Divided, Cheaters Stand

[rec]

A shock post from one of the industries most despised and well established cheat developers, who we know only as Joolz, has taken a stand, backing the Valve team. Joolz has made a public announcement about his feelings on the recent source leak, expressing his disappointment in fellow comrades...

I will say one thing. Whoever did this has gone a 'step to far'.

Writing cheats is one thing. Reverse engineering out how to write them is another. But, breaking into a company to steal the code is not on. I work for the software industry myself, my sympathys are with the Valve team...

...if you know who did it... let them know on helpvalve@valvesoftware.com. I know we cheat/wreck their game. Without them, there is no HL/CS/HL2, is there?
This highlights just how seriously this situation has been adopted by community members. When cheaters stand up against their own, morals come to light even under these circumstances.

To whomever it was behind this crime against a company that has supported us over the years better than any other before them; it looks like you're on your own. It's only a matter of time before you're caught, and you will be.

[Stormy]

well said

[himself]

hopefully, hopefully.

best wishes to valve :|

[ph34r t3h cute]

Well said yes, but I dont think it will make whoever knows anything own up.

[Smittins]

"It's only a matter of time before you're caught, and you will be."

With the FBI on the case, I wouldn't count on it.

[Tropico]

Originally posted by Smittins
"It's only a matter of time before you're caught, and you will be."

With the FBI on the case, I wouldn't count on it.


hehe

No but we do hope they are caught ,enough is enough.
5 years of hard work could be easily destroyed in 5 minutes it´s just not on.

[WaSwAt]

aah luckely Joolz is on our side... im happy to hear that :) he actually was (and still is) an enemy of the cs anti-cheat community
Well said 'Joolz', we need all the help we can get

POST EDITED

[GoLiatH]

Joolz is a high ranked cheat coder in the hacker community but you should know that it is thousands of cheaters making hacks for cs & hl. But Joolz is brave to stand up for himself in this case and i personal think its more like a "[my g0t]" thing i hate those twats.

[InsaneFool]

*gets his Bounty Hunting gear ready*
Personally I would like to track down every one of those people that did that...and punch them in the groin until their noses bled.

[rec]

InsaneFool, according to your last post, you really are exactly that.

Punch them in the groin... until their noses bled. Hey, whatever gets you going. :)

[Nuclear_Gerber]

That sure will hurt...Take some pics will ya :)

[Jasco]

?

[Ghost Freeman]

When a hacker takes a stand against other hackers, that shows how much people care about Valve.

[Wesisapie]

I think i'm going to make a shirt, like those "I shot JFK" shirts.. except mine will be "I stole the HL2 source code"

in a few years, i wonder if they will exist...

[Apos]

It's great that Joolz is standing up for this. Too bad his sense of morals is so entirely self-centered that he only has sympathy for Valve either because he enjoys hurting them and our community in HIS way, or because his wouldn't want anyone stealing or ruining HIS work. This is a guy whose main known occupation is to wreck other people's fun. I wish there was more we as a community could do to stop these people, leakers and cheaters all. In the end, they're all the same, no matter what they posture.

[Obz]

This doesnt deserve a front page. The guy is a cheat. He wrecks our game. Positive or negative his views shouldn't be publicized like this.

[Jasco]

Maybe other cheaters will follow him? That cant be all negative.

[Tork]

Who cares what he thinks , hes still a cheater. couldnt care about this joolz character, once a cheat always a cheat thats how I look at it.

[Obz]

hes just as bad as the guy that stole the source code.

DOWN WITH THIS NEWS ITEM!!!

[Mountain Man]

I'm not sure how to take this. The guy tries to draw some sort of moral line between reverse engineering software and wrecking the online experience for others and stealing source code. Either practice is damaging and immoral, so while this guy seems to be taking the moral high ground, I'm not exactly sure what that high ground is. I mean, just look at his conclussion! He says, in essence, "It's wrong to steal the source code even though we create cheats and wreck the game anyway." Huh?

Frankly, this stunt really makes cheaters and script kiddies look bad. I think this guy is just trying to distance himself, but I'm not buying it.

[killahsin-[CE]]

well there is a difference between makign cheats that ruin a players experiance yes, and breaking into a company stealing their software, and releasing its source to millions of people online. Knowing that it could quite possibly destroy the company as a whole.

although i hate cheaters with a passion, i do agree there is a slight difference.

[[reS!] blAke]

ok, maybe he is a cheater, but i think he seriously tries to increase the moral... if you are a cheater and you read this, i think you will open your mind and stand behind valve...
maybe he's a cheater, but he's still human and has still feelings... so, i think that could help us a little bit ;)

[aocab`Ace]

Originally posted by Apos
It's great that Joolz is standing up for this. Too bad his sense of morals is so entirely self-centered that he only has sympathy for Valve either because he enjoys hurting them and our community in HIS way, or because his wouldn't want anyone stealing or ruining HIS work. This is a guy whose main known occupation is to wreck other people's fun. I wish there was more we as a community could do to stop these people, leakers and cheaters all. In the end, they're all the same, no matter what they posture.

Haaang on just a second here ...
'Joolz' Isnt hell bent on wrecking everybodys lives, He makes cheats because he is he is a hacker with nothing else to do, and its his way of telling valve to get their act together.
The last version of VAC (Which valve pay to make) he had cracked in no time ...

He has said this before, he is quite happy to "Swap sides" and report exploits he finds back to valve for fixing 'IF HE GETS THE SUPPORT OF THE COMMUNITY'.
Infact from what I hear he is about to start working for 2 ANTI-cheat organisations, so he will be making the gaming world such a better place :)

So be a little considerate and dont judge people just from what you hear, most people dont know anything about him and just consider him a random script kiddy who just wants to **** the game.

[Smittins]

Joolz is pathetic - he says he made cheats for the challenge, while freely admitting cheats are a lot easier top code than effective anti-cheat solutions.

[Smittins]

p.s. it made the BBC news!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3162074.stm

[aocab`Ace]

Thats right hes looking for a challenge and he is likely going to find it in ANTI-cheat starting soon .... Where he will help valve more than anyone could ever know.

[Neilhead]

I know most people posting here will probably slaughter what I write but i'll stick to being the devils advocate on this occaision :devil:

Is this really why HL2 is being delayed or is this a 'stunt' to increase the profile of HL2 & gain back some respect for Valve?

Given the recent negative publicity concerning the delay to HL2 launch date are Valve/Vivendi looking for the sympathy vote from a cheesed off HL community?

If this is reality, then hopefully the person will be caught although he must be a muppet to post the code on the net! He'll get caught one way or another.... :sniper:

[DrEvil]

Originally posted by rec
InsaneFool, according to your last post, you really are exactly that.

Punch them in the groin... until their noses bled. Hey, whatever gets you going. :)

That actually made me laugh out loud.

[JohnDoe]

Newbie here. Not really that much into gaming, valve, cracking, hacking or whatever. So I'll consider this a view from another perspective. Now, ever since I heard the news about the leak, I've been reading the forums here on halflife2.net, with great interest. First of all, Valve has my deepest symphaty, because this is an act of cowardness and envy from what I can see. I don't really know jack-sh** about hacking, although know enough to accept the posibility of hacking someone through Microsofts various securitybreaches and holes. But are the posibilities of an inside job totally out of the picture? I mean this is how most games, movies and applications are leaked out on the warez-scene. Someone from the inside (shopclerk, programmer or whatever) gets a copy home, copys it and there you go.

So. Not knowing anything really about Valve, or how many people working there, I'd just wanted to get some feedback on this theory.
Flaming, criticism or opinions on this would be greatly appreciated. :eek:

[Melov]

:dork:

[aocab`keyser]

hmmmmm

[Neilhead]

Just spoke to my brother, he's a developer. He said the following (which is what I assumed the practice would be!):

1. Don't use MS Outlook..
2. Don't put your source code on any PC's linked to anything external
3. Create a user with access permission but a password on things put on the internal network. Keep the original on your own PC.

There are probably other controls, but he's not saying anything more. I hope this helps...

[Gtwy]

Or you can just make the machines that have the games unhackable: unplug the ethernet connection.

[A-KO]

Well, it's nice to see someone with enough professional courtesy to put out an official stance and wording on the position. Like many others, I'm sure he wouldn't want his code jacked from him like that, especially when we're talking about something so large as this.

I doubt that it will ruin Valve Software. After all, no commercial game will be able to use the code without first purchasing the license, so they're all in the clear there. The only way a company could get around this is to look at the code and 'mimic' its functionality. Though I doubt any larger company would go and do this (id software, Gearbox, any other major game development team) simply out of courtesy. I would hope :)

This does put a hurting on all of their new technologies that they were hoping to highlight about the game, since so many people will quite literally know how it all works, but there are going to be the millions that don't. So it's still all gravy to the rest of us.

As for delaying the game, I bet this is definitely going to delay the game. The game was already delayed to the 'holiday season', I doubt we'll see it before Christmas now. But that depends, but I'm sure currently all efforts are being spent on making sure everything is secured down before going back to work on the code. I'm sure this is also a heavy demoralizing event within Valve, but they cannot give up on the game, there are still so many of us that are dying to see this vision come to life.

With such a large operation, I'm sure the asshole had to have slipped up somewhere. They will catch him, and when they do, he's going to get what he deserves. This is a HUGE CRIME. This isn't just any sort of hack-creation, this is Intellectual Property Theft, this is the whole 9 yards. It's just as bad as if someone went in and stole all of Microsoft's Windows sources and released them to the net.

I wouldn't sit here and place the blame on Microsoft just yet. The fact is, these things happen. No matter what software you use, unless you know every bit of it in and out, you're not going to plug up every security hole. With the platform they're developing for, they have no choice but to run Microsoft Windows. So don't go "should've used Linux" yadda yadda. I'll say it again as I've said it before, systems are only as secure as you want to put the effort into it.

You can't expect everyone or everything to be perfect. I think the best way to circumvent this from ever happening again with keeping the same level of involvement with the community, would be to install 2nd computers in everyone's office right next to their current development PCs. All development PCs will be linked to an internal network, while the other PCs will be online. Development PCs will not have an outside link to the network. And they simply should compile and run things like demos, and burn them onto CDs or DVDs to transfer them over to the other PCs.

This would keep their sanity as well as security. It's the safest bet.

I hope they just don't go haul off and never communicate with us anymore, which would royally suck :(

And for those that think this is some sort of conspiracy? Are you out of your damn minds? NOBODY AT ALL would *ever* release their source code like this prior to the shipping of the game like that. NEVER. That's just bad overall. I'd immediately remove this thought from your head.

[JohnDoe]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And for those that think this is some sort of conspiracy? Are you out of your damn minds? NOBODY AT ALL would *ever* release their source code like this prior to the shipping of the game like that. NEVER. That's just bad overall. I'd immediately remove this thought from your head.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Don't know if this was for me, but a conspiracy was not really what I had in mind.. Simply an untrue servant of the company for some reason. Just a thought...

[re-tort]

:dozey: well i'm probably going to be chewed out by about 70% of you people for saying this. But I understand Joolz morals, no matter how messed up they are. And before you start barking, understand that I hate cheaters just as much as the rest of you, but here goes nothing.

It's one thing to create cheats, from flaws in code. Even though cheaters ruin good games, with games like halflife.. where each server can be regulated by it's maker, admins can get rid of cheaters they don't want playing. However, breaking into a self-reliant company, that has been bringing us great games, and stealing part of their source code for an unreleased, greatly anticipated game, is beyond wrong. For what harm you do with the leakage, will harm anyone.. and can only be regulated by valve, and valve alone, as to what extent it hurts the community.
I am extremely puzzled as to why anyone would do that to halflife2, which, has been/ and still is a greatly anticipated game. Probably even by the hacker himself. All the leakage could possibly do is delay the game even farther. Which noone wants to have happen. Especially in a community full of as many computer - literate people as this one, that just has to be one of the most idiotic ideas.

[Mountain Man]

Originally posted by A-KO
After all, no commercial game will be able to use the code without first purchasing the license, so they're all in the clear there.
Not exactly. A programmer could learn a hell of lot just by looking at code. Say a developers is having a problem with, say, their AI routines. A quick peek at how Valve solved a similiar problem could be all they need to inspire their own solution.

It's the loss of 5 years worth of research and developement that is most damaging to Valve.

[-[PM.enigma]-]

I for one stand behind Joolz 100%. I completely agree with him on this being a completely ridiculous thing to do. Some background:

I belong to a clan of "hackers" and cheaters. If you truly want to know who we are and what we believe in, then take a step to our site at www.planet mayhem.org and check it out. Click the "about" link and you will see.

For a summary, we are a group of extremely talented CS players whome also like to have fun on the side. We do not hack in leagues, nor do we support those who do in their endeavours. We do not believe in hiding the fact that we cheat either.

I am not here to get into an argument on the legality of cheating, nor am I going to get into a moral arguement as to which is the lesser of two evils. I am here to lend my support for Joolz in his statement. I am also here to state that what was done is an egregious thing to have happenned. That kind of thievery stoops below any morals.

Our community stands behind Valve in this attempt to locate the originators of the theft and leak. One thing everyone needs to consider is that it may not have been cheaters who stole the code. I don't know all of the details and haven't heard anything from Valve stating there was a "calling card" of any sort identifying cheaters as being the culprits.

There are many reasons one could use the source code, many things that can be done with it. Blaming the cheating community without knowing all the facts is poorly met.

[aocab`Ace]

Umm can you not advertise cheat sites in here ??

Also to who compared this to someone theoretically stealing all the windows sources and posting them on the intenet, its sorta different.
Cause people actually care about valve and HL2 :D

[A-KO]

Mountain Man:

Of course, and that is damaging. But I would hope that out of respect larger developers would not do that, but after all, we are human. Valve can count on that happening.

But in all honesty, is that really so bad? Half Life 2 is impressive indeed, and years ahead many other games.....But I wouldn't see it as bad for us consumers if someone else mimicked their AI routines. This is a blessing for the community, and a nightmare for Valve. But after all, Valve is just a game company, and game companies have been shoving more and more time into the "Engine" than the game itself, which is kind of disappointing.

For their sake, they better hope that Half Life 2 is more than just super flashy video effects and is a superb game that lives up to the original (personally, I didn't think the original was all that great overtop Quake 2).

[Necromancer]

helpvalve@valvesoftware.com works guys..this post is legit!


Full transcript below..
========================================

From: Erik Johnson <Snipped>To: '*** *****' <Snipped>
Subject: RE: Hello?
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 10:33:08 -0700

It's the real deal.

-----Original Message-----
From: *** ***** [mailto:Snipped]
Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 10:29 AM
To: helpvalve@valvesoftware.com
Subject: Hello?


Hey, this is just a test to prove that this address works...if it bounces I
will be disclaiming that the Gabe Newell post was a fake ;)

--
Thanks,
*** *****
(Necromancer)

========================================

http://www.rivalspecies.com

[Liquid05]

brave of Joolz to say this. He gain my respect because of this.

[KaneRobot]

I guess I'm in the minority here, but putting this guy on a pedestal and deeming a statement from his "front page news" is NOT a good thing. Hell, for all we know he is laughing his ass off about this whole thing and just did that for S&G.

[midspace]

What a lot of you don’t understand right now is, that Valve will have no choice now but to delay the game further (that is if the current delay isn’t because of their compromised network), post 2003 Christmas.
A number of things will have to happen.
1. Secure their networks. They are already doing this, amidst the mess of find out how many of their machines have been compromised with hidden files and key loggers.
2. They’ll have to do a security overhaul. Their network administration is a little lax if they haven’t been keeping up with Microsoft’s security updates and patches. Yeah, you guys with Linux can say lots about you security, but I’m sure someone at Value feels guilty about not doing more beforehand, like up to date antivirus protection. Us programmers can be lax if we aren’t reminded often to keep it up to date. I was scare recently when my PC was infected by a worm, not by the Internet, but by another PC on a LAN. So don’t you all go pointing fingers at the Internet for the source of all demons.
3. Gabe and his Valve team will need to find out how much of their code has been compromised. This I believe is the worst part of this whole saga. Some of you talk about the source been the OpenGL code and graphics engine to show HL2 in it’s wonderful glory. But you’re forgetting other importing factors. The AI engine. The Steam functionality and Internet authentication. No doubt there is code relevant to how to communicate with Steam, download updates, Purchase mods for HL2, and CD-Key authentication. This will undoubtedly put Valve behind the 8-ball.

So expect long delays until Half-Life 2 is released.
Until then, I’m just going to hope they catch the hacker(s) soon, and put them in jail. Yes, this crime in the U.S. and Australia (if you are here), it carries a jail term. You will be caught, you will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, and you will serve time.

My condolences to the Valve people.

-----
Next out :- Half Life 2 :- Total Conversion. Hunt for the Hacker.
Join the Valve team, as they gather arms in this total conversion of the new HL2 engine, as they seek out a rampant hacker across six famous city locales, following the trail of the evidence, and the multitude of robotic henchmen left in the hackers wake. All followed by a climatic showdown never seen since the likes of Duke Nukem!

[Apos]

'Joolz' Isnt hell bent on wrecking everybodys lives, He makes cheats because he is he is a hacker with nothing else to do, and its his way of telling valve to get their act together.

If that were true, there would be no reason to release his cheats publically to every lamer on the internet. This "hacker ethic" is akin to complaining that there aren't enough police around to solve murders so you are going to murder people until something is done.

For a summary, we are a group of extremely talented CS players whome also like to have fun on the side. We do not hack in leagues, nor do we support those who do in their endeavours. We do not believe in hiding the fact that we cheat either.

You release cheats widely to anyone, even people who don't share your philosophy of self-identification. And you join servers that clearly don't want cheaters, even going so far as to defeat attempts to keep out cheating. So you're full of it, like all public server cheaters.

[Fallout]

As some of the more intelligent members of this community have realized, this Joolz character (whom I have never heard of, nor care even the slightest about) is merely trying to distance himself from hacking and ruining the Valve community.

As he even said in his statement, his goal (as is the goal of other cheat developers or clans like *****) is to ruin the fun of others. Sorry, but if the goal of these hackers was to show thier coding prowess they'd work on anti-cheat measures, or something that is constructive. Showing you can hack into software is rarely a feat someone wants to see on a resume, but if you produce something that's actually useful to the community then perhaps you could get a job from it.

This Joolz person is merely trying to distance himself from the criminal act that occured on Valve's network by some moron, but it is still clear he has no morals. None of his actions consider the well-being of anyone, merely himself. Hacking into Valve was bad according to him, because it was illegal. He merely follows the accepted ethics to a point, as he will only do whatever he can without getting into legal trouble. Do not confuse the difference between ethics and morals.

Joolz is not a good person, nor a smart person, nor a respectable person. He is a selfish person whose coding skills lack, as he cannot do anything but exploit bugs that are nearly impossible to find and repair with the minimal resources Valve has. It's pretty sad to see people (even cheaters, like the guy from Mayhem or whatever that ***** clan is) pretend they have honor by stating they "never cheat in leagues". Yes, why don't you cheat in leagues? Well, because if you get caught you are blacklisted. Cheating in pubs merely ruins the fun of the more casual player, who plays CS after a hard day at work or school.

Saying you feel stealing source code is wrong is not going to change the fact that your efforts ruin the fun of thousands of people every day. You are worthless in every regards, and here's to a short life for you hack coders unable to do anything productive.

[Zerox]

WELL SAID! :thumbs:

[Fallout]

I listened to an interview with this Joolz person, and he mentioned how is "earlier hacks" included CD key stealers. He also mentioned he had stolen "no more than" 5000 CD keys. That means, he's saying "Stealing the source code from a company is wrong, but stealing the CD-Keys from customers (worth at least $20 a pop) is perfectly alright."

Letsee... $20 a CD key (since that's what people really buy), with 5000 keys... total of $100,000 stolen. Considering he uses those keys to test his hacks (some of which fail, thus banning the CD key) he is essentially causing damage bordering on $100,000.


Is stealing $100,000 from hard working gamers perfectly acceptable?

[Kadayi]

There was an article in PCzone or PCGamer (one or the other) about CS hacks and the joolz guy was interviewed. If I recall his particular viewpoint on the keyloggers that he wrote into his hacks was that, that was the risk people took with using his software. Personally if someones going to use hacks and cheat their way to 'glory' but as a consequence end up loosing their CD Key should we really give a shit? The only reason they got stung was because they cheated.

[Fallout]

That's like saying it's okay if a drug dealer murders an addict, since the addict was breaking the law by buying drugs. That analogy doesn't work perfectly, but you should be able to get my point.

The cheater is cheating, and ruining the fun of other people but the key logger is the same as stealing Half-Life from someone. I consider stealing a much bigger offense than cheating in a game, as does the law. One is illegal, while the other is not. Considering Joolz did it to almost five thousand people, I'm unsure where this guy gets off on pretending like he can have some sort of stance against theft.

[-[PM.enigma]-]

As some of the more intelligent members of this community have realized, this Joolz character (whom I have never heard of, nor care even the slightest about) is merely trying to distance himself from hacking and ruining the Valve community.


Did you even bother to read his post? More importantly, you have the gall to pass judgement on someone you don't even know? You know nothing about him, or us, as you have admitted already.


As he even said in his statement, his goal (as is the goal of other cheat developers or clans like *****) is to ruin the fun of others. Sorry, but if the goal of these hackers was to show thier coding prowess they'd work on anti-cheat measures, or something that is constructive. Showing you can hack into software is rarely a feat someone wants to see on a resume, but if you produce something that's actually useful to the community then perhaps you could get a job from it.


This also shows your lack of knowledge. Anyone who has even the slightest bit of knowledge about Joolz knows he is a very well respected and successful programmer. Probably far more successful and happy in his life than you (which I gather from your negative tone).


This Joolz person is merely trying to distance himself from the criminal act that occured on Valve's network by some moron, but it is still clear he has no morals. None of his actions consider the well-being of anyone, merely himself. Hacking into Valve was bad according to him, because it was illegal. He merely follows the accepted ethics to a point, as he will only do whatever he can without getting into legal trouble. Do not confuse the difference between ethics and morals.


Has no morals based on what, that he codes cheats? Wow. Coding a cheat that is used in game to piss someone off is no worse than wasting your life away in a forum putting down someone you don't even know. My goodness, why don't you turn your own statements onto yourself and see how pretty of a picture you paint for yourself. I doubt you are perfect, in fact I would bet you are as far from perfect as the rest of us, therefor I feel you have as much right to lecture ANYONE on ethics or morals as the next guy.


Joolz is not a good person, nor a smart person, nor a respectable person. He is a selfish person whose coding skills lack, as he cannot do anything but exploit bugs that are nearly impossible to find and repair with the minimal resources Valve has. It's pretty sad to see people (even cheaters, like the guy from Mayhem or whatever that ***** clan is) pretend they have honor by stating they "never cheat in leagues". Yes, why don't you cheat in leagues? Well, because if you get caught you are blacklisted. Cheating in pubs merely ruins the fun of the more casual player, who plays CS after a hard day at work or school.


You know, you amaze me. You show your intelligence level by first stating that Joolz is someone you "have never heard of, nor care even the slightest about", and in the same post go on to slam his character, coding and programming skills, his respectability, and his intelligence. You claim to know nothing about him or even care, and then turn around and start slamming him. That shows extreme immaturity. It also shows lack of intelligence and common sense. Don't profess to know something you first claim you know nothing about. It makes you look like an idiot.

Also, we do not cheat in leagues because that is simply wrong. Here is why:

We go out to have a good time. We play our way, you pay yours. You do not have to like the way we play, nor do we have to like yours. We respect those who have skill, and feel they have earned their place in the leagues they are in. That is the way it should be. Public servers are an open playing field. The simple fact that CS supports non-secure areas of play states that you are not safe from cheaters anywhere. You know what they say about assuming.

Cheating in a league is disrespectful, not only to yourself but also to those whom have earned their place. It is also stealing, if you have not truly earned your place or respect, you are stealing it from somebody else. We have honor, and we have skill - which is why we have no need to cheat in leagues. You want cheat free playtime - go to a cybercafe and play on a LAN there, or set up a LAN with some friends. There ya go.

By the way, blacklisting. ROFL. Do you have any clue how many "blacklisted" players still play in leagues? Don't be a moron. New cdkey, new IP addy, new email and BAM. There you go. How many people do you really think are legit in CAL? the CPL is different - you CAN cheat there, but you can also be caught in no time flat. If you can hack your way into the CPL and win anything, you have earned it anyway.


Saying you feel stealing source code is wrong is not going to change the fact that your efforts ruin the fun of thousands of people every day. You are worthless in every regards, and here's to a short life for you hack coders unable to do anything productive.


We never said our efforts would change anything. It was simply a statement saying there is a line and people can go too far. Stealing something worth money to another is wrong. Stealing something from a major company such as this is severely wrong.


That's like saying it's okay if a drug dealer murders an addict, since the addict was breaking the law by buying drugs. That analogy doesn't work perfectly, but you should be able to get my point.

The cheater is cheating, and ruining the fun of other people but the key logger is the same as stealing Half-Life from someone. I consider stealing a much bigger offense than cheating in a game, as does the law. One is illegal, while the other is not. Considering Joolz did it to almost five thousand people, I'm unsure where this guy gets off on pretending like he can have some sort of stance against theft.


You never cease to amaze me in your stupidity. Your analogy is flawed, let me explain it for you:

It is not like saying a drug dealer killing an addict is ok. Because Joolz did not steal the cdkeys. It would be fair to say the coke or whatever killed the addict, much as the cheats stole the keys. Now, you can blame the dealer for his death since he put the drugs into the addicts hands to begin with, much as Joolz put the cheats into others hands. You could even take it further and say that the dealer put something into the coke knowing it would kill the addict, much like Joolz added the keystealers into older versions of his cheats.

However that is where your analogy fails to do anything other than prove my point. The addict still chose to go to the dealer. The addict made the choice to get the drugs. Granted he didn't ask to get dirty drugs, but that is a chance you take when you do drugs. People didn't ask for there keys to be stolen, but that is a chance they took.

Joolz has come out and admitted to what he has done. He also hasn't put anything into his cheats in a very long time. Let me see you and your superior coding skills, or anyone for that matter, prove otherwise. Visit our site at www.planet mayhem.org, download a version of his Meta Cheat software, and find a key stealer... Want to know why? Because he has those morals you claim are missing from his character. He has those ethics you seem to think he was lacking. So he did it before, so what? He admitted to it and quit doing it. More than I can say for your stupidity - it just keeps spouting from your mouth...

You sir, are worthless, not us. Worthless in your unfounded claims. Worthless in your rather pathetic attempt at an intelligent rambling. Worthless in your uneducated statements.

You also are stupid, a special kind of stupid, not the garden variety that you will find around the net, but a special breed that has been popping up lately..

Learn a little about your subject before you try to match wits.

P.S. You have earned a special flame...

Dear,

[x] Clueless Newbie
[x] Loser
[x] Troll
[x] Spammer
[x] Wannabe
[x] Flamer
[x] Whiner
[x] Other: Complete freaking moron

You Are Being Flamed Because

[x] You got on my nerves
[x] You got on my friends nerves
[x] You continued a long, stupid thread
[x] You committed crimes against pork biproducts
[x] You posted a "YOU ALL SUCK" message
[x] You just plain suck
[x] You posted false information
[x] You posted something totally uninteresting
[x] I don't like your tone of voice
[x] You are not civilized enough to post in these forums

In Punishment, You Must:

[x] STFU & GTFO
[x] Jump into a bathtub while holding your monitor
[x] Actually post something relevant
[x] Apologize to everybody on this forum
[x] Go stand in the middle of a Highway
[x] Drink out of a spitoon

In Closing, I'd Like to Say:

[x] Blow me
[x] Get a life
[x] Never post again
[x] I pity your dog
[x] Go to hell
[x] Your IQ must be 7
[x] Take your s*** somewhere else
[x] STFU & GTFO
[x] Learn to post or f*** off
[x] Go jump into some industrial equipment


thanks

[Fallout]

"Anyone who has even the slightest bit of knowledge about Joolz knows he is a very well respected and successful programmer."

Says who? Joolz? Other hackers? No one respects him except other hackers, who are not respected by anyone outside of thier community of worthless individuals. I found it funny Joolz claims that putting "I Hack games and steal CD keys" on his resume will get him a job (or the fact that he claims he gets paid "very very well" for his current job).

"Because Joolz did not steal the cdkeys."

Oh, he didn't? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't he put the code in his hacks to steal other people's CD keys? Or are you saying "Well, he didn't literally steal the CD keys by donning a black mask and sneaking into thier house at night... his CODE stole the CD keys! Don't blame him!".

Sorry pal, but you are wrong.

You hackers (or in your case, merely ignorant fanboys of the people who produce your cheats) are entertaining. You pretend you have morals in complaining about theft of source code from a company but defend the act of stealing from far less wealthy sources, or ruining the fun of other people. You pretend that not cheating in leagues is "honorable" and then say "Haha, yeah right so many people still cheat in leagues". The people who bought the game have paid for something they assume will not be full of jackasses like yourself that have no purpose in life except to cause problems for other people. Being in a league does not change if someone should be forced to deal with cheaters, they should not exist. Heck, I'd say the only reason you don't see cheating on LANs (as often) is because the cowardly hacker is afraid to face the people who might confront him. They are scared of everyone around them, so the anonymous world of the internet allows them to cause problems without the fear of being ridiculed to thier face.

Make some sense, because otherwise you just make it clear you're a complete moron. Thank you for continuing the favored stereotype of the hacker fanboy, ignorant of what law, morals, and other rules of society might be. You merely do what you please, and try to justify it with empty words that make little sense. You and "your" so-called community of people dedicated to nothing more than two-bit programming and harassment of better adjusted people are a collective cancer on computer gaming.

There's a difference between morals, ethics, and "I don't want to be caught". Being a coward, fearing punishment coming your way is not the same as realizing what is done is wrong. Unfortunately, dim people like yourself don't seem to realize this.

[-[PM.enigma]-]

It is not like saying a drug dealer killing an addict is ok. Because Joolz did not steal the cdkeys. It would be fair to say the coke or whatever killed the addict, much as the cheats stole the keys. Now, you can blame the dealer for his death since he put the drugs into the addicts hands to begin with, much as Joolz put the cheats into others hands. You could even take it further and say that the dealer put something into the coke knowing it would kill the addict, much like Joolz added the keystealers into older versions of his cheats.

However that is where your analogy fails to do anything other than prove my point. The addict still chose to go to the dealer. The addict made the choice to get the drugs. Granted he didn't ask to get dirty drugs, but that is a chance you take when you do drugs. People didn't ask for there keys to be stolen, but that is a chance they took.


All you did today was prove my point. Anyone can take one line out of two paragraphs and make it mean what they want. When you actually ready what I said, as you clearly did not, you can see what I meant. This is why I never quoted ONE sentence at a time, and I never do. Because unintelligent people with short attention spans such as yourself take things out of context, and I didn't want this to turn into a word by word piecemeal war. It is still nt going to. For as I have already said, you proved my point, which was as I said that you were uneducated and ignorant.

We are not fans of Joolz. We are friends of Joolz. Of course, someone with your level of intelligence probably can't understand that concept. In fact, I probably have already used words that are way to big for you, which is why you took ONE sentence out of context. Let me make it simple for you, I will speak in retard:

don b wetaded, mowon. u nede tu wetun tu skul an git an edukashun. lurn wut peepol meen whn dey speeck tu u.

And in case you only know "leet" speak and didn't understand me for that reason:

|)0n't b3 |5374|5|)3|), [v]0|50n. j00 n33|) 2 |537u|5n 2 5(|n001 4n|) g37 4n 3|)u94710n. 134|5n |^||n47 |D30|D13 [v]34n |^||n3n 7|n3y 5|D34|> 2 u.

Now in plain English that reads:

Don't be retarded, moron. You need to return to school and get an education. Learn what people mean when they speak to you.

Please don't respond to this with "I am a college graduate, I have a degree in blah blah blah" as it will fall on deaf ears. I truly hope you have no college education as that says a hell of a lot about our education system. I am leaving now as anything you have to say isn't worth reading.

Thank you for proving my point, my work here is done.

PM PWNS J00

[Mr. Redundant]

I dislike someone who cheats. simply because no one wants to play online to be "owned" on uneven grounds.
I respect when someone kills me, hell its commonplace. but I feel "cheated" when said player is blatantly using "hacks"

but see its not a matter of intellegence, a matter of age, social standing, financial status or anything else.

it just comes down to attitude.
some people are just assholes, and you can scream reason till your blue in the face, but the reality of the situation is that your ruining an experience for someone else.
and they dont care, which is why I hate them. its attitude.

I wish there was some way of dividing the servers. so people who cheat can play against others who cheat. or would that be defeating the point?
and its sad that 90% of the gamers out there have said attitude, that "Well lols lols if j00 dnt leik it j00s cen ply LAN!!!< LSOLSOOL NUBB Pwned"
we didnt go out and spend $50 bucks to have to play the odd game on a lan,
cmon be rational here.
and of course you dont mind "our play style" because we dont effect you, non-cheaters are cannon fodder for cheaters... thats the whole point.
ANYONE could go out and dl some hacks, but some people pride themselves on overcoming odds with skill rather than some exploit of the system.
its just a sad state of affairs the world has people like that.

[Warbie]

Do you read your posts -[PM.enigma]- ?? Practice what your preach.

Was there a need for all that retard/leet crap? I'm sure you could make your point without coming across like a complete prick.

As i'm blatantly trolling, do I get a special flame too?? :)

[XShrike]

I have never understood why ppl cheat on multiplayer games. Whats the point? Ooh wow you are kicking everyones ass because you are cheating not because of skill. To me this is completely against multiplayer. It is supposed to challenge your skills against other skilled players and cheating, to me, defies all logic.