTACT with Fallout's original developers. Of course, this you call "lowest of low", well, exposes your attitutude to Fallout's design.

Another ad personam argument, easily debunked because you don't have a clue, captain Clueless, as to how Fallout was made and WHY we care for the game canon's integrity. Oh, and addressing us as "elitist pricks" won't buy you any respect on this forum, most posters have grown out of the kindergarten.

Ah, proof you don't know what you are talking about. The CORE of Fallout's design, stated time and time again, was the science fiction future, as envisioned by the people of the fifities, then nuked out. It's a retro-future stylisation, Fallout 1 and 2 posseses an Art-Deco stylisation (just examine the building in the Hub, Boneyards, even cars point to this). Of course, you can be one of those kiddies that want more real-life weapons in Fallout, weapons which don't fit in, because the timeline of FO diverged from ours in the 50s. Also, you seem to be optimistic about the dumbing down and neutering Fallout, taking away what made it great.

Get your act together, DEMpo. On one hand, you loathe the rape that Interplay done on Fallout with FO: POS (and to a degree, tactics), while on the other you are excusing dumbing it down for 'DA MASSES!', because they make companies profit. Am I missing something, or are you burning out those two lonely neurons in your skull?

Err, no. Dig around the news section of NMA, and read how Roshambo explains, why Bethesda will most likely whore out Fallout, like no company has done before.

This post gives a flicker of hope, that you may yet have what it takes to understand what Fallout is about. Namely, a brain to turn on while playing.

Concluding, I state, that us, NMA members, accept gradual changes, like they were introduced in Van Buren (the TRUE Fallout 3), not perverting the SPECIAL isometric turn-based system set in a gritty, post-apocalyptic lawless wasteland, where you can do what you please (even finish the game in under thirty minutes if you know how - THAT'S non-linear game construction) into a linear, OMGSHINY game, as full of substance as a Barbie doll is on a butcher's hook.

Sincerely,

Mikael Grizzly

PS: If you are going to cry "You used arguments aimed at me!", then re-read the post, they are used in conjecture with "ad rem" arguments, and as such, don't void my credibility, because I know what I'm saying.

Wow, thank you for completely judging my idea of what Fallout is without even considering I don't love Fallout myself. Yes, all I want is OMGSHINY graphics. You're absolutely right. Oh and using latin phrases, oh my. My tiny brain without brain cells can't handle it. How incredibly unnecessary. I'm in Latin III buddy, there's hundreds of better phrases you could've used. Unlike you, I'm not gonna waste my time googling for them to make my argument look more intelligent when I'm just insulting someone and please, don't act like that entire post wasn't insulting to me.
Yeah, I called you an elitist prick and a fanboy. Can't deny I didn't, so I won't. Whenever I read posts at Fallout fan sites, the fans act like a bunch of elitist pricks and fanboys. Someone comes in, "Oh wouldn't this idea be kind of cool in the Fallout setting?" Everyone attacks him. A simple "No, that doesn't really fit in with the Fallout setting" would suffice, but Fallout fans go out of there way to attack people who disagree with them. Hell, your friend Slicer is already proving me wrong. He didn't type a long post about how I am wrong and a moron and how I don't care about Fallout and why mother should've smothered me as a child.

I liked Tactics. It was a nice change of pace with the series and still fit in with the canon. Sure, it's not much of an RPG anymore, but its still fun. No, I didn't want more modern weapons included in the game. It was fine. I never supported the inclusion of more unnecessary weapons. There's 2-4 different pistols already, 5 more modern ones isn't needed. From what I remember, the Roshambo guy was incredibly disappointed with Tactics (I think the developers even went as far to put him in as an NPC). I can understand that. It wasn't traditional. The change was hard to get used to.
What do you see as a better engine for handling the Fallout franchise? Obviously, most of you don't want it using the same as Oblivion nor do you want a FPS or action/rpg. Perhaps something on the Neverwinter Nights 2 engine? Would that be something everyone could agree on? It's still isometric and tactical for the traditionalists and easier to perform actions for the new fans that come.

I'm also interested in seeing what Roshambo had to say. Do post the link.

[Mikael Grizzly]

I used two latin phrases, because we use them regularly here, during lectures on different law studies, to mark two different ways of preparing arguments. I employed them simply because they are simple, useful and straight to the point.

First, let me point out WHY Fallout: Tactics was a crap over the canon:

Exhibit 1: The intro states that the Brotherhood was started by military personnel from an underground vault. WRONG! The Brotherhood was started by captain Roger Maxson, serial number 072389 of the US Army, shortly after the exodus from Mariposa Military base, after discovering the horrid human experimentation that took place there and in fear of a nuclear strike on the facility.

Exhibit 2: Zeppelins, air machines and working vehicles. UTTERLY WRONG! In the world of Fallout, there are very little, to none working vehicles, both land and air (you encountered only one during Fallout 1 and 2, with a brief mention of steam trucks in Fallout 1).
Furthermore, the oil worldwide has run out pretty much, and no military vehicles would have been employed, because of their serious fuel consumption. That's why the Power Armour was developed - to replace conventional vehicles with walking tanks.
Additionally, the design was plain wrong. M4 Sherman in 22**? That'd make that tank... let's see... over 200 years old, ergo, a load of junk. Also, the Hummer does not fit in with Fallout, simply because it's an 80s vehicle of OUR timeline. Of those all, well, only the Scout Car fits in. Barely.

Exhibit 3: Vault 0. EXCUSE ME? Not only doesn't it fit the existing data about the Safehouse project, it also is designed in a completely different way than Vault Tec installations are.

Exhibit 4: World War II weapons SELF-EVIDENT IDIOCY. As with the Sherman, they are 200+ years old, in essence, rusted pieces of junk.

Exhibit 5: Fascist Brotherhood of Steel HUH? The Brotherhood has always been an isolationist group, and the ones exiled were those who wanted it to open up to the outside world. Would they really become fascists, ruling the terrains with an (nomen omen) iron fist?

Exhibit 6: Talking furry deathclaws. WTF? Not only were their origins changed from mutated Jason's Chameleons to amalgam of different species, they also were covered with fur (!!!) and could talk. Deathclaws are lizards. Lizards do not have fur. And they do not talk. Also, their horns were drastically altered.

Exhibit 7: Power Armours ANTLERS? Sorry, but the first games estabilished how the T-51b looked like. What are these models doing here, with antlers?

And so on...

Now for Roshambo's rants:

Oh, before I start posting, you know why we're so hostile towards newbies, who don't bother to research Fallout? Because the boards have been around for three years now, and mailing lists date even further, back to 1997. If you had been arguing the same things over and over again, you'd get frustrated.

http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32846&start=20&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=

This newstopic presents what Tim Cain said about Fallout and the upcomign Fallout 3.

Posts of note (I won't comment, as you are surely intelligent enough to draw your own conclusions):
http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=350171#350171
http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=350181#350181
http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=350207#350207
http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=350209#350209
http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=350234#350234
http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=350379#350379
http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=350402#350402
http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=350498#350498
http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=352619#352619

Next, singles released by Roshambo, the Talking Deathclaw (and Bastard Operator of Vault 13)
http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=352653#352653
http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=348220#348220
http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=348224#348224
http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=348536#348536
http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=349037#349037
http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=349352#349352
http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=352403#352403
http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=352465#352465
http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=209991#209991

And that's just a few. Before you try to dismiss Roshambo's arguments, keep in mind, that he is a hardcore game developer, with truckloads of experience.

Addendum: What engine? Source. Pure and simple.

[Warbie]

Blimey.

[DeusExMachina]

You only used two? Oh. Must've been because I was doing latin homework when I read your post :p.

Yes, I had forgotten about the talking Death Claws. That bothered me to no end. To be honest, the Brotherhood of Steel did come off to me at least as fascistic. But, those other points, well you've done your research. I won't argue with that.

I know what you mean about arguing things over and over again. As dedicated you are to Fallout, I'm quite dedicated to the Metal Gear series and proving to people that "Big Boss does not = Snake" was a horror in the summer before MGS3 came out.

I'll read what Roshambo had to say, I remember reading some of his posts when I used to lurk the NMA forums. He seemed to know what he was talking about. Obviously I'm not going to immediately dismiss what he has to say, I'm interested in seeing what he has to say.

I'm also curious as to why Source?

[Mikael Grizzly]

Source is extremely flexible it appears, and has also time and time again proved, that it can render run-down, deserted facilities (Nova Prospekt) extremely well, as well as wastelands (the random teleportation spot, where Lamarr decides to bite a crow), junk (the wrecked vehicles are priceless) as well as support an isometric view (shantytown mod). Also, it has proven itself in Vampire: Bloodlines, that it can support several RPG features (branching dialogues, character development, different weapon effects).

Oh, and I take back what I said. I admit, I overreacted and flamed you needlessly. You are a reasonable and intelligent lad, I have to say, after re-examining my priorit... your posts.

I'll cut the flaming, and may I suggest putting this thread back on it's path and discussing possible Fallout 3 designs (and their validity)?

[guchi]

I think I smell a locked thread




:(

[mortiz]

Well , this is all getting a bit heated round here.
Is it my imagination , or did Mikael just draft in a fellow obsessive just in order to have a pop at mr Deus Ex ?

Well, RPG does infact stand for "role playing game" which I believe that all the Morrowind games have been (Oblivion included) . Just because a game doesnt have a turn-based interface or isometric 2D graphics , it doesnt preclude it from being an "RPG" in the truest sense of the term.

There is loyalty to a game's spirit/character and there is blind fanatacism to presentation and interface, it seems that a lot of Fallout's fanbase falls into the latter camp.

Now I dont qualify as a real Fallout fan (having only played Fallout 1 from beginning to end over 30+ hours) but I am keen to see more post-apocalyptic RPG or rpg games on my pc, and I especially want to see it in glorious, modern, first/third person 3D.
None of which is going to please the Fallout purists, but then again I suspect that the games industry will shaft them over and over till WW6.

In Half-Life and Half-Life 2 you "Role Play" Gordon Freeman, does that make Half-Life a role-playing game? In Oblivion you can customize your character and give him or her a name but at the end the day all of the character classes are forced down the same route. You can't really "role-play" the bad guy in Oblivion. Sure, you can go on killing spree's but apart from making the game harder when the guards chase you it doesn't affect the outcome of the game. In that respect Oblivion isn't that different from Half-Life. In Fallout for example you didn't even have to face off against the end-boss "The Master". If your character was good at science you could detonate a nuclear weapon in his vault. Even if you did decide to meet him you didn't have to fight him, if you'd created an intelligent talker instead of a hardened brute you could talk him into killing himself. Does Oblivion have anywhere near that much depth when it comes to utilizing character classes? That's the amount of depth I expect from a Role Playing Game.

Again, creating a sequel to a great game but then removing elements that made it great and replacing them with your own (sub-par, if Oblivion is anything to go by) ideas seems foolish to me. It'd be like The Terminator without any violence, bad language and gore. Oh yeah, they already did that, it was called Terminator 3. If you're going to create a sequel please stay true, not just in terms of spirit and atmosphere because those things can be lifted and put into a new I.P. but to the whole package. The license Bethesda holds allows them to utilize and incorporate everything that was in Fallout, not to take advantage of that seems insane.

[B_MAN]

it has to be Fallout 3
:)

[Reginald]

I think it would be right awesome to have Fallout 3 on the Source engine kind of like Dark Messiah. Kicking enemies was too much fun. Now we can do it with guns!

[Mikael Grizzly]

Fallout 3? No.

Fallout: 2077/Before the war/Anyting? Yes. This is the only instance in which I'd accept a Fallout FPS, if it emulated the life of a single soldier during the US-China war, who progresses slowly from boot camp to cannon fodder to trooper to Power Armour soldier, with two possible endings - either fighting in China or suppressing food riots in America.

[Claw]

I trust they'll make something worthy of the Fallout name.
How exactly do you expect that to turn out? You don't mind a drastic change of the setting, which certainly won't hurt the atmosphere at all. You probably won't hold changing such a trivial thing as perspective against Bethesda, and don't seem to be discouraged by the changes to the gameplay that are to be expected. Also, I guess you won't get upset about inconsistencies in the canon either, otherwise you wouldn't trust Bethesda. And by canon, I mean Tactics and POS. I ain't sure if anyone at Bethesda even knows (or cares) there were games before that and will even try to stick to their canon. Not to mention the developers of Fallout 2 took some liberties with the canon themselves.

I can't quite see how anyone knowing Bethesda could even expect Fallout 3 to have anything in common with Fallout but the name, but I am sure it'll be worthy of that name. In a completely unrelated way. You know, sorta like Farscape was worthy of the Star Trek title. Which it didn't have, but if it had had it, it would have been worthy of it.

[Warbie]

Time of the month? :upstare:

It's time to face the fact that there will never be another Fallout game in a similar vein to the original. It's not going to happen.

Either we can moan, rose-tinted glasses superglued on, or accept that the next installment is going to be quite different and hope that it's a good game.

[SAJ]

I was going to post a few scathing replies right about now , but thinking it through I just think there's little of value to be gained by debating Fallout3's "canon" in such heated circumstances.
Instead I want to put this to anyone who is against Bethsheda making F3 ;

Surely it is the best of possible outcomes for there to be a sequel to your most precious and beloved game , on an engine that will be fully modable ?
If they use (as is most likely) the same engine as Oblivion, it will ship with a comprehensive set of tools that will allow groups and individuals to get under thehood and change literally anything that they can think of into anything that they think it should be.
That includes; plot, dialogue, monsters, weapons, sound, models, quests, landscapes, and anything else that constitutes an "RPG" of anyones description. Hell, the only reason that there isnt a "isometric 3d perspective " mod for Oblivion is that no-one has (so far) thought it worthwhile to do so, just look at the huge range of mods for Oblivion for yourselves if you dont believe me. It is, in fact a huge win-win situation for everyone, the morlocks get their previous "canon" back, and the eloy (sp) get to see what Fallout3 should really be like.
There is one proviso, the fanatics will really have to get their collective fingers out and demonstrate the same energy in all aspects of modding , as they have done with whingeing about Bethsheda's shortcomings.


Cant resist this though..............


http://www.joystiq.com/media/2006/05/Fallout-3-e32k6-poster.jpg

[Mikael Grizzly]

SAJ, do I have to go over this again? Fallout's design was succesful. When it was ripped off for FOT and FO:BOS, it was unsuccesful. Conclusion?

You say "it's a win-win situation", I say "complete disregard for the fanbase". Fallout 3 a'la Oblivion would be like a car dealer handing you a rusty wreck with a mediocre engine and all the tools you need to repair it, for the full price of an expensive car.

And, it's not "canon", it's canon. Canon was set by Fallout 1 and Fallout 2. It also set the storyline, estabilished how Fallout's architecture and technology developed, political powers (NCR, Brotherhood of Steel, Followers of the Apocalypse), FICTIONAL weapons (the real-life ones in FO2 were just... wrong.) and the general wasteland theme. FOT and FO:BOS diverged from this and they failed.

And what's an RPG? Game which focuses on storyline and character development, on immersion and consequences of your choices. Fallout has all. Morrowind and Oblivion have at best two.

Storyline? Puh-lease, save the world from evil gods/daemons/whatever. It's white-and-black, and yoy are the white. Fallout, on the other side... the final choice in front of the Master was morally ambigous - either we join the Master, and potentially lead mankind into a bright future, or we kill him and risk the final fall of civilization.
Character development? Seems like all cash went into voiceovers and a stupid "speeh" game, instead of work on the genre. Fallout... to mention a few: Overseer, Aradesh, Seth, Tandi, Killian Darkwater, Cabbot, Nicole (Followers) and Richard "Grey" Moreau.
Immersion? Yeah, a vast central province of the Empire is 16 square miles large. Laughable. Fallout... well, in Fallout you absolutely FEEL the game, it's an experience, not just a computer entertainment device.
Consequences? I have yet to see a consequence of my actions in TES III and IV. In Fallout... each choice had impact - some were minor, some were major. The consequences of your actions were evident during the endgame, when you see, what effect your deeds had on each community.

Of course, there are some, who want Fallout to be dumbed down by Bethesda to version comprehensible for their peanut sized brains. Devoid of all, what made it great - storyline, world, style, SPECIAL, setting, retrofuturism... replaced by a vast, 20x20 mile wasteland with OMFGSHINY graphics, hairy deathclaws and real-life weapons. And no, it's not Fallout.

Also, may I remind you, that Eloys were a brainless bunch of spoiled children unable to think for themselves. So much for a metaphor.

PS: I found a nice saying, by Vidken (RPG Codex), which pretty much sums up Oblivion:

"It's really more of a case of lots of people honestly believing Oblivion is important. After all, Oblivion shows us that it's possible to implement teh shinies and zero IQ gameplay into a game that contains only a pale representation of the wrong features of previous games that were labeled RPGs: Swords and stats!

As a bonus, we get such INNUVASHINS as GPS waypoints, lizards with tits, and dynamic mudcrab conversations."

[Cerpin]

While it's quite a while since I played Fallout, I remember I found the interface and some of the mechanics pretty clunky and dated.

Still, I could care less about that. The only things that matter to me are the story, characters, and setting, as well as the sublets that fall within these areas. Bethesda could make it in whatever perspective for all I care, with the flashiest graphics they possibly could come up with, and it wouldn't bother me at all as long as they nail the big three.

[Mikael Grizzly]

Which I'm not really sure they can, as Oblivion has shown how rat-ass logic they use.

- Hmmm... I'm an Emperor of an Empire that's falling apart and some people want me dead. What do I do in event of an emergency? Hmmm... let's see... oh, great! We'll dig a tunnel under the palace in the detention dungeons, with an entrance in a homicidal prisoner's cell! And whent the need for evacuation arises, I won't take elite fighters with me, but low-level noobs, so that I can get easily killed!

- Uh, sir, isn't it better to just teleport somewhere safe? The mages do it all the time.

- Shut up.

[Warbie]

It's easy to dig holes in any video game plot/story. Take Oblivion for what it is, or don't. The old Fallout is dead, though, and that's that.

[Adrik_Senturu]

I loved Fallout 1 and 2, but some of you are going to have to deal with the fact that the game is going to be changed :| So you should all just calm down and wait it out. See what happens. If it sucks, just pretend it never existed or like SAJ said hope someone mods it for the fanbase.

[Mikael Grizzly]

Someone messed their priorities up. It's not our role to make the game, it's Bethesda's role to cater to Fallout's fanbase, which was there ever since the first part was released.

Also, Fallout is not dead. Not by a long shot, as long as the fanbase and people who appreciate RPGs requiring thought survive, Fallout will live.

And to all of you saying "Get over it, it's gonna be changed", how would you react, if Valve had financial problems, sold the Half-Life licence to id Software and Half-Life: Episode Three would feature a Pamelyx Vancerson, Barney was a gay lover of Eli, who in turn would be a black gangsta with chains and stuff and Judith mysteriously changed her sex and became Julian? And the Combine was replaced by yellow aliens with rayguns from Mars? Huh? I can imagine how you would go batshit insane. This is exactly what happened to Fallout, with FOT and FO:BOS. If Bethesda wants our support, then they should do it the hard way, like Fallout 1 was done (of course with a new engine, but wrapped around SPECIAL), with dialogue trees, not some stupid minigames or wiki-style convos, immersive world, intricate plot and retrofuture stylization. Of course, that would require them to aim higher than the lowest common denominer.

In short, the burden of proof is on Bethesda. You all waited eagerly for Half-Life 2 to arrive and live up to it's predecessor. We want this too, and we have been waiting for eight years now.

[Tropico]

Mikael Grizzly
i want to have your babies.
Spot on with the answer back you up 100%.
We want a good Fallout game.

[Adrik_Senturu]

And to all of you saying "Get over it, it's gonna be changed", how would you react, if Valve had financial problems, sold the Half-Life licence to id Software and Half-Life: Episode Three would feature a Pamelyx Vancerson, Barney was a gay lover of Eli, who in turn would be a black gangsta with chains and stuff and Judith mysteriously changed her sex and became Julian? And the Combine was replaced by yellow aliens with rayguns from Mars? Huh? I can imagine how you would go batshit insane. This is exactly what happened to Fallout, with FOT and FO:BOS. If Bethesda wants our support, then they should do it the hard way, like Fallout 1 was done (of course with a new engine, but wrapped around SPECIAL), with dialogue trees, not some stupid minigames or wiki-style convos, immersive world, intricate plot and retrofuture stylization. Of course, that would require them to aim higher than the lowest common denominer.



I'd deal with it and get on with my life.

Plus you can make any game sound like complete crap with the way you just explained it. I didn't know id only made games for white rich gangsta kids :|

You know what? I hope they completely change fallout, and that its referred to as Game of the year by every major gaming publication and wins tons of awards :D

[venturon]

You know what? I hope they completely change fallout, and that its referred to as Game of the year by every major gaming publication and wins tons of awards :D

Yeah and then, like Oblivion, we can forget about it a month later because it's a shallow piece of shit.

[Adrik_Senturu]

Yeah and then, like Oblivion, we can forget about it a month later because it's a shallow piece of shit.

Not only that, but they'll release really cheap 2-5 dollar addons for us to get :D It'll be great.

(Btw, even though Oblivion doesnt live up to say Morrowind, its side quests are what really make the game and make it far from the shallow piece of shit your referring too. That being said I was still disapointed with it, but life goes on)

[VictimOfScience]

I wish that Fallout is on a highly-tweaked version of the Infinity Engine.*




*Yes, I know that is impossible, but that is what I would ideally like. :E

[Mikael Grizzly]

Adrik, hasn't it occured to you, that Bethesda Softworks is using you and other kcRPG (kiddy computer Roll Playing Games) players as an endless money spring? AND you are completely Oblivious (pun intended) to this...

Valve on the other hand, has released periodical updates and patches for free, just like all companies did until now. It's because of LtI kids, who don't remember, how good games used to be, and are attracted by SHINY things (eg. Oblivion graphics).

Also, a bit off-topic, I lament the death of mature games. Sure, some are still coming out, but not in the quantities and quality they used to. Fallout, Planescape: Torment, Homeworld, Interstate '76, Blade Runner, Command & Conquer (especially when playing the Nod storyline), Max Paynes, Battlezone, System Shocks, Deus Ex...

Nothing but OMGSHINY graphics and shallow plot and gameplay, aimed at kids (e.g. Oblivion), save for a few I'm looking forward to (Portal, HL2:EP2, BioShock and C&C3).

[Adrik_Senturu]

Adrik, hasn't it occured to you, that Bethesda Softworks is using you and other kcRPG (kiddy computer Roll Playing Games) players as an endless money spring? AND you are completely Oblivious (pun intended) to this...

Valve on the other hand, has released periodical updates and patches for free, just like all companies did until now. It's because of LtI kids, who don't remember, how good games used to be, and are attracted by SHINY things (eg. Oblivion graphics).

Also, a bit off-topic, I lament the death of mature games. Sure, some are still coming out, but not in the quantities and quality they used to. Fallout, Planescape: Torment, Homeworld, Interstate '76, Blade Runner, Command & Conquer (especially when playing the Nod storyline), Max Paynes, Battlezone, System Shocks, Deus Ex...

Nothing but OMGSHINY graphics and shallow plot and gameplay, aimed at kids (e.g. Oblivion), save for a few I'm looking forward to (Portal, HL2:EP2, BioShock and C&C3).


So because I happen to like oblivion all I like are OMGSHINY graphics? I was hyped for oblivion not because of its lol shiny graphics, but because of the games that came before it :| Unfortunately it didn't live up to my expectations, but its by no means a bad game. You seem to have some kind of grudge against Bethesda. Like I said, I hope they change the game completely. I hope it gets OMGSHINEYGRAPHICSLOL, becomes an FPS and the story is completely scrapped in favor of space gerbils.

[Mikael Grizzly]

I don't have agrudge with Bethesda, I have concerns over the quality of Fallout 3. And your poor excuse for a flame/troll is useless when thrown at me. I have used you, pardon me, to illustrate a point - anyone willing to pay ANYTHING for something that should be free (eg. the booster packs for Oblivion) should be educated, as to how things were beforehand. It doesn't matter if you pay for them regularly, or not, the notion of "cheap" booster packs is enough.

And if this is the future of Fallout, I'd rather see him resting peacefully, rather than dead-walking.

[Adrik_Senturu]

Who said I paid anything for the addon packs? (I torrented them :D)

I was joking around when I mentioned the whole cheap booster packs thing for Fallout. So you have concerns for Fallout 3, well so does any fan of a game thats going to get a sequel. Anyway im gonna stop because I already won the bet I had with my friend. I've never actually played Fallout 1 or 2 (although I've heard great things I never got around to it) this was just to guage your reaction. Hope they don't mess up your game :| (Well actually I do because you people are way too obsessed over this and need to take off your fallout pajamas and go outside or something).

[Krynn72]

God damn, this argument is still going on? Mikael you are the perfect stereotype of a fanboy. Your game is the best and every other game fails in comparison. Oblivion was a damn good game. I stopped playing it after awhile but thats because I put like 80 hours into it already. It was a good game, and you just hate it because it got popular. You make ridiculous statements about it (like anyone who likes it is a "kid"). Seriously, you need to get a life and stop taking your games so ****ing seriously.

I liked the fallout games too, all of them. However, if I ever saw you in real life arguing like this I would just leave the area because of the uber geekiness presented around you. Just relax, they are going to change the game, there is nothing you can do about it, it happens all the time. If you still feel the need to complain, email Bethesda where it might do some good.

Ok, say what you will to me now, because I wont come back. Hopefully this thread gets locked because its topic is now completely off the original poster's intents.

[Fliko]

God damn, this argument is still going on? Mikael you are the perfect stereotype of a fanboy. Your game is the best and every other game fails in comparison. Oblivion was a damn good game. I stopped playing it after awhile but thats because I put like 80 hours into it already. It was a good game, and you just hate it because it got popular. You make ridiculous statements about it (like anyone who likes it is a "kid"). Seriously, you need to get a life and stop taking your games so ****ing seriously.

I liked the fallout games too, all of them. However, if I ever saw you in real life arguing like this I would just leave the area because of the uber geekiness presented around you. Just relax, they are going to change the game, there is nothing you can do about it, it happens all the time. If you still feel the need to complain, email Bethesda where it might do some good.

Ok, say what you will to me now, because I wont come back. Hopefully this thread gets locked because its topic is now completely off the original poster's intents.

QFMT
Quoted for major truth

People make money off games, and quite frankly, most of the money from sales goes into another game.

They spend 1-2 years developing it, you beat it in 10 hours. While, $60 a game is expensive for us, considering the time put into it, it is one hell steal of a deal.

Mikael, why should they spend time into something that they don't get paid for? Thats probably the essence of why they made booster packs.

[Infoceptor]

Ok, this is what i'm getting from Grizzly.

There is nothing wrong with getting paid for something you do, however, if it is a complete piece of crap, then it should not deserve that money. The main problem comes when people buy said piece of crap and therefore, the company will continue churning crap out. The ultimate success of ANY game depends on the # of sales, period. If alot of people buy a game, then it is a success.

Do i agree? I never played any of the Fallout games. However, i found it highly distasteful of Bestheda to release their horse mods when it (imo) was clearly not worth the price. I don't know how many people bought the mods but those that did are pretty much encouraging the industry to become lazier.

I've seen too many games ruined this way. I've seen too many people continue to support bad games/sequels/companies. The funniest part is that after Gamer X buys something and moans and bitches about all the bugs/problems, they automatically buy the next sequel or expansion. You are essentially casting a ballot when you buy something. Please, please, please be selective in what you buy. It will make games better as a whole.

[Mikael Grizzly]

Infoceptor, you're my man!

Also, why am I bitching about paind booster packs? Because *everything* that's in them should have been put in game BEFORE it was released. If Valve doesn't have to charge us for patches/tuning/upgrades/whatever to games we ALREADY PAID FOR, then it means that Bethesda is RIPPING IT'S BUYERS OFF.

And Fliko, your argument is void, because Falllout 2 WAS developed in a year (released 1998, one year after Fallout (1997)) AND was a two-times larger game, with an upgraded SPECIAL system, mostly logical expansion to the storyline and new setting details, eg. Vault City, the Enclave, Sierra Army Depot, etc. This PROVES, that you don't have to concentrate on OMFGSHINY graphics and still make a fantastic game. Finishing Fallout 2 can take anywhere from one hour to sixty and more. THIS is non-linear gaming. And guess what? Since the game was complete, they didn't have to release any booster packs, because they did a good job at it, and got paid for it.
Also, it seems you don't understand the concept of employment. The programmers and designers of those booster packs are regular employees, and get paid regularly, regardless of the sales.

And Krynn misunderstood me. I have my doubts about Fallout 3 and it's quality, when it's in the hands of Bethesda. It mainly stems from the fact, that Fallout 1 and 2 provided a coherent, detailed presentaqtion of Fallout's style, gameplay, storyline and immersion. However, it's more than likely that Bethesda's going to take a dump all over the Fallout fanbase, which has been there ever since the first Fallout was released, precisely due to the fact Oblivion sold, and is a clear message "Hack'n'slash Action games with stats and speech minigames sell, while mature, highly detailed and developed games don't.". Fallout was an RPG down to the G, and still excells in my personal RPG ratings, followed by Planescape: Torment, Wasteland and Fallout 2.

Also, Krynn, since I do believe that curiosity will make you return, Bethesda censores it's Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion for negative comments about Oblivion (Summer rings any bells?). Given this, there is no point in mailing Bethesda, only to get an automated response.

Yes, I'm aware that they can change the game. Van Buren/Fallout 3 also changed the game, down right to it's mechanic, but we didn't uproar, simply bacause J.E. Sawyer KNEW what he was doing. Bethesda most likely DOES NOT. Therefore, we, as a fanbase, can complain, and WANT to be proven wrong.

Okay, I'll put it in caps for those reading imapired:

Ehem.

I WANT TO BE PROVEN WRONG, AND GET A FALLOUT 3 FROM BETHESDA SOFTWORKS THAT IS A WORTHY, LOGICAL AND IMMERSIVE CONTINUATION OF FALLOUT 1 AND FALLOUT 2, AND *NOT* OBLIVION WITH GUNS!

Thank you.

[Cerpin]

I WANT TO BE PROVEN WRONG, AND GET A FALLOUT 3 FROM BETHESDA SOFTWORKS THAT IS A WORTHY, LOGICAL AND IMMERSIVE CONTINUATION OF FALLOUT 1 AND FALLOUT 2, AND *NOT* OBLIVION WITH GUNS!

That quote gained you a lot of respect from me, and I wholeheartedly agree.

[Samon]

I love this thread.

[Shadow-warrior]

I'm totally with you Mikael.

Games thesedays are heading towards a generic soup of looking and playing all the same and its essential that some things, in this case the style and gameplay of Fallout, are retained.
The world has not moved on so much in the last 10 years that a Fallout 3 (in the style of 1 and 2) would not work and developers have to realise this.

I have no doubt Bethesda will give us Oblivion with guns, because after the hack job they made with Oblivion its obvious they don't have ability or even the staff to make a deep RPG anymore. As of now I wouldn't even trust them to make me a cup of tea. :P

The ray of hope is that eventually when photoreal graphics/havok/speedtree/hdr are the norm developers will have to start being inventive again and actually go back to making games with depth.

[CptStern]

some of you guys need to get your heads out of your ass ..what company would spend 10's of millions of dollars just to appeal to a small segment of the huying public? ..why do any of you think Oblivion made it's way to consoles at all? hardcore rpgs are dead ...get used to it or just play text based rpgs because that's as close as you're going to get

[Gargantou]

why do any of you think Oblivion made it's way to consoles at all?Because Morrowind sold better on the XB1 than on the PC, honest.

[CptStern]

yes that's my point

[VictimOfScience]

Yup, and that's why game shops are devoting almost their entire stores to console gaming. PC games usually have one little standalone shelf in the back somewhere. Console gaming is where the money is, that's all.

[Mikael Grizzly]

Therefore, Bethesda has two options:

Either make a Fallout game true to the setting etc. and create standards for console RPGs, like Fallout has set for PC RPGs.

Or, they can go dorward and dumb down Fallout, so that kiddies playing it on consoles won't have to bother themselves with tough decisions or understanding the plot.

[VictimOfScience]

Therefore, Bethesda has two options:

Either make a Fallout game true to the setting etc. and create standards for console RPGs, like Fallout has set for PC RPGs.

Or, they can go dorward and dumb down Fallout, so that kiddies playing it on consoles won't have to bother themselves with tough decisions or understanding the plot.

There were those who already tried to dumb down the Fallout series for consoles (http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/bigboxshots/9/589789_front.jpg) and the results were shitacular.

The answer? Bethesda makes a kick-ass PC game then ports it to the consoles, hopefully in a way that doesn't affect its PC development as happened with some parts of Oblivion.

[Mikael Grizzly]

VOS, that's what I would want them to do, but have serious doubts about. Of course I may be pleasantly surprised, but until I am proven wrong, I assume I'm right, bacause there are no indications, that they know what to do.

[Gargantou]

I doubt Fallout would set a new standard for console RPGs anyway, Fallout 1 didn't really set a new standard either imo, but it certainly influenced a few RPGs in terms of style etc I don't think you can really say it set a new standard.. But to each man his own I guess.:p
And still on the topic of Fallout, how many of you have played Wasteland?:D That game rocked :)

[CptStern]

Therefore, Bethesda has two options:

Either make a Fallout game true to the setting etc. and create standards for console RPGs, like Fallout has set for PC RPGs.

Or, they can go dorward and dumb down Fallout, so that kiddies playing it on consoles won't have to bother themselves with tough decisions or understanding the plot.

but that appeals to a wider audience = more sales ...regretful but that's the state of the industry ..pc games are just a niche market now and it's not worth investing millions unless you're sure of a large enough audience so that you dont lose your shirt in the process ..we can bitch and moan all we want but the reality is that the majority of pc gamers dont give two shits about quality ...it's graphics over gameplay every time ..they'd much rather buy the next iteration of the battlefield series than give games that perhaps push the envelope a chance


anyone surprised by the console-fication of Oblivion really needs to pay more attention to the industry ..saw that coming from a country mile and I've never played any of the elder scrolls series

[Mikael Grizzly]

Bitching is important. It's a means to express your dissatisfaction, and be vocal about it. Also, I doubt the PC is a niche market, seeing how many millions are invested and in circulation, not to mention that Half-Lives are manufactured first for PCs and then ported.

Also, I hope that as the current kiddie gamers mature, they might just realize the wrong of their ways and start bitching like us.

And for one thing... people who were bitching in the past were behind the greatest events... Alexander the Great propably bitched about Macedony being the underdog of ancient Greece. The French people bitched about inequality and brought about the French Revolution. We bitch now and maybe, just, maybe, we can make a difference.

Oh, I played Wasteland... especially I loved the old installation... and the sound of metal on metal grinding in the darkness... fellow Ranger :)

[CptStern]

Bitching is important. It's a means to express your dissatisfaction, and be vocal about it. Also, I doubt the PC is a niche market, seeing how many millions are invested and in circulation,

in comparison to the console market yes we are ..just take a look on any major gaming site, walk into any gaming store, and it's the same scenario: pc market is shrinking whereas the console market is growing ...Half life is the exception certainly not the rule


not to mention that Half-Lives are manufactured first for PCs and then ported.

only because Valve wants it that way ..do you really think MS would have allowed Steam to be the distribution method for a console version of HL2 had it been the main platform?

Also, I hope that as the current kiddie gamers mature, they might just realize the wrong of their ways and start bitching like us.

probably not, I've been playing games for close to 2 decades ..if anything games are becoming more watered down and less appealing to anyone looking for something with depth ..of course there are the exceptions but they rarely sell as much as the next iteration of Madden or ghost recon etc

actually ghost recon is a prefect example of the consolefication of gaming ..it started as strategic ..now it's pretty mcu run and gun with pretty explosions

And for one thing... people who were bitching in the past were behind the greatest events... Alexander the Great propably bitched about Macedony being the underdog of ancient Greece. The French people bitched about inequality and brought about the French Revolution. We bitch now and maybe, just, maybe, we can make a difference.

I highly doubt it ..you seem to forget that many pc gamers are also console gamers ..besides gamers have no voice whatsoever ..we couldnt muster up enough of a voice to combat Jack thompson I dont see how we could collectively turn gaming on it's ear ..wishful thinking but in depth complex gaming with steep learning curves is all but dead ..the market is already a gamble why make it more risky but appealing to a limited share of that audience? ...the genre (crpg) will survive ..as a niche market ..if and when a developer/publisher is willing to take a gamble


btw are you getting Gothic 3?

[Mikael Grizzly]

After the next upgrade, yes. My brother is a Gothic fanboy, I'm "just" a fan.

I agree with your post, though what put me off was the "ass->head" comment. But I'm optimistic - sooner or later the market will be full of repetitive titles, and to be succesful, a breakthrough would have to be made - in this case, a return to the roots.

Also, in my opinion consoles won't be as succesful as PCs are in the longer run (20 years, maybe?), since PCs are much more versatile, and can support truly better graphics than most console titles (consoles either cheat the eye, or limit the gaming environment, while PCs posess much more room for expansion. There was a nice quote - when working on a console, you have to consider adding a tree, and it's impact on the framerate. On PC you can slap a whole forest there.

Also, the market is not that bleak, as it seems. Several promising titles came/will come out: Bioshock, Half-Life 2: Episode Two, Defcon, Portal, Tiberium Wars (though with some reserve), Gothic 3... as long as we have independent developers, and educate younger gamers, we might stand a chance...

[Warbie]

anyone surprised by the console-fication of Oblivion really needs to pay more attention to the industry ..saw that coming from a country mile and I've never played any of the elder scrolls series

I tend to agree, but feel too much fuss has been made over Oblivion. I've enjoyed the game for what it is (I resent being called a kiddy gamer btw, Grizzly), and don't feel it's been dumbed downed in comparison to previous titles in the series. Much of this ill favour exists purely because it appeared on the 360. I'd happily bet that had Oblivion been a pc exclusive it would have been better received around here. More a case of Halo syndrome than 'consolized'.

I also want a return to games like Planescape Torment and Baldur's Gate as much as anyone. For what seems like years i've been singing their praises and moaning about the current state of pc gaming - and am often accused of being a console fanboy as a result. The truth is i'm a pc gamer at heart, but a disgruntled one (why else do I hang around here with you mofos? ;))

We have to accept that the next Fallout will be a new take on the series, though, and Bethesda are going to make it as they see fitt, which is as it should be. As soon as a developer tries to emulate the efforts of another the end product will always be a crock. Stick to the setting/plot/story if possible, but always do your own thing.

Just as Shadow of the Colossus and Bioshock are spiritual successors to Ico and System Shock, it might be better thinking of Fallout 3 as Fallout with a new slant. The die hard fans won't be happy, but let's face it, they'll be moaning over any difference.

[CptStern]

After the next upgrade, yes. My brother is a Gothic fanboy, I'm "just" a fan.

I agree with your post, though what put me off was the "ass->head" comment.

well I just thought some people were being a little narrow minded and need a kick in the ass ;) ..no offense meant

But I'm optimistic - sooner or later the market will be full of repetitive titles, and to be succesful, a breakthrough would have to be made - in this case, a return to the roots.

the market is already saturated with repetative titles ..and they're the ones that sell the most ..Madden is what? on it's 10th incarnation? Call of Duty 2 sold more than any other game for xbox360 ..it also had the most sales in terms of micrtransactions ..now that game can be purchased for pc for less money and with the same or better visuals ..yet many pc gamers ignored the game ..while it had huge success on the 360

Also, in my opinion consoles won't be as succesful as PCs are in the longer run (20 years, maybe?), since PCs are much more versatile,

not really fair because a pc's sole reason for being isnt for playing games...consoles have already surpassed pc games in terms of sales ..and even traditional companies are moving away from pc development and focusing on console games ..hell even the DS lite gets more attention than the pc ..games are far cheaper to produce therefore there's a much larger profit margin ..plus they can churn them out in much less time ...same goes with console games: cheaper, easier, already installed base = more profit

the biggest problem is the growth of the industry itself ..if they want to expand their audience they need to appeal to casual/first time gamers


and can support truly better graphics than most console titles (consoles either cheat the eye, or limit the gaming environment, while PCs posess much more room for expansion. There was a nice quote - when working on a console, you have to consider adding a tree, and it's impact on the framerate. On PC you can slap a whole forest there.

yes but providing your audience has the latest greatest gear ..not everyone has a top of the line graphics card ..most pcs have onboard video cards ..that cuts off most casual gamers right there ..why spend an additional $300 on a video card when you could just buy a 360 and not have to worry whether 6 months down the road the latest greatest pc game wont run on your system?


btw I'm mostly playing Devil's advocate here ..I prefer pc over console anyday much for the reasons you've stated ..but I'm not going to fool myself into thinking mature, intelligent gaming is going to go mainstream ..not when the bulk of the hardcore pc community is more concerned about graphics than gameplay

Also, the market is not that bleak, as it seems. Several promising titles came/will come out: Bioshock, Half-Life 2: Episode Two, Defcon, Portal, Tiberium Wars (though with some reserve), Gothic 3... as long as we have independent developers, and educate younger gamers, we might stand a chance...

all niche titles that will appeal to specific types of gamers ..there's no way Bioshock will outsell Call of Duty 2 ..even though it seems to be head and shoulders above CoD2 in terms of creativity/innovative

oh and Halflife2 was a failure on the xbox ..it sold peanuts in comparison to the pc version

[mortiz]

The market for good RPG's isn't dead, developers are simply neglecting to tap into it. There's no hiding the fact that good CRPG's are a difficult thing to accomplish. Developers now feel that if they can't release some "Wikid kewl!!" screenshots that'll get pasted all over the internets and in gaming magazines their game will not sell. Rubbish. They need the proper marketing for their game but there is a market out there looking for CRPG's to play. Most developers are simply to lazy to invest a lot of time and energy into a CRPG when the returns probably won't exceed that of "Another War Game CXIVX". The gaming industry at large has become more about business and less about artistic integrity. Independent Development is where it's at, which is one area the PC excels over all of the major consoles, it's very easy to get your own team together and develop your vision on a PC, not so on a console through a combination of expensive dev kits and restrictions the console makers put on games sold.

[CptStern]

independents cant compete with $10 million dollar budgets (that's actually low end)

[Max35]

I'm sure Valve is the exception to that rule.

[Shadow-warrior]

independents cant compete with $10 million dollar budgets (that's actually low end)

Thing is, most of that '$10' million is spent on flashy graphics, fancy voice overs, speedtree/havok licenses and all the other irrelevant crap that adds nothing to a decent RPG.

Good stories and deep interesting games cost next to nothing to make in comparison and developers need to understand theres still a huge market of mature gamers out there who want more than the superficial. People who grew up on computer games in the 80s and 90s are still there.

Question is, is it really the consumer who is demanding this pointless shiny graphics/hdr/havok/speedtree crap or is it the developers pushing it on us because they know it takes less effort than actually making a deep game.

[mortiz]

independents cant compete with $10 million dollar budgets (that's actually low end)

With services like STEAM they nearly can. The only issue in the past with independent development was distribution. With the increase in broadband speeds and the like online distribution is becoming a real outlet for independent developers.

[CptStern]

but they still dont have the $10 million budget ..if they did they might be less inclined to gamble that on a game that has limited appeal

I'm interested in seeing unit sales on steam ..specifically for games like psychonauts which did poorly at retail

[Max35]

Correction, successful independant developers have this type of budget. However, this certain type of developer is slowly becoming extinct.

[CptStern]

no, few developers pony up the cash for development ..that's what publishers are for

[DeusExMachina]

I think it's pretty fair to say great games rarely ever sell well. Psychonauts being a good example.

[Max35]

no, few developers pony up the cash for development ..that's what publishers are for

I meant successful **independant** developers, my mistake. Valve, for example. And yeah, I know what publishers are for.

[CptStern]

hehe Valve is the only example ..and even they needed EA to distribute HL2 at retail ..part of each unit sale went to EA

[JoeCLawrence]

I was going to read this thread, but after the first page I realized it's probably devolved into fanboy argueing. Personally, I hope its Fallout 3 (we all know its in development but has it really been "announced"?) because it sounds like an interesting concept, and I love a good RPG. And remember people, Bethesda wouldn't acquire a liscense just to piss off the built in player base (after all they're the only real good reason to buy a lisence) by betraying the games original concept, they can come up with their own ideas for crap like that. I imagine there are some big Fallout fans at Bethesda that moved this forward in the first place, and are as eager to make a true Fallout sequel as you guys are to play it. And is it still possible to get Fallout or its sequel (legally)? I never played it, but it sounds like It'd be worth playing.

[DeusExMachina]

Amazon's really the last place to get them. It's cheap though.

[Mikael Grizzly]

Joe, a man can dream. Bethesda has never acquired a licence with such tradition and mutilation with it. It's like taking an ingenious, but abused child with no prior experience with dealing with geniuses.

Also, if you can lay your hands down on Fallout, or a collection of Fallout titles, (Fallout: What it is, Fallout 2: Expanded, but weaker sequel, Fallout: Tactics: What Fallout is NOT.) by all means, get it. Also, when you are done with your first playthrough, play again, or visit NMA, but for God's sake, deeply think and search the forums before you post.

Also, I love this thread. Lots of flames, lots of content, lots of arguing and lots of fun. Also, I find it interesting, how a thread about Bethesda announcing a title turns into a thread about fanboyism and Fallout, and later into an argument over quality of videogames. Ahhh, forums, I love ye'.

Also, this might sound weird, but even though several of you give me a hard time, I love you all. ;)

Okay, enough with the cuddles, bring on fresh meat!

[Adrik_Senturu]

Also, I love this thread. Lots of flames, lots of content, lots of arguing and lots of fun. Also, I find it interesting, how a thread about Bethesda announcing a title turns into a thread about fanboyism and Fallout, and later into an argument over quality of videogames. Ahhh, forums, I love ye'.

No. Oblivion with guns in a post-apocalyptic environment with Fallout plotline? Yes please.

DeusExMachine, you have just earned the title of "lowest common denominator of the gaming industry" (TM). Do you have any idea what Fallout is about? IT was never about OMGSHINORZ graphics, not about piss-poor "Rapist" AI, not about miniature largest state in the TES universe, not about voiceovers, not about five hundred non-important face tweaks.

Fallout was about the 50s retrofuture feel, it posessed SPECIAL, isometric view, intricate dialogues, immersive and developed world, moral ambiguities, large and profesionally designed plot, believeable characters... it was all Oblivion is not.

And listen to yourself... Oblivion with Guns? Well, I extend an official invitation to you to visit our boards (No Mutants Allowed (http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/index.php)), and state your claim that "Fallout 3 as Oblivion with guns is OMGKEWL!". so that we can carve into your little skull, because I doubt a brain exists there, WHAT Fallout is and WHY we fear that Bethesda will rape it. Or, you might exercise those two neurons and research WHAT made Fallout so great, though I hop... err... fear the strain might kill you.

Thank you for setting the lowest standards for a forum user.

Yeah, I wonder how it happened :rolleyes:

[mortiz]

You don't need a $10 million dollar budget to make a game. Where that money is spent is on stuff that doesn't actually affect gameplay, such as graphics, and most of the time physics (very few games use physics in a way that actually affects how the game plays). I've seen games that look absolutely brilliant but have very simplistic gameplay, DooM 3 and the Call of Duty games for example. Now if you spend less cash and time on the graphics and more on making the game new and fun then that $10 million budget required drops to only a fraction of that. The casual market out there that will spend hours upon hours playing web-based games have proven that there is a market out there for games that don't look absolutely cutting-edge. In fact, it's the hardcore market with the shredder PC's and the ones who were waiting inline to buy the XBox 360 on it's first day that are demanding cutting edge graphics, and that market is pretty small in comparison. Broadband isn't only something for the hardcore gamers or university's anymore, your average jo has broadband in his house now. If you can let those people know that they can download an entire game for A) A cheaper price than they'd pay in the shops and in B) less time than it would take to drive down to the shops and market correctly to the people who want a game for their kids or just want something to kill a few hours then you can easily make all of your money back and make even make a good profit, which is a rare thing in the industry.

Not only casual games will fit into this model either. There are enough hardcore gamers that will buy into innovative games, such as what Introversion are doing or Katamari Damacy. They're people who want different over photo-realistic graphics stuck onto the same gameplay. If you filter out all of the casual gamers who a developer can market to their game as fun and new, and then you filter out all of hardcore gamers who will have prior knowledge of a new and innovative game the number of people left who only want "OMg liek sweet grafix lol!" don't actually number that many.

Of course we're not their yet, but in a few years I'm hoping that's where we'll be.

[Gargantou]

mortiz, you're forgetting one thing, voice actors, recording studios and the equipment that comes with it, most games these days use voice acting, and it also costs a ton of money.

One thing that annoys me is that I've seen many people that think that just because 'I' am a young gamer, it means I'm a gfxwhore, that really ticks me off, I play C64, Atari ST, Amiga, DOS all regulary, although with emulators, and I play far more old 'ugly' games than modern ones, because I've realized that actual gameplay, was generally alot better back in the day, I am a all-in-all guy though, I bought Doom 3(Although I regret it somewhat) and CoD1+UO, but I've also bought 10(some even older) year old games over ebay and such.

[Mikael Grizzly]

Adrik, just because I say I love you all, that doesn't mean I won't be giving you a hard time.

You ain't gonna get laid by me, son :p

[VictimOfScience]

I play C64, Atari ST, Amiga, DOS all regulary, although with emulators, and I play far more old 'ugly' games than modern ones, because I've realized that actual gameplay, was generally alot better back in the day, I am a all-in-all guy though,
I love it! Me too! I actually have my Amiga 500 and C64C hooked up right now and they work great! (The emulators are great too like you said.) Most gamers fo today will not have the same amount of respect for gameplay that we did when we went through the paces of development in the 80s and 90s. Great times and I am so glad I was there for them. :cheers:

I bought Doom 3(Although I regret it somewhat)
The only reason Doom3 is still on my PC is The Dark Mod (http://www.mindplaces.com/darkmod/). I can't wait!!!

[Meteor_of_War]

I know it's not Nov. 1st yet, but Bethesda recently (yesterday I think) announced a new game - Rogue Warrior (http://www.bethsoft.com/news/pressrelease_102706.htm). Can anyone confirm if this was the game they were talking about? As much as I'd love to hear new info on Fallout 3, I'm more inclined to think the announced game wouldnt be Fallout 3 since I'm pretty sure it's already been "announced" months ago when we first heard Bethesda say they bought the rights to it and were planning to start development after completion of Oblivion.

[Max35]

I know it's not Nov. 1st yet, but Bethesda recently (yesterday I think) announced a new game - Rogue Warrior (http://www.bethsoft.com/news/pressrelease_102706.htm). Can anyone confirm if this was the game they were talking about? As much as I'd love to hear new info on Fallout 3, I'm more inclined to think the announced game wouldnt be Fallout 3 since I'm pretty sure it's already been "announced" months ago when we first heard Bethesda say they bought the rights to it and were planning to start development after completion of Oblivion.

You know, that's what I was thinking. I mean, we already know they are developing it. I don't see why they would re-announce it. Remember, I'm pretty sure Bethesda said they would announce a new game. Fallout 3 isn't new, they already announced development on it. I'm not for sure if they gave an official press release on it or not. Anyway, I'm betting an Oblivion expansion (they'd be fools not to) or another Star Trek Game.

[Thunderclap]

http://www.bethsoft.com/news/pressrelease_102706.htm

What the piking hell? Is this the new game? O_o

[Cole]

The only reason Doom3 is still on my PC is The Dark Mod. I can't wait!!!
That looks very intresting. I really want a neat stealth game. Actually a Tenchu style game would be god to me. I haven't played one since Stealth Assassins on the PS1.

[Leviticus]

I love Fallout, and I wish for the second option, however my experience tells me we will get a hollow shell a'la Oblivion.

Bethesda/Oblivion fanboys need not reply.

Hopefully Bethesda has learned some lessons with Oblivion. I think they went in the right direction by trying to make an RPG more about playing the game than min-maxing characters and pre-planning stat allocation. Where they failed was by cutting out what makes RPGs have long term endearment in the first place. Oh, yeah, and the combat sucked.

If Fallout 3 plays like a (Realistic) first person shooter but has depth like an RPG I'de be a happy man. In my opinion if RPGs are going to survive the mainstream they need to shed some the old pen'n'paper artifacts and focus more on gameplay and, yes, presentation.

[Mikael Grizzly]

Fallout is a perfect example of mixing gameplay, stylistic presentation and immersion while staying true to the old P&P rules.

So I don't get your point. RPGs REQUIRE an isometric view, because they are always about strategic planning of the fight, not mind-numbing clickfests like Diablo or Oblivion (which are action adventure games with RPG elements, not cRPGs).

[Leviticus]

So I don't get your point. RPGs REQUIRE an isometric view, because they are always about strategic planning of the fight, not mind-numbing clickfests like Diablo or Oblivion (which are action adventure games with RPG elements, not cRPGs).

Interesting. I always thought RPG stood for "Role-playing Game", where-as RTS stood for "Real Time Strategy", which sounds a lot like what you are describing. The term "RPG" is very loose, and RPG elements can be applied to pretty much anything. Just because your favorite RPGs happen to have an isometric view and utilize what you consider strategic gameplay others games in the genre are not suddenly kicked out of the RPG club. Seems a little silly to me that you think they would be.

Granted, Diablo II is more about combat than developing a persona and character. Icewind Dale, too, plays at times more like a strategy game. Oblivion sheds a lot of the old school mechanics (For better or worse). But, really, it is the diversity and the willingness of designers to step outside of boundaries that makes games interesting. If every game played only how purists wanted them to, then gaming would be both boring and unsuccesful.

By the way, "Action Adventure" is not a genre.

[Max35]

This is from the "No Mutants Allowed" FO3 fansite, in the FAQ


Why announce Fallout 3, without any plans ?
Actually the press release was announcing that Bethesda had secured the rights to create Fallout 3 and subsequent sequels. The press release does not announce the game nor any specifics about it -- it's a business announcement. And it had to be made, because it is important and affects more than one company.

This information is all brand-new. It's something that only became known to many of us at Bethesda a couple weeks ago, and only became official last week. We have also been very busy working on non-Fallout related projects. Any thought that has gone into what a Fallout 3 developed by Bethesda Softworks is minimal at best, and it is going to be quite some time before you hear anything else about it, because quite frankly we haven't even had a CHANCE to think much about what we're going to do with this new franchise.

Anything that's said about the game now -- features, game systems, camera style, gameplay style, platforms, etc. -- is 100% speculation. NO DECISIONS HAVE BEEN MADE. So have patience. As soon as we know more and are prepared to make a detailed unveiling, we will let you know. But don't be surprised if that day is a ways off.


As that quote clearly states, the announcement's purpose was to let people know that they had acquired the license to Fallout franchise. *The press release does not announce the game, it's a business announcement*

So, I've revised my opinion. I think there is a high likelihood that the announcement on Nov 1st will be Fallout 3. In fact, I really hope it is.

[Unfocused]

So, what what was the announcement?

[theGreenBunny]

Rogue Warrior (http://bethsoft.com/games/games_roguewarrior.html), if I'm not mistaken. They're publishing it (not developing, that's one Zombie Studios).

[Shadow-warrior]

I love it! Me too! I actually have my Amiga 500 and C64C hooked up right now and they work great! (The emulators are great too like you said.) Most gamers fo today will not have the same amount of respect for gameplay that we did when we went through the paces of development in the 80s and 90s. Great times and I am so glad I was there for them. :cheers:


:cheers: HERE, HERE.

I've seen the development of games all the way from Pong on an Atari to now and I'm still only 29! :laugh:

You really appeciate where games were and where they are now and its why many of us guys get so pissed off at the dumbing down of modern games.

[Unfocused]

Rogue Warrior (http://bethsoft.com/games/games_roguewarrior.html), if I'm not mistaken. They're publishing it (not developing, that's one Zombie Studios).

Oh. ...wow, I guess.