Any boss fight needed in Ep:2?

[bbson john]

One of the points which I think the fight in HL is better than HL2 is that there are a decent boss at the end of the HL and several minor bosses through out the game. For example, the Tentacles in blast pit, the Gonarch in Xen and the Geneworm in the opposing Boss. Those can be a unforgettable ful fight is more elements and better graphics are used. However, in HL2, there is nothing other than the weak striders and gunships, or an antlion guard. They are boss fight technically. A normal game player like I cannot actually feel I am fighting against a invincible monstrosity.

A true boss fight is a battle in which we have to fight hard, and can barely win the game. I will not call the "strider" and the "gunship" is a true boss fight since they are far too easy, and more importantly, no impressive graphic or grand appearance/action/death scene on them.

In my opinion, what a boss fight need is: 1, The boss is tough. 2, A grand emergence scene so we can feel the stress. 3, A large variety way to atack the boss. Like we can release heavy hanging objects and let them compress crush, damaging the boss, or releasing liquid gas to freeze the box. 4, A powerful boss that it will destroy the structures, props arround the site by both physical impact and long range attack. 5, A grand death scene that we can enjoy the graphics of the boss' death and gain the feeling of accomplishment. 6: The most important thing, an unique monster, or machine.

Do you agree with me that a boss fight is need in Ep:2?

[Absinthe]

I'd like boss fights if they're kept interesting, like the tentacles in HL1. Something that doesn't require brute firepower, but a more interesting approach.

[Loke]

I'd like boss fights if they're kept interesting, like the tentacles in HL1. Something that doesn't require brute firepower, but a more interesting approach.

My thoughts exactly.

[$kelet0r]

personally I think boss fights are dead - only nostalgia makes people ask for them even when they would do nothing for a game

[Oppressor]

personally I think boss fights are dead - only nostalgia makes people ask for them even when they would do nothing for a game

Agreed. Boss battles in the old terms is quite dead

[Samon]

I think Half-life 2 functions, and benefits wonderfully without some hulking 'grand scale' boss to come along and break the immersion.

[Inyssius Grey]

The Antlion King, which was cut from HL2, is now (or so I hear) going to be in Ep. 2...

In Raising the Bar they say that they made a scale model of the Antlion King, and it was so large that Gordon was stuck between its toes for scale, so if you want a huge boss fight, you may be in luck.

[Absinthe]

To the people who don't want boss fights:

Do you not want boss fights period or do you just not want some generic behemoth with one million HP? Because the tentacles in HL1 never broke immersion for me and were enjoyable to defeat.

[Samon]

I don't want the generic behemoth with the one million HP and requiring me up pump him full of lead. Because that is something I cannot stand. Maybe in the old Quake era, but not anymore. I didn't consider the tentacle a boss, to be honest. Blast Pit and Direct Intervention are to me, one in the same. You've a goal for the chapter, and to solve it you need to work around it - it's essentially the same gameplay mechanic.
But I don't mind a boss wherein you need to engage brain in order to take it out...not at all. I just don't want it to be thrown in there for the sheer sake of it. I consider Dark Energy a boss fight in a sense - where the battle is practical in that you need to stop Breen from escaping. Valve seem to aim for a more practical way of doing things and I really like that. I don't want to see another Nihilanth.

[Przemek]

I loved bossfights in Quake. You didn't shoot them, you had to use the environment to defeat them. And the final boss didn't even do anything to hurt you ;)

[Samon]

Quake 4?

[TheGMan.]

bbs_john, what level are you playing on with "weak striders", I found them a bitch to kill, not unless they were distracted..

But yeah, I would like a boss. But I don't want all my ammo gone, and have 5 percent health left when I finish killing the thing.

[Przemek]

Quake 4?
What? Where? No, I was writing about Quake 1 :)

Anyway, I like the no bosses approach in games. To be more precise, I don't like a behemoth with one million HP, like Absinthe said.

[A True Canadian]

The Antlion King, which was cut from HL2, is now (or so I hear) going to be in Ep. 2...

In Raising the Bar they say that they made a scale model of the Antlion King, and it was so large that Gordon was stuck between its toes for scale, so if you want a huge boss fight, you may be in luck.

The Antlion King is so huge that it almost seems impossible that he would be hiding underground with the other Antlions. And even if he is, can you imagine the size of the tunnels this thing would make? :O

In fact the Antlion King is so huge that I doubt he would be included in future episodes. How do you explain something that massive wandering around? In fact I seriously doubt that the tremors that the Combine install to keep the Antlions at bay would have any effect on something this big. How does one explain how he hasn't simply ventured into a place like City 17 or Nova Prospekt already? How would you effectively stop something that massive?

It's difficult questions like this that make me think that the Antlion King that we've read about in Raising the Bar won't see the light of day in the gaming universe, much like his other failed companions, the Hydra and the Cremator.

That being said, it looks like we will be working our way towards an Antlion boss of some kind. The trailers show caves infested with Antlions, which leads me to believe that we're going to take out whatever it is that's spawning these bugs. Much like taking out the queen of a hive, eliminating the source of the swarm could be practical in terms of plot.

[Max35]

Yes, they will have to take out the Antlion swarm. They are not in the safe confines of City 17 anymore. As for the boss: I think having a boss encounter would be nice, not necessarily a boss battle. If anyone remembers Stonekeep, in one of the deep mine levels there was an enormous dragon who you had to work around and eventually free in order to proceed. Something along those lines I would be interested in.

[ríomhaire]

I'd like a boss similar to a garg. There's a puzzel you can do do defeat it, or you can pour ammo into it. ^_^

[Loke]

I'd like a boss similar to a garg. There's a puzzel you can do do defeat it, or you can pour ammo into it. ^_^

I never liked the fact that you could kill that Garg using explosives. It was hilarious to walk in the corridors in "Power Up" while hearing the Garg roars and stomping when you, in fact, killed it. Eh?

[xirow]

I was very glad Half-Life 2 didn’t end with a final boss battle. But I did miss an enemy like Tentacle. I want a big enemy which has to be killed in an alternative manner / by some kind of great puzzle.

[MorganFreeman911]

Well, technicially, HL2 did end with a Gigantic Boss, the Reactor.

[Darkside55]

I've already discussed (at great, terrible, don't-make-me-read-anymore length) the benefits boss battles still provide in games, so I won't go into that again. Suffice to say that boss battles aren't bygones of an ancient era just yet.

Because of the underground sections there is a high possibility of seeing the antlion king. I would be surprised if we didn't see him, and a little disappointed.

Canadian, who says the king has to "wander around?" It's so big that it probably can't even move around anymore, except perhaps to swipe at things or crane its long neck around to bite. It probably just sits in a "nest" all day, giving out pheromone orders.

[Que-Ever]

I don't want the generic behemoth with the one million HP and requiring me up pump him full of lead. Because that is something I cannot stand. Maybe in the old Quake era, but not anymore. I didn't consider the tentacle a boss, to be honest. Blast Pit and Direct Intervention are to me, one in the same. You've a goal for the chapter, and to solve it you need to work around it - it's essentially the same gameplay mechanic.
But I don't mind a boss wherein you need to engage brain in order to take it out...not at all. I just don't want it to be thrown in there for the sheer sake of it. I consider Dark Energy a boss fight in a sense - where the battle is practical in that you need to stop Breen from escaping. Valve seem to aim for a more practical way of doing things and I really like that. I don't want to see another Nihilanth.

This is why we won't ever see shepard again. There probably won't be any more expansions where you play as another character, because apaprently the episodes are half-life 3, and it should definitely be FINAL, nothing more after it. So the only other alternatives would be either putting him in another game not raely connected to half-life canon (sort of like if he's the guy in portal) so it wouldn't matter anyway, or, to put him in a game as an npc or enemy or what have you. Having him as a npc, as a rebel or something wouldn't work story wise, so he would have to be an enemy that you fight and kill. But what would he be? Just a random guy in a gasmask and kevlar vest, suddenly thrown in with the combine? No, that would make no sense. So what, put him in as a boss? A human, being human sized and using human weapons, but with 200 times more health than you? That would be rediculous. Shepard is out of the half-life picture. Permanently.

[Flyingdebris]

I must say i actually miss boss fights, or rather those really tough situations that require extra thought and skill.

Antlion Guards were okay i guess, but they took way too much of a beating beyond the point of suspension of disbelief. Meanwhile Striders and Gunships were pretty much pushovers since you almost always had a infinite rocket box handy.

I'd like to see some option to make them vulnerable to regular weapons and get rid of the of the inf. rpg ammo boxes. While also making them use their beam cannons more often.

The last fight in Ep1 against the railyard strider. There was no real challenge there, you just had to avoid its direct attention until you got to the rocket box. Then the battle was pretty much over.

It was pretty much very anti-climactic.

How i would've done it would be to add a second strider, have the striders shoot you with the beam cannons instead of just a few specific objects, reduce the amount of permanent cover the player has acess to. Litter around a few supply boxes with rockets and only place a rocket box in a far off hard to reach area. When the 1st strider goes down, bring in an apc or a gunship to make things difficult. Also add a steady flow of manhacks to keep the player busy should the player attempt to camp.

And make it so that even when Alyx finally comes out and you hop on the train, there are still a few enemies shooting at you.

There's just not enough super hard fights in halflife

[smwScott]

This is why we won't ever see shepard again. There probably won't be any more expansions where you play as another character, because apaprently the episodes are half-life 3, and it should definitely be FINAL, nothing more after it. So the only other alternatives would be either putting him in another game not raely connected to half-life canon (sort of like if he's the guy in portal) so it wouldn't matter anyway, or, to put him in a game as an npc or enemy or what have you. Having him as a npc, as a rebel or something wouldn't work story wise, so he would have to be an enemy that you fight and kill. But what would he be? Just a random guy in a gasmask and kevlar vest, suddenly thrown in with the combine? No, that would make no sense. So what, put him in as a boss? A human, being human sized and using human weapons, but with 200 times more health than you? That would be rediculous. Shepard is out of the half-life picture. Permanently.

The gigantic, gaping hole in this logic is that the episodes are most certainly not going to be the end of the HL franchise. Whether or not we'll ever play as another character besides Gordon again is up for question though.

[CrazyHarij]

Boss fights ****ing rule. If it's one thing that shouldn't go away for the sake of realism in any game, it's boss fights.

[bbson john]

An exciting boss fight must include the following elements:

1. You can choose either damage the boss with your weapons or damage it with other methods.

2. You can utilize the environments to damage the boss. So as the boss can do it to you. And there can be lots of ways that the boss can hit you, both directly and indirectly.

3. Minor puzzle can be included. But not a big and over-complicated one.

I real boss will not be defeated by a single switch. I don't want any clicking "test fire" or pushing "flush toxic waste" to kill the boss instantly. Since this can be a puzzle, but not a true boss fight. Using a large variety of dynamic environments to physically damage it, like letting go a ten-ton tank to crush the boss, or set a fire on the ground to burn it, whilst the boss won't be killed immediately. At the same time, we can use our weapons to directly lower its hp. Last but not least, not fighting the boss with direct weapons only. The Nihilanth fight is a bad and boring one.

p.s. Notice that using environments means no using gravity gun. So throwing object at the boss with gravity gun is not what I want. Gravity gun is not an example of using dynamic evironmemts since Gravity gun itself is merely a weapon in HL series.

p.p.s. I need a cool, unique boss. An unique model.

[MultiVaC]

3. Minor pizza can be included. But not a big and over-complicated one.


What? lol

[XANA]

maybe the advisor could make a few visits. he will do different things, y'know, psychic blasts, possession of other NPCs, that sorta thing. you damage him and he'll leave and you could find him in other levels. oh, instead of the word "visits", i meant to say "recurrances", but i'm too lazy to do it.

[bbson john]

What? lol

I skipped my lunch :P

Anyway, my arguement should be heeded.

[jimmyjam]

the closest things to boss fights in hl2 were ruined by the fact that they could be beaten with firepower
not just that, that was the only way to kill them

I want to perform an elaborate series of puzzles in order to hit the strider in the knee with a novelty boxing glove, knocking him over

[Cypher19]

I don't know where you guys are getting this "boss fights needlessly break the immersion" nonsense from. Are you playing the game because it's fun to play or because you want it to be a VR machine? Immersiveness has its place and it's good and all, but removal of boss fights is where the line should be drawn. They're often the most memorable parts of games, and the funnest as well because the playing involved is often so much different than the rest of the game since they can have unique artwork, special scripting, and so on. The only justification I can see is that one can reason "If the Combine or whatever had _THIS_ big powerful entity, why didn't they make a hundred and throw them all at me?", which can even have some amount of reasoning behind it, such as the fact that the combine or antlions or whatever have only a single leader (e.g. advisor) or something.

[ríomhaire]

Well, strider busting sounds interesting. We'll see how that plays won't we ;)

[bbson john]

Well, strider busting sounds interesting. We'll see how that plays won't we ;)

The strider blast is cool to me. Yet, most probably why people do not feel it is because the blast don't cause instant threat to the players. So it to not necessary to pay full attention on it. So it is possible that someone misses it. Moreover, not much attention is drawn when the strider uses it blast cannon, since there are too many other things, like soldiers and other striders, are needed to be take care of. People simply can't focus on the strider which is ready for the blast. After all, the blast scene is not as spectacular as we thought of. There are only a blue beam, than a big explosion and the whole object become chaotic rubble. We cannot actually see how an undamage object starts to crush up and slowly turn into pieces. It doesn't give us a sense of "broken up" or "tearing apart".

[ríomhaire]

I'm talking about using the strider busters.

[bbson john]

I'm talking about using the strider busters.

That's a ridiculous idea. :upstare:

[xirow]

That's a ridiculous idea. :upstare:

Strider Busters are new weapons in Episode Two. You have to shoot them (with the Manipulator) on the underbelly of the Striders. The Strider Busters will draw energy from the Strider.

Ríomhaire isn’t talking about the big Strider canon.

[bbson john]

Enough for the spoiler, back to whether an artistic giant boss is needed.

[bigburpco]

Admit that you're wrong :P

[bbson john]

Admit that you're wrong :P

who?

[bigburpco]

I don't quite get you.

[bbson john]

Don't you feel big boss like Harvester in quake 4 is cool?

[Samon]

No.

[bbson john]

But it does. We rarely come across enemy with this scale. First, the boss itself is a piece of art. It is very amusing to simply look at it. Also, fighting an enemy with such a large scale require a different skill, which is unique and enjoyable. Moreover, since the boss is big, it can destroy most of the environments and props. And this can make use of the new cinematic physics system to create a grand destruction scene, for instance, the boss destroy a building, very nice to see.

[bigburpco]

But Nihilanth wasn't say, amusing to look at.

[Samon]

We rarely come across enemy with this scale.

And that is why they sucked.

[bbson john]

And that is why they sucked.

BECAUSE their model is hard to be made. As well as it is hard to script. Few people will say a gigantic boss is not cool.

[Samon]

What? Really, what does that have to do with my playing experience with the boss?

[bbson john]

What? Really, what does that have to do with my playing experience with the boss?

I explained that why we come across very few of them in games.

[bigburpco]

We don't usually see creative ideas in games, but that doesn't mean that they are good.

[Zeus]

To the people who don't want boss fights:

Do you not want boss fights period or do you just not want some generic behemoth with one million HP? Because the tentacles in HL1 never broke immersion for me and were enjoyable to defeat.

Not to mention they added a good horror factor with the dying scientist 'Destroy the damned thing before it grows any larger!!' then you hear the banging and your like 'wtf is that'. Then they show it killing a security guard. I think they did a really amazing job introducing it, and on the gameplay mechanics to beat it

[Que-Ever]

Anybody besides me having trouble trying to picture somethign that would be a boss in half-life? The gargs worked. But anything else, bigger, or more like a synth, doesn't seem to fit in.

[Flyingdebris]

Don't diss a good bossfight. They help give a player a break from the usual killing of the disposable henchmen while still keeping the visceral thrill that isn't present in most normal puzzles.

[bigburpco]

I find a boss like Nihilanth fine. It's a bit more interesting than just blasting him with your weapons; he can heal himself, you can restock on ammo by the portals he uses. The best part was the orbs around him, and how they could be regained by going to the crystals.

[bbson john]

Nihilanth is more likely an object which we need to continuously pour bullets and gunpowder into it. It's cool but not cool enough.

you can restock on ammo by the portals he uses.

Wait... how?

[bigburpco]

You go inside and after defeating the Controllers, you'll find ammo lying around, and some encased in this little green... canister. There's a portal for you to get out.

[xirow]

Anybody besides me having trouble trying to picture somethign that would be a boss in half-life? The gargs worked. But anything else, bigger, or more like a synth, doesn't seem to fit in.

I big Synth probably wouldn’t fit in. But a Xen creature (AntLion King, Tentacle, Hydra) might.

[nimby]

I liked the hunterchopper boss fight in HL2, and the reactor puzzle (semi-boss fight).

I have to agree that striders and gunship battles don't really feel like bossfights. They're too numerous to feel momentous (especially in HL2, the gunship fight in EP1 was good), and -way- too easy to take down after you figure out how to dodge their fire.

Blast pit was grand, because you were working a whole level to kill the tentacles (though it's kinda weird how they got there in the first place).

The garguanta was a bit less, but still felt like a real boss fight without being ridiculous.

Gonarch and Nihilanth were like the rest of Xen. It made sense game-wise, but weren't that fun compared to the rest.



Now as for my hopes for Ep2/3... I'm hoping for some last-ditch efforts on the combine, sending their prototype synths after you. I don't really like antlions :P

[cquinn]

But I don't mind a boss wherein you need to engage brain in order to take it out...not at all. I just don't want it to be thrown in there for the sheer sake of it. I consider Dark Energy a boss fight in a sense - where the battle is practical in that you need to stop Breen from escaping. Valve seem to aim for a more practical way of doing things and I really like that. I don't want to see another Nihilanth.

That's one aspect where Valve got it right, by the end of HL2 you had risen from feeling powerless at the beginning, to feeling like you were the final boss of the game.

In HL1 even the final battle with the Nihilanth had other Xen creatures popping in to have to overcome so you could get back to the fight, or
avoid being teleported out.

But the combine troops that were so much trouble coming in to the Citadel were little more than a secondary obstacle, and in some cases were extra ammo, in completing the objective of stopping Breen from leaving.
Breen was not the boss, the Reactor and Citadel resources were not a boss,
even the time limit to complete the task was not what made it a boss fight.
It was being able to use everything you had learned from surviving the rest of the game to finally kick combine ass that made it into a boss of a fight.

In some games the BOSS battle is there to show you have reached the end of a level, and that most of the creative effort was put into making that final fight worth it. But some of the best challenges in the Half-Life series come about in the middle of a chapter, and make you the player learn to be more creative in how you handle the challenge, and the overwhelming odds of the chapters that follow.

[bbson john]

We have already felt it in HL2 so I demand something different in Ep:2. A bos fight will be just fit to introduce a new, unique, giant monstrosity. As I said before, I want to have a look at the ability of Valve in creating a dynamic, destroyable environments, which I expected to be great for game players.

[Flyingdebris]

I think the best boss fights are the kind where the stakes are constantly being raised.

For instance in the end of hl2 you had a timelimit urging you to bust the reactor before breen GTFO. That adds a good amount of tension. With the ep1 gunship fight you had your cover being eaten away the whole time.

I'd like to see a bossfight where you fight in a building that is burning down, or some other environment that is becoming progressively more dangerous. A simple "dodge its fire, take your time, and hit its flashy weakspot" is boring. As are stationary bosses that you can just hammer away at while doging its predictable attacks.

Its got to be something that when you finish it, you have to mop the sweat off your brow, say "f*ck yes, eat sh*t computer," and pat yourself on the back for a job well done.

[DeusExMachina]

They should bring the Prowlers back and have one or a squad of them hunting Freeman in the woods. THAT would be so bad ass. They can jump and climb trees and shit and pop out of nowhere. Oh man...that'd be the coolest boss fight ever. Have it so Gordon lost all his weapons except for the Crowbar. Melee frenzy n_n.

[smwScott]

Maybe I don't fully understand the biology of Antlions, but why would something that big evolve and survive in the first place? How would it mate? How could it possibly eat enough to survive? I understand that they may be hive-minded, but hives revolve around the queen to reproduce. What the hell does a giant male antlion have to offer?

Also, something that kind of bugs me is if the antlions are Xen creatures then wouldn't their flying ability be a bit out of place? Xen has lower gravity which makes that flying style awkward and not anything like the other flying creatures on Xen. Are they not from Xen?

[Flyingdebris]

i think it was laidlaw that said something to the effect that most creatures did not originate from Xen, Xen was just a sort of place where things kinda ended up.

Translation... Valve can make up whatever crazy ass monster they like without having to worry too much as to whether it would be highly suited to a Xen environment.

As for something that big living underground. Well, look at it this way. Since its male it can afford to be huge without having to be fed (relatively) much since it won't be spitting out babies 24/7 like a queen would. Since its living in underground caverns the walls would be able to support its bulk. Even better if it lives half sumerged in underground water sources (water would support its weight better), which judging by the antlions living near the coasts of c17, is possible. Its means of reproduction is probably done by King Blobby Cheeks impregnating a still unseen type of antlion or perhaps the Guards or even the regular antlions. This would spread the duty of birthing out amongst more than one antlion and mean that the hive can multiply faster than if they had a queen setup.

(edit) I am such a gigantic nerd...:(

[Inyssius Grey]

i think it was laidlaw that said something to the effect that most creatures did not originate from Xen, Xen was just a sort of place where things kinda ended up.

Translation... Valve can make up whatever crazy ass monster they like without having to worry too much as to whether it would be highly suited to a Xen environment.

As for something that big living underground. Well, look at it this way. Since its male it can afford to be huge without having to be fed (relatively) much since it won't be spitting out babies 24/7 like a queen would. Since its living in underground caverns the walls would be able to support its bulk. Even better if it lives half sumerged in underground water sources (water would support its weight better), which judging by the antlions living near the coasts of c17, is possible. Its means of reproduction is probably done by King Blobby Cheeks impregnating a still unseen type of antlion or perhaps the Guards or even the regular antlions. This would spread the duty of birthing out amongst more than one antlion and mean that the hive can multiply faster than if they had a queen setup.

(edit) I am such a gigantic nerd...:(

QFT.

[xirow]

They should bring the Prowlers back and have one or a squad of them hunting Freeman in the woods. THAT would be so bad ass. They can jump and climb trees and shit and pop out of nowhere. Oh man...that'd be the coolest boss fight ever. Have it so Gordon lost all his weapons except for the Crowbar. Melee frenzy n_n.

The return of the Prowlers would be great :) But not as a boss fight.

[Burnhard]

I completely agree with the OP on this. Something I missed from HL2 compared to HL1 are the big set-piece combat challenges a "boss" brings. In half-life the tentacles challenge was amazing, especially with the "cut-scene" beforehand to introduce it. I especially loved the boss in Gonarch's Lair. That was another real challenge. Ah and the Bullsquid - killing it by making it chase you and then throwing the switch to electrocute it.

It's variety that makes it so much fun. Not knowing what is going to be around the next corner. Finding out how it behaves and looking for a weakness to target. In this respect, I found HL 2 a little "monochrome". If it's big, fire rockets at it. If it's an ant-lion boss, just pump plenty of lead into it. Thats it. Not much variety there.

AND I WANT A GLUON GUN - Probably the best sound and graphics effect on a weapon I've ever seen :).

[Inyssius Grey]

Yes, that bullsquid really was terrifying, with its flamethrower arms and blue carapace...

[Sparta]

I'd prefer a boss fight rather than some tough enemy like the Strider again. I loved running through the maze of freigthers in Ep1 but i'd really really love to see an enemy that could only be beaten a certain, that maybe is capable of spawning other enemies as well :O. That'd be cool. I guess kinda like the Poison Headcrab Zombie. Those things strike fear into me every time i hear them. More enemies like that would be nuts. But more along the lines of the enemies like Cerebrus in God of War. Something you've gotta kill really fast before everything gets overwhelming. That would really make everything hectic.

[bbson john]

Ah and the Bullsquid - killing it by making it chase you and then throwing the switch to electrocute it.


Gargantua?

Yes, that bullsquid really was terrifying, with its flamethrower arms and blue carapace...

Gargantua!

[Burnhard]

Gargantua?



Gargantua!

Thats the one. My bad. The bullsquid was the snorting, grunting, pig-like thing that spits out yellow goo. I'm talking about the big bot in Power Up!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gargantua_%28Half-Life%29